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Old 08-04-2019, 10:42 PM
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Here are pictures of my water filter expansion/chlorination kit. I put together two of these, because one is never enough of anything, unless of course we are considering wives, and in that case more than one is suicidal. Obviously these kits are not designed for backpacking along with all the other gear one may feel is necessary, they are for vehicle, or cart transport.



One kit packed. The bag is Condor brand.

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The stuff sack strapped to the bottom contains three 2.5 gallon vinyl coated nylon water buckets. The only choice for collapsible buckets other than vinyl was polyurethane coated, and according to what I could research on the subject, vinyl withstands chlorine exposure much better than polyurethane. These are for batch mixing high ppm chlorine, and then cutting it down to friendlier ppm levels.

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The packed contents of the main bag. I always run out of room in these kits I make, and that is a good thing at some point, as it limits things, keeps me from needing a tractor trailer rig to bug out in.

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On the left in the black pouches are flocculent packs, 24 per pouch, 48 total. Each treats 2.5 gallons of water, 120 gallons total. I am considering adding one more pouch of 24.

The brand is https://www.amazon.com/Purifier-Wate...=sr_1_2&sr=8-2 Yes, I purchased a whole box.

Here is the handbook for use, http://globalreach.med.umich.edu/sit...y%20Relief.pdf Ferric sulfate is the flocculent in these. The handbook was done by the University of Michigan 2013 Mexico clean water team.

The bottles contain each 8oz of, bone char, two bottles, 16oz total, and GAC, two bottles, 16oz total. These are for replacement with my small filtration kits carried on lbe.

The SS measuring cup with adequate handle for keeping ones fingers out of the high ppm chlorine solution, is a Stanley 24oz cook kit. https://www.amazon.com/Stanley-Adven...-search&sr=8-2

On the handle of the cup is a 100 micron filtration bag for prefiltering the water going into the buckets for chlorination. I need two of these in each kit.

The polypropylene vials in the bandoliers are, from the top down, military calcium hypochlorite, each brings 2.5 gallons of water to at least 31.2 ppm. There are twenty of these in two bandoliers. Note the glass vials are housed in PP vials with a cotton ball to prevent movement.

Next is ascorbic acid for chlorine neutralization, ten of these.

Last is potassium permanganate, ten vials, with the tiny vial of potassium permanganate encased in a larger vial, also with a cotton ball.

The bandoliers we made ourselves, from military elastic sewn to nylon webbing, with a grommet in one end. These are easy to make for various uses, such as in our first aid kits to hold different sized vials of medications.

On the right is a Sawyer .02 filter with quick disconnects, and a backflush syringe also with a quick disconnect. I may add another Sawyer .1 filter, or two.

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This kit contains enough supplies to chlorinate 360 gallons of water to an adequate level, not including the potassium permanganate, which would be my last choice for drinking water usage.

This kit augments my other water filtration kits, that are small and light enough to carry on lbe.

Well there you have it, any constructive criticisms are welcome.
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Old 08-13-2019, 08:38 PM
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It's been a while, 110 views and no comments.

I was really hoping that somebody had done something similar, and could point out something I didn't think of, or have some constructive criticisms about what I did come up with.

Really, I don't trust myself to think of everything, or get everything exactly right, who does?

I find it hard to believe I am the only one that has thought along these lines.

Maybe the entire concept is ridiculous, a waste of time and resources, and if you think so, tell me, and tell me why you think so. You may very well convince me.
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Old 08-14-2019, 01:32 AM
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It's been a while, 110 views and no comments.

I was really hoping that somebody had done something similar, and could point out something I didn't think of, or have some constructive criticisms about what I did come up with.

Really, I don't trust myself to think of everything, or get everything exactly right, who does?

I find it hard to believe I am the only one that has thought along these lines.

Maybe the entire concept is ridiculous, a waste of time and resources, and if you think so, tell me, and tell me why you think so. You may very well convince me.
To use the flock you will need a pail, are you carrying a pail?
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Old 08-14-2019, 04:05 AM
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To use the flock you will need a pail, are you carrying a pail?
He's got canvas pails.

