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Old 03-15-2020, 05:59 PM
BravoLimaDelta BravoLimaDelta is offline
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Originally Posted by PeterEnergy View Post
Yup. That's about it.

Do you have a better rejoinder that I could learn from?
No, I guess Hillary will have to do.
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Old 03-15-2020, 07:40 PM
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Lol! And another one ignores the elephant in the room.

I’d much rather stick with the Faith that keeps ALL the Tradition and Scripture through the Magesterium intact, and the one which is continually shown favor by Our Lord and also through Our Lady. There WILL come a day when you will no longer be able to ignore what is.

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No diatribe intended and as a former RC, I fully understand your boredom.

Recent converts to the papacy would do well to dedicate more time learning the history of its theological developments rather than boasting of their own addictions to them. As long as we draw breath in this life, there is still time to repent. Just saying.

Despite what may be the current RC teaching on the matter, most agree that the proto-protestant was Martin Luther, an ordained RC priest and Augustinian monk. He was not an Orthodox Christian at any point during his earthly life. Indeed, he took Latin Papalism its next level: protestantism.

The Orthodox Church, in accordance with the love for man which characterizes her, permits prayer for those who have cut themselves off from her, i.e. for heretics and schismatics. But prayers in what regard? Prayers that they convert to the Orthodox Faith before the end of their lives.

"Illumine with the light of grace all apostates from the Orthodox Faith, and those blinded by pernicious heresies, and draw them to Thyself, and unite them to Thy Holy, Apostolic, Catholic Church."

Kyrie Eleison.
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Old 03-16-2020, 07:56 AM
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Lol! And another one ignores the elephant in the room.

I’d much rather stick with the Faith that keeps ALL the Tradition and Scripture through the Magesterium intact, and the one which is continually shown favor by Our Lord and also through Our Lady. There WILL come a day when you will no longer be able to ignore what is.

God bless
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Yet an “addiction” for well over a billion people of which I am one. Yes, I am happily addicted to the Church Jesus founded, the Church from which the Orthodox and then the Protestants left.
It gets positively boring to listen to the diatribes hurled at the RCC. Yet when I constantly bring up, which continue to this day, the appearances and miraculous healings, Eucharistic Miracles, Saints like Padre Pio, Faustina and Bernadette, the well documented Miracle of the Sun at Fatima and the halting of child sacrifices of the Mayan culture with millions of conversions at Mt. Tabor among countless other blessings of Jesus....no one responds. Because you have only two real choices. Either deny that any of these things happened (with zero rational argument to give in support of that position), or accept the fact that Jesus is continuing to watch over His Church, the Church He founded, even with all its warts and mistakes.

I have no animosity towards anyone. I continue to pray that Jesus extends His Love to everyone and allows them to see and understand His continuing interaction with His Church. May He decrease our hate and increase our humility.

God, please bless us all.
CabinetMaker.

The Church before the Roman Catholic split was ALL Orthodox. The Creed proves it. If you still don't see this after all our discussions on this subject (in so many threads), you are not just blind, you as a Catholic are a proud rebel just like your offspring the Protestants. They learned from you.

The Roman Catholic did NOT keep the FAITH intact. Their entire string of never ending theological novelties proves this conclusion correct. These novelties came from the proudness of some people's souls that thought they can THINK OUT/THINK IN God and His Law by themselves alone.

All these thinking outside the Holy Spirit gift gave us the novelties of the Roman Catholic and then Protestant skewed theology and praxis in opposition to how the Original Church was. Pleas read more history of the Church and how things were both in theology and in administration of the Church.

As for some miracles that you are bringing to our attention, I have to tell you that I read many things that are concerning about them. The jury is not favorable that they are from God. More like deceiving from the devils, as the Bible and later the Fathers warn us about Angels of light and impersonations. There are certainly thousands of genuine miracles (I have many books with them). The apparitions (and other miracles) you are talking about seems to be of the other kind. I don't say they are, but they seem or at least there are questions about their validity. This is a long discussion.
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Old 03-16-2020, 08:06 AM
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Who assisted Eve with childbearing in the Garden of Eden? It's possible, in Mary's or Elizabeth's case (and many other cases), that no assistance was needed at all. It's all speculative but I see no reason why Mary couldn't have helped in the delivery of a baby. She likely learned basic "medicine" (for lack of a better word) from older and wiser and more experienced women in her life (mother, grandmother, community elders, etc.).
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Old 03-16-2020, 08:13 AM
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Did Mary Deliver John (Midwife for Elizabeth)?

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Originally Posted by cat_1978 View Post
CabinetMaker.

The Church before the Roman Catholic split was ALL Orthodox.

The Roman Catholic did NOT keep the FAITH intact. .... This is a long discussion.
It is amazing how no matter the question, the conversation goes back to Orthodoxy. Thank you Cat for calling the Catholics out on their blatant hypocrisy.

The problem with my question, to some is, to justify why it even matters. To the Catholics, the problem with my question is that it does not follow their church tradition. The problem with the Catholic church tradition is that it changes, as Cat pointed out via the Creed. It's a thing of beauty!

