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Old 05-13-2017, 04:10 PM
PalmettoTree PalmettoTree is offline
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So you never had a physics class right? There aren't any incoming electrons to be sent to ground . Ever seen the Apollo moon landing, watched satellite TV or used a GPS? EM radiation doesn't involve the flow of electrons- it's just a voltage and magnetic wave. When the wave encounters a conductor it will move electrons in that conductor.

and no, a YouTube video doesn't make me doubt 50 years of physics.

BTW, I've tested enclosures under a 50kV/m field and it worked fine with no ground ( it can skew the test results).
Yes I have had a few physics courses, I carefully chose the Youtube video for the person's credentials. (http://www.paulos.net). My son has a degree in physics and is in the military. I chose not to use the appeal to authority fallacy but since you challenged me there you have it.

Having said that if you have gone to the trouble to test at 50kV/m please give us the write up and other evidence as to what you found works. Most importantly describe exactly how you did your test. I am sure you know publishing such texting for others to duplicate is how scientist validate each other's work. Maybe you can not only show your own work but the work of others proving you right. I am sure Professor Paulos would be interested. Maybe you can even get him to take down is video.
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Old 05-13-2017, 07:00 PM
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Originally Posted by PalmettoTree View Post
Yes I have had a few physics courses, I carefully chose the Youtube video for the person's credentials. (http://www.paulos.net). My son has a degree in physics and is in the military. I chose not to use the appeal to authority fallacy but since you challenged me there you have it.

Having said that if you have gone to the trouble to test at 50kV/m please give us the write up and other evidence as to what you found works. Most importantly describe exactly how you did your test. I am sure you know publishing such texting for others to duplicate is how scientist validate each other's work. Maybe you can not only show your own work but the work of others proving you right. I am sure Professor Paulos would be interested. Maybe you can even get him to take down is video.
So in your physics classes where did these electrons come from- feel free to ask your son for help. Any advanced physics book will have the equation for the magnetic and electrical fields. You will not find equations for the current fields ( in free space)

Or do a thought experiment, it was good enough for Einstein. We sent pictures from the moon via RF. There is no substance in outer space to conduct electrons. So with no path for electrins to flow from the moon to the earth, how did we get those pictures back? (Hams bounce signals off the moon daily.)

As far as testing the emp enclosures, we purchased several under a contract requiring a first article test at a an EMP simulator. The vendor assembled the room with hammers and cordless screwdrivers under the test antenna( I think, it may have been on the wood pallet, and they forked the pallet in place.) we instrumented the inside (10 kHz to 1GHz, IIRC). The navy's contractors were responsible for certifying the EMP amplitude ( I think it was generally fixed at 50Kv/m anyway). Both myself and a representative from the NSA witnessed the test ( 2 of the rooms would later be TEMPEST certified)- I have no idea why exactally they showed up, I was not involved in the TEMPEST certification. We then conducted an impressed current test- put say 50mV at 1MHz from the bottom back right corner to the top front left. And measured the fields inside Since we got 66 dB of shielding with the EMP pulse, vs a required 60 dB, we could make ( safely and legally) the impressed current measurements in the field, as long as the fields inside didn't exceeded those done at FAT by more than 6 dB, we knew we maintained 60 dB of shielding ( in the field we start drilling holes' adding power and ground, and many of the units have been moved, one at least 3 times.).

Note these units are grounded in the field because they are connected to giant HF antennas, some over a 100' in diameter, often with gain over the full HF spectrum. The feed lines will conduct electrons onto the enclosure, and we need to ground these currents for employee safety ( though most of the energy is expected to be removed by EMP protectors at the base of the antenna, and choked ( and shielded) by extensive use of rigid galvanized steel conduit. Even if this were just a lockup for tools, it would be grounded for electrical safety.

Grounds can make the shielding worse, if they act as an antenna, and feed current onto the enclosure- we reduce the chance of this by using multiple ground connections of different lengths.

And no, I'm not posting any test reports, they were Sensitive but Unclassified at the time. The test procedure and 60dB is standard government requirements- and the 66dB was the manufacturers estimate- the measured value was close. I can post pictures of one of the rooms that was not used for classified communications if any one is interested. The secure ones just add some mirrors and see through floor tiles ( if surrounded by a raised floor), plus a beefed up door.
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Old 05-13-2017, 08:08 PM
PalmettoTree PalmettoTree is offline
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No need to ask. The electrons are already here as they are in copper wire. These electrons move along the wire when there is a potential difference.