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Maybe the entire concept is ridiculous, a waste of time and resources, and if you think so, tell me, and tell me why you think so. You may very well convince me.
Something that works can't be ridiculous. Chlorine works.

But a portable chlorine kit would not be popular. Mechanical filtration is just easier for small scale, and any mention of calcium hypochlorite brings to mind the hassles and headaches of dealing with it. It might be a useful kit at home in a cardboard box on a shelf, but for portable use a Sawyer handles the bioremediation job a lot easier, cheaper, and smaller.

In any case, you have too much gear to be dealing with tiny canvas buckets.

Pair the kit with a military Lyster Bag from Ebay or a military surplus store. Making 35 gallons at a pop for a large group in the field is a better use for a portable chlorine kit.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/USGI-Water-...-/202338609657

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Old 08-14-2019, 08:33 AM
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Looks very thorough. I am just starting into water filtration at the affordable level with 5 gallon buckets and water filters.

The issue I see is that there are a lot of particulars in this prep, and if something happens to you, would your significant other or kids be able to use it efficiently? Just a thought on preps for the group or family.

I have not done anything with chemicals yet, and I can see the value in this type of set-up, but that is a lot of different things going on for the random guy.
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Old 08-14-2019, 12:11 PM
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military calcium hypochlorite, each brings 2.5 gallons of water to at least 31.2 ppm.

.
31.2 ppm is too high for drinking water. Do you have a chlorine tester so you can get the chlorine down to safe levels of 4ppm or lower?
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Old 08-15-2019, 08:26 PM
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Looks very thorough. I am just starting into water filtration at the affordable level with 5 gallon buckets and water filters.

The issue I see is that there are a lot of particulars in this prep, and if something happens to you, would your significant other or kids be able to use it efficiently? Just a thought on preps for the group or family.

I have not done anything with chemicals yet, and I can see the value in this type of set-up, but that is a lot of different things going on for the random guy.
Thank you, this is exactly the kind of thing I was looking for in soliciting constructive criticism.

Yes, there is complexity in dealing with these chemicals, and I thought when I first conceived the idea for this kit, to make an instruction card, laminated, and tethered to the kit to address just what you brought up. But then I forgot all about it, and it needed to be addressed. So thanks again for reminding me. The instructions are formatted now, and I just need to get them laminated.

This isn't just for if I croak out and someone unfamiliar with the kit having to figure it out. Things that seem simple, or at least understandable in the comfort of my home, could easily be much more difficult to not make mistakes with while under duress.
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Old 08-15-2019, 09:51 PM
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31.2 ppm is too high for drinking water. Do you have a chlorine tester so you can get the chlorine down to safe levels of 4ppm or lower?
Thank you Stoveman, for reminding me to put the tester into the kit. Said tester is right there beside the kit on the table, almost lost in other gear.

I have two ways to test treated water. One is a Hach model CN-80 kit, and it tests for free and total chlorine, but because of its size, it stays home. The other tester is the military one, that tests for total chlorine, but is small enough to put in the kit.

Picture below of the military tester included in the military calcium hyopochlorite vial boxes. I have over 700 of these vials, and six testers.

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You are correct, 31.2 ppm is too high for human consumption, so dilution into the other buckets to get it down to more easily manageable levels if desired.

Theoretically, 40oz of water at 31.2ppm free chlorine, two 20oz cup fulls in the SS cup in the kit, added to 2.5 gallons(320oz) of untreated water in the second bucket, results in a total volume of water of 2.81 gallons(360oz), at 3.5 ppm total chlorine. This brings the water level to one inch from the top edge of the bucket.

So the bucket of water treated to 31.2 ppm is used to treat other water to a level that can be consumed safely. Now I have no intention of drinking chlorine if I don't have to, so the water will sit overnight to out gas, or be treated after an hour or so with ascorbic acid to neutralize the chlorine.

I realize that this is theoretical, and variance will occur in relation to the level of organics in any given water being treated. I include 100 micron filter bags to prefilter the water to be treated, and that should help some.
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Old 08-15-2019, 10:49 PM
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He's got canvas pails.



Something that works can't be ridiculous. Chlorine works.

