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Old 04-11-2019, 09:52 PM
mtnairkin mtnairkin is offline
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I might add that when I was a teenager my grandfather became too old to spade his own garden. Small backyard garden that only supplemented his food supply. For a few years I was the one assigned to spade his garden each spring.

Another point is that if I were not bothered by other people (again it would depend on the nature of the shutdown), I'd have enough fuel and supplies that I could manage a long period of transition before needing to go completely manual. I would minimize the use of fuel as much as possible to stretch the fuel supply.

As in most scenarios I can imagine, the BIG if is what will be the actions of other people and how much protection might still exist. People growing enough food for more than themselves might even warrant special protection. I don't plan on it though. I am more wary about authoritarian control than I am about potential bandits.
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Old 04-11-2019, 10:07 PM
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Originally Posted by Don H View Post
It has happened in the past, during the Great Depression and will likely happen again.
I was talking with my Dad the other day about living during the depression. He told about how he and his brothers (born 1928 - 32) would each get an empty sack and get dropped off after dark by their father at a nearby farm. The kids were expected to come back with a full sack of whatever was growing in the fields, usually corn and tomatoes.


The situation during the depression was mild compared to what MIGHT happen now. Most farms were not near as big nor as dependent on outside sources of fuel and chemicals. Many, perhaps most farms were still utilizing horses and manure. Chemicals still were mostly not the kinds we are dependent on today.

I remember stories from the old timers. It was not so much a shortage of food as it was the lack of money to buy it. There was a lot of pilferage, both of crops and especially the chicken coop.
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Old 04-12-2019, 05:05 AM
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Throughout history, governments have taken food and redistributed it as they saw fit. In modern times, the Soviets and Eastern Bloc governments, China, Vietnam, Rwanda, South Africa, Sudan, India, Pakistan, *****ia, etc. In ancient times, Rome and Egypt.

Any time there is a serious food shortage/famine, those in power take what they need to stay in power, which means feeding themselves, their henchmen, their supporters, and the people in the cities that could overthrow them. These same governments killed or dispersed troublemakers/enemies into the countryside to work on farms to provide food. Farmers that got caught hiding food were killed or their land seized. Frequently, farmers didn't have enough left after the government took what it wanted, so non-family workers were killed, which was fine with the government (labor was cheap and expendable and the farmers were killing enemies of the state).

Farms/farmettes were registered and there were usually unreasonable quotas imposed. Miss a quota and land could be seized, or farmer/family killed.

If you think it can't happen here... some places "inventory" all the trees on property and require permits for all new plantings to ensure "diversity" to avoid a huge environmental impact if one species were to have a mass die-off (Dutch elm disease and emerald ash borer come to mind). Unpermitted trees subject owners to fines and sometimes even removal. So the powers that be know who has apples, peaches...

Makes me think container gardening and hydroponics/aquaponics/similar are good for more than mobility for pollination, avoiding hail, etc.
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Old 04-12-2019, 06:04 AM
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Have you ever seriously stopped to think about the ramifications of an economic collapse?
This is a SURVIVALIST site. Thinking about how to live without money is pretty much the starting point for all prepping. If you've never seriously thought about that then I don't know what a person would even be doing on this forum.

I don't know the answer though. Maybe if I had the kind of climate they do.

As it is I struggle to grow anything up here even with access to garden store. My greenhouse is under three inches of snow at the moment. Probably not something they have to worry about down there.
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Old 04-12-2019, 07:58 AM
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Originally Posted by Aerindel View Post
This is a SURVIVALIST site. Thinking about how to live without money is pretty much the starting point for all prepping. If you've never seriously thought about that then I don't know what a person would even be doing on this forum.
That is the copy / pasted opening paragraph from my article. It's published to my blog originally which is trafficked by more than just strictly survivalist readers. Perhaps you overlooked the quotation marks and the fact that the paragraph tails off....... Its's a preview of the article.
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Old 04-12-2019, 08:22 AM
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During the depression.... There was a tremendous drought going on "dust bowl"...
The soil from Oklahoma and thereabouts blew all the way to new York city and Washington dc.

Guarantee those peeps driving out to California "grapes of wrath" woulda stayed in their homes if that had been an option.

As to gardening in an economic collapse...
Really gonna depend on what happens due to climate change.