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Old 03-16-2020, 11:48 AM
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CabinetMaker.

The Church before the Roman Catholic split was ALL Orthodox. The Creed proves it. If you still don't see this after all our discussions on this subject (in so many threads), you are not just blind, you as a Catholic are a proud rebel just like your offspring the Protestants. They learned from you.

The Roman Catholic did NOT keep the FAITH intact. Their entire string of never ending theological novelties proves this conclusion correct. These novelties came from the proudness of some people's souls that thought they can THINK OUT/THINK IN God and His Law by themselves alone.

All these thinking outside the Holy Spirit gift gave us the novelties of the Roman Catholic and then Protestant skewed theology and praxis in opposition to how the Original Church was. Pleas read more history of the Church and how things were both in theology and in administration of the Church.

As for some miracles that you are bringing to our attention, I have to tell you that I read many things that are concerning about them. The jury is not favorable that they are from God. More like deceiving from the devils, as the Bible and later the Fathers warn us about Angels of light and impersonations. There are certainly thousands of genuine miracles (I have many books with them). The apparitions (and other miracles) you are talking about seems to be of the other kind. I don't say they are, but they seem or at least there are questions about their validity. This is a long discussion.

Cat,

“You will know them by their fruits.”

Or do you believe that Satan was playing 4d chess? Do you think he would over and over tell everyone to pray to Jesus? Do you sincerely think that Jesus would allow that? (Think hard before you answer)

You have a much higher trust in the Evil One, “A liar, and the Father of all lies”, than either Jesus, or I.

”You will know them by their fruits.”


And we all know that if you can choose your jury, you will get the outcome that you want.
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Old 03-16-2020, 01:26 PM
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Cat,

“You will know them by their fruits.”

Or do you believe that Satan was playing 4d chess? Do you think he would over and over tell everyone to pray to Jesus? Do you sincerely think that Jesus would allow that? (Think hard before you answer)

You have a much higher trust in the Evil One, “A liar, and the Father of all lies”, than either Jesus, or I.

”You will know them by their fruits.”


And we all know that if you can choose your jury, you will get the outcome that you want.
Are you talking about the fruits of the Catholic Church in general or the fruits of these specific "miracles"?
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Old 03-16-2020, 01:33 PM
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It is amazing how no matter the question, the conversation goes back to Orthodoxy. Thank you Cat for calling the Catholics out on their blatant hypocrisy.
It is because orthodoxy is the Historic Church of all Christendom until 1054. So it is inevitable to go back in time for some insight. And when you go you find Orthodoxy.

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Originally Posted by PeterEnergy View Post
The problem with my question, to some is, to justify why it even matters. To the Catholics, the problem with my question is that it does not follow their church tradition. The problem with the Catholic church tradition is that it changes, as Cat pointed out via the Creed. It's a thing of beauty!

If you like Orthodoxy so much then why you fight against it?
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Old 03-16-2020, 04:58 PM
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Originally Posted by PeterEnergy View Post
Did Mary Deliver John (Midwife for Elizabeth)?

It is amazing how no matter the question, the conversation goes back to Orthodoxy. Thank you Cat for calling the Catholics out on their blatant hypocrisy.

The problem with my question, to some is, to justify why it even matters. To the Catholics, the problem with my question is that it does not follow their church tradition. The problem with the Catholic church tradition is that it changes, as Cat pointed out via the Creed. It's a thing of beauty!
There is no PROBLEM with your question. I simply miss the point of it. As a RC for many decades, I have never heard this matter discussed nor any doctrine advanced, one way or the other. I have been Orthodox for almost seven years and likewise have not heard this addressed by our catechists, clergy or anyone else. This appears to be one of the many issues where individual Christians can believe anything they want, like all those high-profile "miracles" that CM itemized earlier.

Orthodoxy, unlike Papal Catholicism, has never attempted to dogmatize everything on earth and beyond. Authentic Christian doctrine is only formulated and proclaimed to protect the faithful against specific heresies that have appeared within the Church.

If you are trying to troll the RC brethren into a "gotcha" response, there are dozens of issues upon which they are more vulnerable than this one. Watch and learn.
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Old 03-16-2020, 05:39 PM
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There is no PROBLEM with your question. I simply miss the point of it. ... Watch and learn.
This post reveals what is wrong with religious dialogue today, a disturbing combination of arrogance and ignorance.

If you do not grasp the point of the question - after it has been explained to you - feel free to frequent other posts.

I trust even one as intellectually stunted as you appear to be sees the irony in telling me to watch and learn after admitting you miss the point of the question.

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If you are trying to troll the RC brethren
Friend, you are the troll here. These aren't the droids you're looking for. Move along.
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Old 03-16-2020, 05:42 PM
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If you like Orthodoxy so much then why you fight against it?
Orthodoxy is fine as far as it goes. It's practitioners are the problem. They don't practice what they preach. See mirror.



The practitioners that most attract me are Sloth, AJ, Ohioman, esheldon and Truck Vet.
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Old 03-16-2020, 05:52 PM
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Are you talking about the fruits of the Catholic Church in general or the fruits of these specific "miracles"?