An EMP can produce 4 types of energy. The question is which of these four will manifest itself given the cause of the EMP.

Depending to the strength of the EMP the energy transferred to things within our atmosphere will vary. Regardless this energy in most cases will follow the least resistance. That said enough energy can cause a gap jump.

The real unknown it the magnetic part of an EMP. There is no insulator for a magnetic field. (see Maxwell's Equations) Which very basically explains how an EMP can be transported through space and that magnetism has not insulator but only can be somewhat redirected.

As you said, "these units are grounded in the field"... "Grounds can make the shielding worse, if they act as an antenna..." So it seems in spite of the fact that the grounds may or may not act as an antenna they are still grounded.

I am sticking with grounding. You may not ground your's. I doubt we (well you might be young) I will live long enough to see which of us is right but there is a lot of quantum physics that way. Keep in mind lighting is a low frequency EMP. We protect from lighting by grounding. If one would to presuppose you are correct for very high frequency EMP with a lot more power than a severe lighting strike, what are the odds?

So you may or may not be right but even if you are grounding will help not hurt most occurrences of EMPs. There is a blind squirrel with an acorn somewhere.
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Old 10-13-2019, 07:36 PM
skypuncher skypuncher is offline
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Default A few things about EMP

First thing you need to know about shielding is- it must have a earth ground to be effective. A galvanized trashcan won't do anything unless you ground it to it's own ground stake and the 4-6ga wire must be less than 6ft long. You see, for a shield to work it must make a circuit for the EMP to go to, and that circuit the pulse is searching for is the earth.
Also- all wires that are 6ft and longer (in your car, and anywhere else) will collect enough voltage to fry sensitive electronics. All grounding wires you use must be 6ft or less. All wires in your car that are longer than 6ft should have a heavy duty cutoff switch mid point somewhere to shorten it, maybe every 2 ft, (turn on the switches to operate vehicle). That should harden the car when it's not in use.
To harden a car as it's operating involves a lot of complicated copper screening around harnesses, heavy duty diodes, and bleed apparatus that I'm still working on to harden my vehicle.
Copper screen should be pure copper and very fine (to block pulse). The formula for copper screen is this- The mesh size must be 1/100th of the full wavelength (of the EMF) to begin blocking it. That formula works with radio/microwave/ any waves in the EM spectrum (EMP).
It's a lot of work.
Must be grounded by it's own stake, not house ground.
But it's worth it.
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Old 10-13-2019, 07:43 PM
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This is the best shielding, a Faraday cage, in action. But you can use the same principles with car harnesses and other wire groups to protect.
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Old 10-13-2019, 08:08 PM
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Originally Posted by skypuncher View Post
First thing you need to know about shielding is- it must have a earth ground to be effective. A galvanized trashcan won't do anything unless you ground it to it's own ground stake and the 4-6ga wire must be less than 6ft long. You see, for a shield to work it must make a circuit for the EMP to go to, and that circuit the pulse is searching for is the earth.
Also- all wires that are 6ft and longer (in your car, and anywhere else) will collect enough voltage to fry sensitive electronics. All grounding wires you use must be 6ft or less. All wires in your car that are longer than 6ft should have a heavy duty cutoff switch mid point somewhere to shorten it, maybe every 2 ft, (turn on the switches to operate vehicle). That should harden the car when it's not in use.
To harden a car as it's operating involves a lot of complicated copper screening around harnesses, heavy duty diodes, and bleed apparatus that I'm still working on to harden my vehicle.
Copper screen should be pure copper and very fine (to block pulse). The formula for copper screen is this- The mesh size must be 1/100th of the full wavelength (of the EMF) to begin blocking it. That formula works with radio/microwave/ any waves in the EM spectrum (EMP).
It's a lot of work.
Must be grounded by it's own stake, not house ground.
But it's worth it.
Failed physics huh?
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Old 10-13-2019, 10:41 PM
skypuncher skypuncher is offline
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This information came from years of reading in electromagnetic shielding research, my work with radio and microwave shielding, and -
conversations with highly qualified Engineers about shielding EMP and electromagnetic radiation.

