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Old 03-09-2020, 03:37 PM
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I cited at least two important commands earlier.
Again, how do you allow for the scripture passages I cited not to be at odds with your particular understanding of the passages you cited?
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Old 03-09-2020, 04:10 PM
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Again, how do you allow for the scripture passages I cited not to be at odds with your particular understanding of the passages you cited?

As stated earlier ... if God commands His followers to create an ornament for a tabernacle or temple ... then His followers should comply. When God clearly commands them to NOT create an image then they're wise to obey His command.
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Old 03-09-2020, 04:41 PM
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I have no problem with icons or kissing icons
It is your made-up denomination
I can respect that

I think it to be foolish at a minimum
But again, I will point out how uncharitable the ortho members are to other denominations
All denominations are miguided without exception

If the ortho members want respect, then give respect
Give respect, get respect
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Old 03-09-2020, 04:47 PM
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Again, how do you allow for the scripture passages I cited not to be at odds with your particular understanding of the passages you cited?
None of the passages have anything to do with kissing or veneration
The were, for the most part demonstrations of God's ultimate soverginity and representation of ultimate reality or temporal authority.

Complete fail to address the peculiar orthodox practices of icons and kissing icons
Super weak sauce
You can do better
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Old 03-09-2020, 07:19 PM
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As stated earlier ... I attended several Orthodox services in which people were not only bowing to pictures and statues but kissing them. What you're saying is that God didn't quite have it right when He forbade the creation of graven images. What you're saying is that it's okay as long as we see them as god. But that's sorta what I've been warning against all along.
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Old 03-10-2020, 07:33 AM
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The is no Bibical record of anyone kissing anything inanimate let alone "venerating" it.
This video just proves that point
Why not be truthful
This kissing and veneration is a non-bibical denominational tradition
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Old 03-10-2020, 08:45 AM
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As stated earlier ... I attended several Orthodox services in which people were not only bowing to pictures and statues but kissing them. What you're saying is that God didn't quite have it right when He forbade the creation of graven images. What you're saying is that it's okay as long as we see them as god. But that's sorta what I've been warning against all along.
There are two forms of kiss with two meanings.

1. One is the brotherly kiss:

"Greet one another with the kiss of love. Peace to all of you who are in Christ."

Are the Saints part of the Christian Church? Then we can kiss them. Does it matter we do it on an icon? No. We are allowed same as a soldier kisses his wife picture or children picture.

2.The Worship kiss.

"and standing behind Him at His feet, weeping, she began to wet His feet with her tears, and kept wiping them with the hair of her head, and kissing His feet and anointing them with the perfume." Luke 7:38

"You gave Me no kiss; but she, since the time I came in, has not ceased to kiss My feet."


We are allowed to kiss God, the Image of God or anything that reminds us of Him. It is considered Right Worship.

We are not allowed to worship kiss OTHER gods, because they are not really gods but creatures.

When we kiss an icon we can employ both kiss manners and in fact we do them both with one kiss.

I hope I explained you in a revelatory way what is happening when the Orthodox kiss their icons. Further misunderstanding from your part on this subject might be just your bias against true worship.
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Old 03-10-2020, 08:51 AM
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Why not to the saint? I've bowed to my Asian mother-in-law. Heck, those folks bow to everyone. The Bible gives accounts of people bowing to another person.
The bowing is a form of respect. And ALL creatures are equal in the eyes of God. The bowing (giving respect to something greater than yourself) is to the Image of God in the creature not to the creature.
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Old 03-10-2020, 08:58 AM
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The Saints are the clearest expressions of the Image of God in Man.

We do not bow to the image of the icon.

We do not bow even to the Saint that it is represented in the icon.

We bow to the Image of God that we see clear, alive and visible in the Saint because of his/her life and relationship with God. So when we bow to icons we bow directly to God, as if Jesus is there in front of us. This is a sign of profound reverence to God not an idolater activity as you so wrongly understood it.

If you saw God in the face of a golden calf ... would you bow?


Regardless of your answer ... can you see how a Christian might perceive your actions if they saw you bowing to an image or a statue? Even if YOU believed you were bowing to God can you see how easy it would be for others to think you're bowing to an idol?