I am specifically referring to the results, for example, of the visits of the Virgin Mary.

I have no doubt that Jesus has provided many, many miracles all over the world, and would never be surprised if His gifts were increased to those of us who remain closest to His teaching.

As to the Miracles associated with specific visitations and Shrines, we know they are pure gifts from God which also validate those supernatural occurrences.
Again, we do not need such gifts to prove our Faith. Jesus gives them when He chooses. Often answering prayers, but also to reinforce the truth and validity of a major tenant of our Faith, such as the Eucharistic Miracles. Nothing backs up the belief in the True Presence than the actual physical transformation of a Eucharist.

Now answer my question. Do you maintain that the Church investigated and approved visits, messages and miracles are works of satan?
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Old 03-16-2020, 05:55 PM
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This post reveals...
I have asked you twice and you have yet to respond. Why is the resolution of this matter important to you, one way or the other? What part of your life is balanced over the consensus of THIS forum on THIS question?

If you would be kind enough to state your position on this critical matter (as your mind sees it), I will promptly concur, and we can ALL move on. Otherwise, just post your mailing address and I will promptly send you a dollar.

Just don't cry.
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Old 03-16-2020, 05:56 PM
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Now answer my question. Do you maintain that the Church investigated and approved visits, messages and miracles are works of satan?
Honestly, that sounds like a great question - for a separate thread. Thx.
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Old 03-17-2020, 08:25 AM
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I have asked you twice and you have yet to respond. Why is the resolution of this matter important to you, one way or the other? What part of your life is balanced over the consensus of THIS forum on THIS question?

If you would be kind enough to state your position on this critical matter (as your mind sees it), I will promptly concur, and we can ALL move on. Otherwise, just post your mailing address and I will promptly send you a dollar.

Just don't cry.
Its called theological diarrhea. A thing Peter has in buckets.
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Old 03-17-2020, 08:27 AM
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I am specifically referring to the results, for example, of the visits of the Virgin Mary.

I have no doubt that Jesus has provided many, many miracles all over the world, and would never be surprised if His gifts were increased to those of us who remain closest to His teaching.

As to the Miracles associated with specific visitations and Shrines, we know they are pure gifts from God which also validate those supernatural occurrences.
Again, we do not need such gifts to prove our Faith. Jesus gives them when He chooses. Often answering prayers, but also to reinforce the truth and validity of a major tenant of our Faith, such as the Eucharistic Miracles. Nothing backs up the belief in the True Presence than the actual physical transformation of a Eucharist.

Now answer my question. Do you maintain that the Church investigated and approved visits, messages and miracles are works of satan?
Please start a thread on this question so that we do not hijack Peter's useless OP question with an actual meaty subject. I don't want to give him the satisfaction to improve his crappy posts. let theological diarrhea be theological diarrhea. Don't mix it with good stuff.
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Old 03-17-2020, 09:28 AM
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Too gracious, as always, my friend. How Christian of you.
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Old 03-17-2020, 01:05 PM
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Please start a thread on this question so that we do not hijack Peter's useless OP question with an actual meaty subject. I don't want to give him the satisfaction to improve his crappy posts. let theological diarrhea be theological diarrhea. Don't mix it with good stuff.
Yeah, but you know Peter...his real problem is being unable to differentiate the things that are important and those that are in a way just fun speculation. For example, his little diatribe on Adoptionism.

In all fairness, I do occasionally muse on things that truly have no bearing on Salvation, but we know had to have been.

For example, not a word in Scripture, but did Jesus exhibit the “terrible twos”?
Hit His thumb with a hammer? Come running into the house yelling “I’m hungry! What’s for dinner?” Complain that they were out of toilet paper?

Yet Scripture does explicitly state that Elizabeth was in her sixth month when Mary conceived, and that Mary stayed for three months. Why were those numbers, apparently unimportant and unnecessary, specifically mentioned?
Since there is nothing in Scripture “unimportant”, there must be some reason for it.

It may not be important for our goal of Heaven, but it does help to remind me that our Lord WAS human. He had a human family, played with the neighbor’s kids, probably skinned His knees and ran to Mom for comfort. For me, things like this only enhance my awe that the Creator of the Universe thinks so much of us as to not only join us, but willingly suffered so cruelly at our hands to give us the chance of Salvation. This is why I am fully convinced that Jesus continually works, to this day, to remind us of what we must do for our Salvation and that of the whole world. Both publicly (Fatima) and privately (Faustina Kowalska). Through hundreds of direct interventions to powers and graces bestowed on individuals (Padre Pio).

So, off this thread. (We know how derailment never happens in the Religious section...)

I’ve no interest in starting a thread where folks can try to imply evil underpinnings to Our Lady or those who bring the messages of Christ to our troubled times. That will only damage them further. Let us all be the Watchmen Jesus wants us to be.
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Old 03-17-2020, 01:23 PM
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I’ve no interest in starting a thread where folks can try to imply evil underpinnings to Our Lady or those who bring the messages of Christ to our troubled times. That will only damage them further. Let us all be the Watchmen Jesus wants us to be.
You can always PM me for a serious conversation.
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