If it doesn't rain, or it floods, or tornadoes, hurricanes, fire... Things could be dicey.

As far as simply gardening without access to the store?
Easy.

Problem is...
I do wear out a lot of shovels....



Of course... After soil prep becomes difficult...
There's still the stealth garden....

The important thing to consider about planning to survive from the stealth garden.... Learning to eat that stuff....

Have you ever cooked canna tubers? I have.
Have you ever eaten evening primrose? Yup...

How about day lilies? Yup again.

Ok, Im not going to list my entire stealth garden, but I do add to it... By finding crops that self-sow... Like the Everglades tomatoes and spiny cucumbers,(cucumis anguria)...
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Old 04-12-2019, 10:30 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by st0n3 View Post
During the depression.... There was a tremendous drought going on "dust bowl"...
The soil from Oklahoma and thereabouts blew all the way to new York city and Washington dc.

Guarantee those peeps driving out to California "grapes of wrath" woulda stayed in their homes if that had been an option.

As to gardening in an economic collapse...
Really gonna depend on what happens due to climate change.

If it doesn't rain, or it floods, or tornadoes, hurricanes, fire... Things could be dicey.

As far as simply gardening without access to the store?
Easy.

Problem is...
I do wear out a lot of shovels....



Of course... After soil prep becomes difficult...
There's still the stealth garden....

The important thing to consider about planning to survive from the stealth garden.... Learning to eat that stuff....

Have you ever cooked canna tubers? I have.
Have you ever eaten evening primrose? Yup...

How about day lilies? Yup again.

Ok, Im not going to list my entire stealth garden, but I do add to it... By finding crops that self-sow... Like the Everglades tomatoes and spiny cucumbers,(cucumis anguria)...
Good points raised. i have doubts about just how hidden any stealth garden would if it is not hidden on your land. People will br foraging in the woods. If for nothing else to hunt and lay traps. Someone will find a hidden plot or even that forgotten fruit tree that no one was suppose to know about. If you have a large garden, it would not likely be enough for the government to officially bother with. But the local national guard or police on an individual basis might to come pick as they pleased. If they have a tank or APC it might be that they could present a most persuasive argument to support their actions. I would worry most about my neighbors deciding to take what I have. They already think I am a little weird and it is easy to raise a mob to go after someone that is 'different'. Instead of going to the range, I would likely do my shooting on site so that the neighbors can hear exactly what I have on hand. I have eight acres and so have the space. I could do some bump firing to make people believe I have machine gun. I have never done it, but it is easy to do with an AK and i have a lot of that caliber about.

A big factor here would be the powerplant and if it continues too supply electricity. Without it people would really go over the edge if they could not heat or cool their houses. Heating is more important than cooling. But electricity will not help much with crops other than the electric fencing.
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Old 04-12-2019, 11:18 AM
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i started to prep on this piece of ground 10 years ago in june/july,,,I have added garden area and organics to it non stop from the start ,,,in some areas I have raised the level of the soil by several inches with composted material [ horse manure ,grass clippings ,leaves],,,my belief is that once the soil is improved that much it will take several more years before it starts to deplete enough to need work, I started with good to excellent soil to start with,,look at the pics of my early gardens in my gardening tread

I work the ground with a gas powered tiller now [ around 40,000 sf] ,but I also work 40+ hours a week,,,in a grid down that's more time to work my gardens,,i got extra tools [several shovels ,hoes , rakes ect] to do it with stored and with the ground being broke and improved it gets easier every year

over a 2 years worth of seeds stored and rotated every season ,,,plus what I save and store,,working on my fruit production by planting trees and bushes,,some are just starting to produce, and I tried to save all the native fruit trees /bushes that were here,,,so I got a bunch of plums and several currant bushes that produce well ,and a raspberry patch that's over 100 feet long and around 20 feet wide,,,lol more berries than I can use ,,,I let a few select people pick the extras,,these same people are the ones welcome here to help grow ,and defend the gardens/produce

a flowing well so my water is easy to get to both now and in grid down ,,,,summer /winter it don't stop ,,,in the 10 years here I have not seen a change in flow
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Old 04-12-2019, 05:04 PM
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Originally Posted by barnetmill View Post
i have doubts about just how hidden any stealth garden would if it is not hidden on your land.