But a portable chlorine kit would not be popular. Mechanical filtration is just easier for small scale, and any mention of calcium hypochlorite brings to mind the hassles and headaches of dealing with it. It might be a useful kit at home in a cardboard box on a shelf, but for portable use a Sawyer handles the bioremediation job a lot easier, cheaper, and smaller.

In any case, you have too much gear to be dealing with tiny canvas buckets.

Pair the kit with a military Lyster Bag from Ebay or a military surplus store. Making 35 gallons at a pop for a large group in the field is a better use for a portable chlorine kit.
Thank you for the critique Zeke, allow me to explain.

To be specific, the buckets are vinyl coated nylon, not plain canvas, as canvas(cotton?) may not stand up well to repeatedly being exposed to high levels of chlorine. I'm not 100% confident in the vinyl lasting as long as I would like, but what else is there? Polyurethane, according to what I could come up with, is not adequate at all with chlorine. Yes, the plastic pails/buckets would be best, but I haven't figured out how to fold them up yet, to fit them in a small space.

I agree, chlorine is not ridiculous, but the concept of putting together a kit like this may be seen as such by someone, and if so, I would be interested in why they thought so.

I stated ..........

Quote:
This kit augments my other water filtration kits, that are small and light enough to carry on lbe.
This implies that I do have mechanical filtration, but I guess I should have been more explicit, to avoid misunderstandings. I've got mechanical filtration kits utilizing Sawyer pathogen filters, both the squeeze, and the mini, with both GAC and bone char modules. As a matter of fact I have about twenty of them, as I enjoy building them and get carried away with doing so ........ maybe it's a form of self-therapy to release stress. I am constantly on the lookout for new ideas to improve these systems, and they are evolving, hopefully for the better. Yeah, I am aware that better is the enemy of good enough, but I value the thinking of others, and at times people come up with things that never occurred to me.

Please to consider the intended use of this kit. I have no intentions of carrying this on my self, rather it would be in my truck, a modified Toyota Tacoma TRD, or the off road trailer that will be towed by same. The kit is not very big, and I can carry it easily. This is simply expanding my options, layers of options to deal with certain areas of need.

I follow the same philosophy that JDY spelled out so well as to a hierarchy of bug out preparedness. House, vehicle, cart, backpack, lbe, then most nearly sol. I was thinking along those lines when I saw what JDY had come up with, which reinforced the validity of the approach. This kit would be carried to perhaps the cart level, then abandoned but for a few parts perhaps.

I know that there is the philosophy of bugging out to a predetermined bug out location, with various possible routes to achieve that, and this can be fine tuned to reduce perceived gear necessities to the minimum to facilitate speed, among other things. I am not so foolish as to put my life, and those of my family on the line as to those carefully conceived plans working out so well. Crap can and will happen, and so I attempt to take that into account by preparing for a two to three day trip taking maybe a month or two to accomplish. Sounds like overkill, well perhaps, but if I can prepare to that level, while I have the time and resources to do so, then I will. This kit is part of that approach.

This kit also enables me to create disinfection solutions if necessary, and given the levels of chlorine ppm necessary for that, I don't think this is too much gear....... maybe not enough. I will leave the necessity of disinfection solutions up to your imagination.

Those lyster bags are huge, bulky, and if I am preparing for mass water purification, then your idea of a stack of buckets and ceramic filters would be a better approach, in my opinion.
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Old 08-15-2019, 11:24 PM
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Lyster bags are not that big when empty and folded up. Ever bought a new toilet seat? Think of that size box they come in. Same as a new Lyster bag box.

Your chlorine kit is too much for a personal kit. If you are using it as a truck kit then a Lyster bag is good for a group. 4 to 6 people will go through 35 gallons in just a few days anyway. Why deal with water every day for a group? Group survival is likely going to be a busy time if you are the prepper anchor. Also, a bigger bag is more suited for the amount of chlorine you carry.

The same amount of chlorine you use in the 2.5g pail would work out to 2.23ppm in a Lyster bag. If the water is really clean then one dose needed. If you are dealing with muck then 4.5ppm with two doses and some time to "cook" and breathe would work out great.