If I got something wrong please share which part is flawed, I welcome the correction of any or all of this information.
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Old 10-13-2019, 11:43 PM
Christian Christian is offline
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I worked for 12 years as a microwave technician doing cable shielding tests on a weekly basis from 1Ghz to 18Ghz. Here's what I KNOW: a single layer of aluminum foil just doesn't shield. The best thing is fine bronze wool wrapped very tightly around the entire body of a microwave connector, at least 1/4" thick with no gaps visible, then outwardly wrapped by tape to prevent the wool from loosening. This is not practical for anything other than small parts. What I am going to go with for large stuff: the galvanized garbage can, only a tight continuous 1" diameter wad of metal wool compressed between the lid of the can and the lip (and overlapping at the ends). Sensitive electronics inside kept from touching the inside wall of the can. Ground the can as you are able, but I don't think that a low impedance ground is critical.
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Old 10-14-2019, 01:30 AM
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Yes, true about alum. foil. Bronze mesh I believe would be a good shielding gasket as well. Many enclosures use a special gasket of padded copper screen as a gap-fill to make it EM-tight.
I worked with microwave as well, for 7 years in 2.5 Ghz and roughly 12GHz to 14GHz- Uplink for DSNG news.
True about the ground- the case should be able to disperse the charge away from itself.
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Old 10-15-2019, 10:53 PM
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Originally Posted by skypuncher View Post
This information came from years of reading in electromagnetic shielding research, my work with radio and microwave shielding, and -
conversations with highly qualified Engineers about shielding EMP and electromagnetic radiation.

If I got something wrong please share which part is flawed, I welcome the correction of any or all of this information.
Bull****.

Have you ever heard of Airforce 1? NAOC? TACMO? AWACS? These are all strategic aircraft, all hardened and specifically tested against EMP, and they are not tethered to the ground with ground wires. Furthermore, all contain internal crypto gear which is also shielded.

If you canít understand the physics surely you get aircraft canít be grounded. And itís clearly obvious you donít get the physics- why do you say 4-6 ga wire- do you realize there is little difference in impedance at EMP freqs.

I donít know Iíve ever seen a Shielded enclosure within 6í of a earth ground ( we call it an earth electrode system). That would rule out 99.99% of the floor space available. I used to have a EMP hardened repeater on stone Mt, GA, with a NSA approved crypto module- it was easially 500í if not a thousand or more feet to the nearest earth ground. There was no requirement to even ground the crypto module. We survived thousands of lightning hits- the phone lines were not allways so lucky. It stayed in place for 20 years until encrypted cell phones and iridium sat phones, and to some degree geo politics rendered it obsolete.
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Old 10-15-2019, 11:23 PM
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Originally Posted by Christian View Post
I worked for 12 years as a microwave technician doing cable shielding tests on a weekly basis from 1Ghz to 18Ghz. Here's what I KNOW: a single layer of aluminum foil just doesn't shield. The best thing is fine bronze wool wrapped very tightly around the entire body of a microwave connector, at least 1/4" thick with no gaps visible, then outwardly wrapped by tape to prevent the wool from loosening. This is not practical for anything other than small parts. What I am going to go with for large stuff: the galvanized garbage can, only a tight continuous 1" diameter wad of metal wool compressed between the lid of the can and the lip (and overlapping at the ends). Sensitive electronics inside kept from touching the inside wall of the can. Ground the can as you are able, but I don't think that a low impedance ground is critical.
A single layer of aluminum foil is going to suck because it wonít be continuous- ALuminum either needs some really clean, or really high pressure joints to made a low impedance connection due to Aluminum forming an oxide layer that is an excellent insulator. With AL, you need to clean off the oxide layer, and use antioxidant( NoALOx is available at Home Depot), or you need high pressure- ideally across clean metal. Silver, and red metals form conductive oxides, and have much less problems- as does steel if it doesnít rust. AL foil, or foil tape will work if you get enough overlap so the joint looks like a capacitor- especially at EMP/RF freqs- much less so at low frequencies. It cheap and dirty, and not professional, but it works if done carefully, and not allowed to degrade.

I had some heliax connectors that were leaking at 1200 MHz (Lband SATCOM IFL freq). They were put together improperly, and were hundreds of feet and about 3 deg below a AN/FPS 117 radar that radiates about 5-10 million watts peak EIRP. It was 20 deg below, and I didnít have a reattachment kit. About 10 wraps of household AL foil and the interference was gone- I got at least 30dB of shielding. BTW, the soldered copper shield of the Healiax (LDF-4), was giving us at least a 100dB of shielding if the connectors were done right. The other option was to slide a piece of conduit over the bad connector, but that meant messing with the waterproofing. Copper pipe, EMT and AL foil all worked, but AL foil was quick and dirty. Soon as the Wx improved we redid the connectors. Sites been working for 4 years now.