People will br foraging in the woods. If for nothing else to hunt and lay traps.
Someone will find a hidden plot or even that forgotten fruit tree that no one was suppose to know about.
My point about stealth gardening... it doesn't actually look like food....

Last year, my little everglades tomatoes grew up through a big pokeweed... take a brave person to be picking the red berries among the purple...

And...
cucumis anguria?



Most people aren't likely to suspect veggies among the weeds...
especially when it isn't anything they've ever eaten...
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Old 04-13-2019, 03:02 AM
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Quote:
Perhaps you overlooked the quotation marks and the fact that the paragraph tails off....... Its's a preview of the article.
Yep. I didn't notice that as I didn't click on the links since I refuse to visit anyones site or youtube channel when they come here to shill their enterprise. I usually try and take posts at face value rather than as a preview of something else.
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Old 04-13-2019, 07:41 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by st0n3 View Post
My point about stealth gardening... it doesn't actually look like food....

Last year, my little everglades tomatoes grew up through a big pokeweed... take a brave person to be picking the red berries among the purple...

And...
cucumis anguria?



Most people aren't likely to suspect veggies among the weeds...
especially when it isn't anything they've ever eaten...
That kind of a garden would be useful supplement, but could you get enough out of such stealth plants to actually feed yourself and others through the year?
How many lbs of produce will you get out of it?
Marijuana growers sometimes grow the crops like that on someone else's land as a way to avoid being caught the with plants on their land. It is important not to leave a readily visible trail to your stealth plantings.
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Old 04-13-2019, 11:11 AM
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Originally Posted by mtnairkin View Post
I might add that when I was a teenager my grandfather became too old to spade his own garden. Small backyard garden that only supplemented his food supply. For a few years I was the one assigned to spade his garden each spring.

Another point is that if I were not bothered by other people (again it would depend on the nature of the shutdown), I'd have enough fuel and supplies that I could manage a long period of transition before needing to go completely manual. I would minimize the use of fuel as much as possible to stretch the fuel supply.

As in most scenarios I can imagine, the BIG if is what will be the actions of other people and how much protection might still exist. People growing enough food for more than themselves might even warrant special protection. I don't plan on it though. I am more wary about authoritarian control than I am about potential bandits.
yupcaw x100.......
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Old 04-13-2019, 12:42 PM
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Originally Posted by Aerindel View Post
Yep. I didn't notice that as I didn't click on the links since I refuse to visit anyones site or youtube channel when they come here to shill their enterprise. I usually try and take posts at face value rather than as a preview of something else.
Sure, I get that. Just trying to answer your question and clear up the confusion.
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Old 04-13-2019, 05:21 PM
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Originally Posted by Velvet Elvis View Post
That really cuts to the heart of EP gardening in my opinion. They are not in a true EMP type grid down, but given their circumstances they are essentially living much that way. Must be horrible. It could last for years.

That's why I survival garden for the most part like I'm in a grid down existence.
In answer to your question in the thread title, yes I could.

I have the resources, consumables and land - and I have practiced enough to know I can do it. I also have long established food producing trees that are between 20 and about a hundred years old.

I also have a cattle herd (although I note this thread is about gardening).

But as is always the case where you are (or would be) gardening to feed yourself when others can not (or at least in Venezuela) when others are not getting enough to eat, security is the challenge. As I understand it, Venezuelans are not quite starving yet, but most struggle to buy enough food.

That brings me to the challenge in the case of Venezuela:

1) People there are hungry but not quite starving
2) The ROL is weak and unreliable, but not yet absent
3) The ROL is enforced by police/military who are not being paid - but are still turning up for work because it is better than being one of the ordinary folks (and they get fringe benefits from that)

As a result of the "in between" nature of their situation, theft of food is most likely rife and would make growing food any where but the most remote parts of the countryside a bit futile (as it would be stolen before you could benefit from it). Alternatively they might be able to make a deal with the local police for protection, but that would most likely cost them most of the food they grow.

Even if the person growing the garden had guns, and if they chose to defend their food with those guns, the police would probably turn up, take them (and the guns) away and put them in a crowded prison full of hungry people.

This highlights the real world problems of these in between conditions. Many here have an idea of what they would do to protect their property/food if the ROL is still in place and then have different plans as to what they would do if the ROL were gone.