If you already have personal gear locked down then a group kit is the obvious next step.
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Old 08-16-2019, 04:57 AM
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If you already have personal gear locked down then a group kit is the obvious next step.
I understand the point you are making. I will carefully consider it.
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Old 08-16-2019, 06:25 AM
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Well thought out. I have been working on my Onepage for water sources, so it is good timing for me to think about. What place does this fit in in your shtf plan? Are the people that will be bugging out with you sensitive to chlorine? many people are at higher concentrations - I think even 10 ppm (public municipalities are supposed to be no higher than 4 ppm). Do all uses of water have to be filtered to the same standard? If you are going to boil the water and make coffee or boil it and use it to rehydrate food, does it have to be as "pure" as the water you are drinking directly without further processing? and will the water you use to wash yourself need to be purified to some degree? and to what level? ...I am assuming this is for a bov or a bol? Is this a "last chance to live" option - i.e. bugging out of the bol? Even so, for water I would prefer to purchase something a little more substantial, even if it needs some electricity (solar panels and batteries) or a hand pump. I would mount it semipermanently in the bov or the bol. A mechanical floss pre filter, a charcoal filter, and then a final stage of filtering. After the filtering is done, you can add chlorine, but would need a much smaller amount of the toxic chemical, so the little you carry would go much farther. How about taking some hydrogen peroxide along? It also has medicinal uses. https://muskokacleanwater.com/hydrog...water-cleaner/ You can even make a makeshift filter out of cloth and 1 gallon jug for what that has a lot of particles in it (for when you have no other choice) For me the topic is important enough to set aside 4-6 cubic feet of space for it. (but I say this knowing that my bov is a van pulling a trailer, so I have space.). I have seen some rubbermaid totes that have wheels on one end of them and a telescoping handle, so it can be easily and quickly moved. In the tote you can have your filtration done in stages and even include a 12v water pump. For water used for drinking purposes (not boiled) would something like a Brita water filter work for the last phase? If the water is already pretty well cleaned up they will last a long time. I know this doesn't look "military rugged" but I have done a lot of camping and backpacking in my days, used various kinds of filtering system. There is nothing better in the world than to be able to drink clean water without any hint of chemicals in it, and without having to deal with the taste of plain boiled water. This is a little more involved than the OP's suggestion - not that his is wrong, but these are things I am working towards. Maybe I am just a bit lazy or spoiled?
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Old 08-16-2019, 07:06 AM
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Maybe I am just a bit lazy or spoiled?
Or something no doubt.

No paragraphs, stream of consciousness rambling mass of words, containing at least ten questions.

I refuse to address your post.
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Old 08-16-2019, 10:14 AM
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The raw water can be treated with aluminum sulfate, commonly called alum, which serves as a flocculant.

It is less reactive and commonly available - found at local hardware outlets, for example.

I suppose the kit the OP has outlined falls under the "If it is worth doing right, what not overdo it" which is to say - far too much gear for even a family group, very fiddally to use and requires training and close attention to detail.

A sawyer filter and chlorine dioxide tabs (1 tablet per 1 liter of water) is simple, requires no real training and is - most importantly, stupid simple to use.

I applaud your initiative, but wonder if the $$ for that expensive gear might have been spent better elsewhere, say on an expanded FAK, food or other items...

Just the same - Thanks! for sharing, it was interesting to read about,.
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Old 08-16-2019, 10:02 PM
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The raw water can be treated with aluminum sulfate, commonly called alum, which serves as a flocculant.

It is less reactive and commonly available - found at local hardware outlets, for example.

I suppose the kit the OP has outlined falls under the "If it is worth doing right, what not overdo it" which is to say - far too much gear for even a family group, very fiddally to use and requires training and close attention to detail.

A sawyer filter and chlorine dioxide tabs (1 tablet per 1 liter of water) is simple, requires no real training and is - most importantly, stupid simple to use.

I applaud your initiative, but wonder if the $$ for that expensive gear might have been spent better elsewhere, say on an expanded FAK, food or other items...

Just the same - Thanks! for sharing, it was interesting to read about,.
The choice of flocculant needs to be another discussion entirely, so I will not engage that point here.

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very fiddally to use and requires training and close attention to detail
Say what? Do you use firearms, and optics, ammo specific to certain needs, do you reload, do you understand ballistics? All of that can be fiddly, as you say, and requires training, and certainly close attention to detail.