Paul warns us about giving the "appearance of evil."

1 Thessalonians 5:22, "Abstain from all appearance of evil."
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Old 03-10-2020, 09:08 AM
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The bowing is a form of respect. And ALL creatures are equal in the eyes of God. The bowing (giving respect to something greater than yourself) is to the Image of God in the creature not to the creature.

Rats are equal to humans in the eyes of God?
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Old 03-10-2020, 09:27 AM
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As stated earlier ... I attended several Orthodox services in which people were not only bowing to pictures and statues but kissing them. What you're saying is that God didn't quite have it right when He forbade the creation of graven images. What you're saying is that it's okay as long as we see them as god. But that's sorta what I've been warning against all along.
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Originally Posted by ActionJackson View Post
As stated earlier ... if God commands His followers to create an ornament for a tabernacle or temple ... then His followers should comply. When God clearly commands them to NOT create an image then they're wise to obey His command.
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The is no Bibical record of anyone kissing anything inanimate let alone "venerating" it.
This video just proves that point
Why not be truthful
This kissing and veneration is a non-bibical denominational tradition
Your first objection is typical of the Protestants when they try to say that the Bible forbids icons or images and refer to the Ten Commandments as the basis for their argument. This isn't a new concept and was debated in the Church until at the Seventh Ecumenical Council the position of images in the worship of the Church and their relationship to the second commandment was clarified.

The Incarnation is a game-changer. Christ made visible the invisible G-d, and thus it is allowed that images of Him be depicted.

Icons depict real people. The second commandment protects us from creating false gods that replace the true G-d. Icons depict real people and events that draw us to the true G-d.

Your second objection is to our relationship to icons. Worship and veneration are not the same. Worshiping an idol is the equivalent of replacing G-d with a created thing.

Venerating an icon is an act of respect and love that glorifies the Creator.

The Protestants remain iconoclasts and I'm sure nothing I've written here is going to change their position that was denounced 1500 years ago at the Seventh Ecumenical Council.
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Old 03-10-2020, 09:31 AM
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If you saw God in the face of a golden calf ... would you bow?


Regardless of your answer ... can you see how a Christian might perceive your actions if they saw you bowing to an image or a statue? Even if YOU believed you were bowing to God can you see how easy it would be for others to think you're bowing to an idol?


Paul warns us about giving the "appearance of evil."

1 Thessalonians 5:22, "Abstain from all appearance of evil."
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Rats are equal to humans in the eyes of God?

All that we said is about humans, and you know it. You are inserting animals in the discussion for what reason? You do not have an argument left. That is why. the Image of God is in Man alone on Earth.

As for how a "Christian" might perceive True Worship, well that depend on how close to True Worship is that "Christian". Is he REALLY a Christian? Or he just thinks he is?
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Old 03-10-2020, 10:15 AM
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How pathetic
Using Bible verses indicating that Early Christians,
Who had zero icons
Were kissing other Christians, as described in the Bible, is the not the same as kissing and "venerating" inanimate things
Kissing inanimate objects during a denominational religious service, questionable at best
You all are not that stupid

Why contort the Bible, truth and reality to fit your non-Bibical religious denominational tradition?????
You just keep proving my point
I do not care what inanimate thing you kiss or "venerate"
Just knock off your denominational bashing
And act like, or actually love the Body of Christ
Your Brothers and Sisters in Christ
Wake up
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Old 03-10-2020, 10:50 AM
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How pathetic
Using Bible verses indicating that Early Christians,
Who had zero icons
Were kissing other Christians, as described in the Bible, is the not the same as kissing and "venerating" inanimate things
Kissing inanimate objects during a denominational religious service, questionable at best
You all are not that stupid

Why contort the Bible, truth and reality to fit your non-Bibical religious denominational tradition?????
You just keep proving my point
I do not care what inanimate thing you kiss or "venerate"
Just knock off your denominational bashing
And act like, or actually love the Body of Christ
Your Brothers and Sisters in Christ
Wake up
If anybody should wake up it is the protestant crowd of last 500 years. The Church was there before them (2000 years) and it will not bend to their whims. They better return to Church before is too late and lose their fate to obvious heresies and pride.
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Old 03-10-2020, 10:55 AM
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Your first objection is typical of the Protestants when they try to say that the Bible forbids icons or images and refer to the Ten Commandments as the basis for their argument. This isn't a new concept and was debated in the Church until at the Seventh Ecumenical Council the position of images in the worship of the Church and their relationship to the second commandment was clarified.