In all honesty, until we ran the tests, no one knew if it would be possible to get enough shielding- Oh, yeah, the cable wasnít grounded- one end had a 50 ohm N connector load, and one end a battery power Keysite Spec An.
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Old 10-15-2019, 11:27 PM
PalmettoTree PalmettoTree is offline
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Do not wast your time and money on an EMP.
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Old 10-22-2019, 02:14 PM
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Just continue what I have been doing for a SHTF Event. I do need to stock seeds and canning jars with many extra lids.
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Old 10-22-2019, 03:19 PM
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Just continue what I have been doing for a SHTF Event. I do need to stock seeds and canning jars with many extra lids.
You are correct. Regardless of cause all SHTF will be the same. A disaster is not a SHTF. So planing for a flood is different than planning for a SHTF for example. You are spot on.
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Old 10-22-2019, 06:21 PM
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Just continue what I have been doing for a SHTF Event. I do need to stock seeds and canning jars with many extra lids.
I cannot speak highly enough of tattler reusable lids.
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Old 10-24-2019, 11:07 AM
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Of all the possibilities for TEOTWAWKI an EMP attack from either Iran of NK is the least likely and by a long shot.

You have a better chance of winning the lottery if you don't buy a ticket and hope to find the winning numbers lying on the ground

I knew a guy who knows for sure the Iranian navy is patrolling off the coast and ready to doom us all. He carries a full load of preps in his pickup 24/7
Seriously, Google the Iranian navy

If EMP nukes come our way it will begin a nuclear holocaust and that is worth prepping consideration more than an EMP nuke

A massive solar flare would be far more likely and that would mostly destroy the power grid not small electronics (contrary to popular myth)

If the worldwide grid goes down we will likley wake up wondering what happened and even die hard preppers will not be sure what is going on.

Having a thousands bucks cash in the safe is the best prep because we will have 24-48 hours to top off and hunker down getting those last few things like extra fuel for the generator and as much of anything as you can.
After 24 hours I wouldn't dare go out but some areas that might be up to 48 hours

I agree with the multi-tier food usage. Eat the fridge stuff ASAP then go to stuff that needs no cooking until the zombies die off
Mountain House/Wise etc mylar bag krap may not be the greatest but my guess is it will start tasting pretty good compared to insects and dubious plant leaves 4 months in

IMO
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Old 10-24-2019, 11:16 AM
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Having a thousands bucks cash in the safe is the best prep
IMO
I agree. Cash will be key to start.
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Old 10-28-2019, 08:11 PM
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I agree. Cash will be key to start.
Might be, might not be. Itís always a good idea to have cash on hand for all kinds reasons though.

The better thought is to have on hand all that you will need. If opportunity should present itself to get more things you WANT, then great. If not, no big deal.
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Old 10-30-2019, 11:07 AM
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I would certainly have cash on hand, as that can get you the last minute stuff that would be needed. However, I would recommend having nothing larger than $20 bills, since getting change back may not be possible - especially since very few people carry cash these days.

Apart from cash, I would also have "extras" for bartering when the cash does run out.

I haven't fully investigated it yet, but I do wonder what the military situation would be in the event of an EMP and if that Executive Order I heard about that allows the government to confiscate everyone's personal supplies for redistribution would go into effect?

If that is the case, and that EO is legit to legally confiscate everyone's personal supplies for redistribution, I would think it would be beneficial regardless, to have a cellar or various hidden caches of supplies off site that one can have.

In Florida, Louisiana and Texas mostly (possibly other states) being sea-level, cellars aren't that easy since you can hit water level pretty quick, so the hidden caches may be better than a cellar to hide supplies.

Happy Prepping,
SurviveThrive
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Old 10-30-2019, 12:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by country_boy View Post
So you never had a physics class right? There aren't any incoming electrons to be sent to ground . Ever seen the Apollo moon landing, watched satellite TV or used a GPS? EM radiation doesn't involve the flow of electrons- it's just a voltage and magnetic wave. When the wave encounters a conductor it will move electrons in that conductor.

and no, a YouTube video doesn't make me doubt 50 years of physics.

BTW, I've tested enclosures under a 50kV/m field and it worked fine with no ground ( it can skew the test results).
The thread is about potential damage caused by a high altitude EMP device. Essentially a nuclear fission bomb designed to produce a large amount of hard radiation.

The EMP effect was not originally predicted, it was observed during a high altitude nuc test in the pacific, and the mechanism was worked out later.

As I recall, the radiation hits the air molecules in the upper atmosphere, and this interaction produces the charge that overloads the power grid.
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