A competent chef deals with complexity, attention to detail, and it all can be fiddly at times.

Simply because the needed knowledge and skill set necessary to use this kit is new to you, being something that you probably have not learned, does not mean that it is any more complex, necessitating training and attention to detail than a lot of other things humans deal with on a day to day basis.

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the $$ for that expensive gear might have been spent better elsewhere, say on an expanded FAK, food or other items...
I don't know why you think this kit is expensive gear, I don't have as much money in the two of them as I would spend on a good pistol, or rifle.

I acquired the majority of the calcium hypochlorite years ago, the first box costing me $2.00, and becoming evermore expensive as time went on. I became aware of their value years ago, and began to accumulate them for reasonable prices. Now they cost more than I am willing to spend on them, and after all, 700+ vials of the stuff should last me a while.

None of the other gear is expensive, by any stretch of the imagination.

Expanded FAK eh? Food? All that is covered, in depth, and I now find myself in the position of having some disposable income to play with things like these kits. I have been at this from when I was a kid, experiencing the Cuban missle crises, and watching my parents stockpiling food and other supplies. My dad was a military officer, and understood the possible ramifications of the situation. This compelled me to take all that stuff I read in the FM on survival seriously, and it has never stopped.

I suppose you meant well, but I don't need admonishments pertaining to how I should spend my money.

I reckon this whole thing boils down to, mechanical filtration to achieve safe water, as opposed to chemical means to achieve same.

I take the position that mechanical filtration is equal to, and in most cases, superior to chemical means. Mechanical filtration is a much safer avenue of approach also.

I've got mechanical filtration covered, many times over, as I explained in a preceding post to Zeke, and that is what I carry on my person,my first choice in these matters.

Given all that, why not move on to utilizing chemical means to create safe water, among other things? I am not intimidated by the complexity, the possible dangers inherent to that approach. I am able to learn, I heed the warnings, I understand the parameters, the advantages/disadvantages and ramifications of doing these things. So why not pursue this?

My first attraction to the value of calcium hypochlorite was the need for a disinfecting solution. After the commercially available things like Chlorox become unavailable, in the short or long term, the need will still exist. No, I am not going to argue said need here.

At my house I can have Chlorox, to address the need for a disinfecting solution, but away from my house I might find it difficult, and inefficient to lug around gallon jugs of Chlorox to meet the need. So vials of calcium hypochlorite are the answer, to meet the need in an efficient manner.

This is TLDR at this point, so that will have to suffice.




By the way, why do you need chlorine dioxide tablets if you have a Sawyer?
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Old 08-18-2019, 07:23 PM
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The choice of flocculant needs to be another discussion entirely, so I will not engage that point here.


(SNIP)

By the way, why do you need chlorine dioxide tablets if you have a Sawyer?
I live in Alaska, the water here does have issues with virus contamination. It is much worse in some of the village water supplies...

Filter + CD tabs for treatment -- that makes me happy. You get to do what you want.

As for the other, I value a *system* that is stupid simple to use - that is to say, my 10 Y/O autistic grandson can produce safe water as he knows to run it thru the filter, add a tab, one per container and to wait 30 min before drinking.

Total training time me walking thru the process once and having him do the process again x2. 10 days later we had a refresh and again after a month.

Now, nearly a year later, he can perform all the needed steps *error free* with no prompting on my part.

I spent 23+ years in the military, I really appreciate simple stupid procedures and gear. The easier to use, the less likely a mistake will be made.

Again, you have an interesting setup. It's just not the way I do things. Again, thanks for sharing.
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Old 08-18-2019, 07:55 PM
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I live in Alaska, the water here does have issues with virus contamination. It is much worse in some of the village water supplies...

Filter + CD tabs for treatment -- that makes me happy. You get to do what you want.

As for the other, I value a *system* that is stupid simple to use - that is to say, my 10 Y/O autistic grandson can produce safe water as he knows to run it thru the filter, add a tab, one per container and to wait 30 min before drinking.

Total training time me walking thru the process once and having him do the process again x2. 10 days later we had a refresh and again after a month.

Now, nearly a year later, he can perform all the needed steps *error free* with no prompting on my part.