The Incarnation is a game-changer. Christ made visible the invisible G-d, and thus it is allowed that images of Him be depicted.

Icons depict real people. The second commandment protects us from creating false gods that replace the true G-d. Icons depict real people and events that draw us to the true G-d.

Your second objection is to our relationship to icons. Worship and veneration are not the same. Worshiping an idol is the equivalent of replacing G-d with a created thing.

Venerating an icon is an act of respect and love that glorifies the Creator.

The Protestants remain iconoclasts and I'm sure nothing I've written here is going to change their position that was denounced 1500 years ago at the Seventh Ecumenical Council.

Just because a majority of them present at the "7th Ecumenical Council" voted FOR something doesn't mean that they were correct. The majority of Americans voted for Obama a few years back but you and I know just how wrong they were.


We need not "venerate" things in order to honor God. Why not simply venerate God minus the talismans?
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Old 03-10-2020, 11:06 AM
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The first Church at Jerusalem had zero icons
Why keep defending the indefensible
So your denomination made something up that is non-Bibical
I do not care
All denominations make stuff up
orthodox = made up denomination that has close to zero to do with the First Church in Jerusalem
The Church that Jesus established
For those who never checked it out, watch a YouTube video of a orthodox denominational service and then read Acts
Who are you to believe, The Bible or the orthodox pageantry and icon kissing/veneration ?????
The Original Church is the real deal
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Old 03-10-2020, 11:06 AM
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Just because a majority of them present at the "7th Ecumenical Council" voted FOR something doesn't mean that they were correct. The majority of Americans voted for Obama a few years back but you and I know just how wrong they were.


We need not "venerate" things in order to honor God. Why not simply venerate God minus the talismans?
Your statement that the holy icons are "talismans" demonstrates your disrespect as well as your ignorance and the ignorance of the myriad Protestant cults. There is no sense in discussing this any further due to your typical Protestant disdain for the 1500 year history, teachings, and traditions of the Church before Luther coupled with your insults to the holy icons.
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Old 03-10-2020, 11:08 AM
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If anybody should wake up it is the protestant crowd of last 500 years. The Church was there before them (2000 years) and it will not bend to their whims. They better return to Church before is too late and lose their fate to obvious heresies and pride.

And non-Orthodox Christians existed before the Orthodox church. Adam and Eve were the first sinners and they were first in line. Being "before" someone doesn't make them more correct.
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Old 03-10-2020, 11:22 AM
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And non-Orthodox Christians existed before the Orthodox church. Adam and Eve were the first sinners and they were first in line. Being "before" someone doesn't make them more correct.
This is precisely why I dropped out of this forum for a couple of months. It's really a waste of time and energy dealing with these Protestants. I have to salute Cat, Weasels, and Keysor for staying in here and (futile as it may be) trying to help and correct these Protestants. Sola Scriptura has created total chaos in the Protestant world and we should just keep ourselves isolated from them. They are a disease worse than coronavirus! LOL

We should focus our energy in discussions with the Roman Catholics. Those may end in arguments and mutual recriminations on a number of topics, but the bottom line is that we have a great deal in common with the Catholics, including over a millennium as an undivided Church.
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Old 03-10-2020, 11:25 AM
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This is precisely why I dropped out of this forum for a couple of months. It's really a waste of time and energy dealing with these Protestants. I have to salute Cat, Weasels, and Keysor for staying in here and (futile as it may be) trying to help and correct these Protestants. Sola Scriptura has created total chaos in the Protestant world and we should just keep ourselves isolated from them. They are a disease worse than coronavirus! LOL

We should focus our energy in discussions with the Roman Catholics. Those may end in arguments and mutual recriminations on a number of topics, but the bottom line is that we have a great deal in common with the Catholics, including over a millennium as an undivided Church.

See ya!! Have a nice day.
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