I spent 23+ years in the military, I really appreciate simple stupid procedures and gear. The easier to use, the less likely a mistake will be made.

Again, you have an interesting setup. It's just not the way I do things. Again, thanks for sharing.
As to the complexity and necessity for training, you made your point well, and I agree that in your circumstances you make a wise decision in that regard.

I was also military, medical and infantry mos, and you are correct, they do strive to keep things simple. That said, there are complex systems in use by the military, out of necessity, and people do learn to use them without error. This is not an attempt to contradict your point, rather it is in addition to it.

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I live in Alaska, the water here does have issues with virus contamination. It is much worse in some of the village water supplies...
I am interested in this. I would suppose the viral contamination results from human waste. If it isn't too much trouble, could you explain in a bit more detail, such as the prevalence of the contamination, the demographic of the most heavily contaminated areas, has there been any official testing, how far from human habitation it extends ........ whatever you feel like adding would be appreciated.

It's ironic, now I am considering adding chlorine dioxide to the kit, as it addresses viral contamination better than chlorine .......... more complexity, because of you.
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Old 08-18-2019, 08:41 PM
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I am interested in this. I would suppose the viral contamination results from human waste. If it isn't too much trouble, could you explain in a bit more detail, such as the prevalence of the contamination, the demographic of the most heavily contaminated areas, has there been any official testing, how far from human habitation it extends ........ whatever you feel like adding would be appreciated.
Viral water threats are persistent in places where groundwater temps tend to stay the same.

A virus is an incomplete organism too small to have thermal regulation.

Obviously this is why the tropics have a frequent viral threat.

But the polar regions tend to have fairly constant ground water temps too. So the virus there has adapted to the constant cold. They still have the same vulnerability to daily water temp changes but they have adapted to be cold dormant until they meet a host.

Temperate and sub tropical regions are still highly resistant to viral water temps because 30 to 40 degree temp swings on a daily basis is too much for their unregulated forms to handle.
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Old 08-18-2019, 11:30 PM
enemy mind enemy mind is offline
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Originally Posted by IamZeke View Post
Viral water threats are persistent in places where groundwater temps tend to stay the same.

A virus is an incomplete organism too small to have thermal regulation.

Obviously this is why the tropics have a frequent viral threat.

But the polar regions tend to have fairly constant ground water temps too. So the virus there has adapted to the constant cold. They still have the same vulnerability to daily water temp changes but they have adapted to be cold dormant until they meet a host.

Temperate and sub tropical regions are still highly resistant to viral water temps because 30 to 40 degree temp swings on a daily basis is too much for their unregulated forms to handle.
Thanks Zeke.

This stimulated me to dig out something from my bookmarks. You most likely already know this, but others may find it enlightening.

Quote:
Abstract

Water, a frequent vehicle for the transmission of viruses, may permit their survival, but many environmental factors will have an adverse effect on the viral population. Risk evaluation requires identification of these factors and assessment of the inactivation rate of infectious viruses. A higher temperature means a faster reduction of the viral population, as do increased sunlight, higher antimicrobial concentration, or higher oxygen levels. Another documented impact is linked to the presence of indigenous microbial populations: virus survival is higher in sterile water. Environmental factors inactivate viruses through direct or indirect action on one part of the viral structure: genome, capsid, or envelope if present. Viral populations also have resistance mechanisms, generally involving physical shielding from adverse effects; such protective behaviors include aggregation, adhesion, or internalization inside living structures. Because of these phenomena, inactivation kinetics may deviate from traditional log-linear shapes. It is therefore important to account for all factors that may impact on survival, to carefully design experiments to ensure sufficient data, and to select the right modelling approach. Comparison between studies is difficult. It is suggested that laboratory studies include standard conditions of water, and analyze the impact of different factors as precisely as possible. Larger studies in natural environments, though more difficult, are also much needed.
https://www.karger.com/Article/FullText/484899

This is interesting.

Quote:
Another documented impact is linked to the presence of indigenous microbial populations: virus survival is higher in sterile water.
The entire paper is interesting, anyone who wants to understand and address viral threat should read this work.

I'm still interested in the particulars as to the situation DKR alluded to in Alaska.
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