But the real challenge is what to do if the ROL is weak - but still in place to some degree.
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Old 04-13-2019, 08:59 PM
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Solid post..........

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In answer to your question in the thread title, yes I could.

I have the resources, consumables and land - and I have practiced enough to know I can do it. I also have long established food producing trees that are between 20 and about a hundred years old.

I also have a cattle herd (although I note this thread is about gardening).

But as is always the case where you are (or would be) gardening to feed yourself when others can not (or at least in Venezuela) when others are not getting enough to eat. As I understand it, Venezuelans are not quite starving yet, but most struggle to buy enough food.

That brings me to the challenge in the case of Venezuela:

1) People there are hungry but not quite starving
2) The ROL is weak and unreliable, but not yet absent
3) The ROL is enforced by police/military who are not being paid - but are still turning up for work because it is better than being one of the ordinary folks (and they get fringe benefits from that)

As a result of the "in between" nature of their situation, theft of food is most likely rife and would make growing food any where but the most remote parts of the countryside a bit futile (as it would be stolen before you could benefit from it). Alternatively they might be able to make a deal with the local police for protection, but that would most likely cost them most of the food they grow.

Even if the person growing the garden had guns, and if they chose to defend their food with those guns, the police would probably turn up, take them away and put them in a crowded prison full of hungry people.

This highlights the real world problems of these in between conditions. Many here have an idea of what they would do to protect their property/food if the ROL is still in place and then have different plans as to what they would do if the ROL were gone.

But the real challenge is what to do if the ROL is weak - but still in place to some degree.
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Old 04-14-2019, 07:26 AM
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The problem as I see it, we will always have the rule. The catch is trying to define if it's the rule of just (as in fair & justice) laws or the rule of outlaws.
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Old 04-14-2019, 10:43 AM
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I have been watching various components of that Venezuela situation and they have generally a year round growing climate and decent soils and rains so those whom jumped in to situations where they are cooperatively growing or set up on family plots of land with extended family and have been practicing growing could well be maintaining reasonably and they are not going to be talking about it . Way before the politics got this far they were food insecure there , just as there are here. There are people abound whom would drown in half a glass of water . We are having massive problems with population whom make choices that put themselves at risk , I just happen to be one that has put my nose to the grindstone at an early age and made choices to be set for resiliency . I think venezuelans will have people no different than myself. The one prepper sort reporting in here, Greg, didn't talk about even trying to grow some peppers until he was forced to accept money from the outside and inevitably moved outside the country to try to support his family . I on the other hand living in a more secure country but with a far more adverse growing climate , have moved specifically to place myself in an area where there is water to grow , privacy , some space to farm on a small family scale and I have worked to improve soils, plant a diverse number of fruit and nut plants , veggies, and venture to work at raising goats, rabbits and poultry and waterfowl for meat, eggs, and milk . I have done it at least and work towards doing it more efficiently , long before I actually need to. And I would think some Venezuelans could read the writing on the wall and have done likewise, they are not all diving dumpsters . I would still be hard pressed to survive in my climate right now if I were in their situation, securely growing enough food and harvesting wood for heat , but my odds are improving all the time at providing the food my family would need if indeed I also had their labour to help . On my own, I am making headway slowly and there is certainly opportunity to step up the game substantially . But I would have to say I would be floundering if it were grid down, and insecure from being raided , and given the climate here over that there, I would be very hard pressed at present and unlikely to successfully support myself , let alone my family . Ten years more down the road that could be a very different story with my perenial crops kicking in and that is what I am working towards .

I also do not want to be identified as a farm, I have no doubt the government would preasure farms to produce in a socialistic manner so my small time permaculture efforts are what I count on keeping me under the radar .
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Old 04-14-2019, 02:24 PM
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I also do not want to be identified as a farm, I have no doubt the government would preasure farms to produce in a socialistic manner so my small time permaculture efforts are what I count on keeping me under the radar .
And to think, all those small family farms that applied for the grant money to build greenhouses. I'm sure the .gov would be more then happy to go thru the docs, to find out exactly where all these are.

I have had a few people tell me I need to apply so I can get another GH or two built. Would I like a couple more, sure. Do I want to be a "registered farm", hell no. I will build those GHs as my good fortune allows.
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Old 04-14-2019, 03:02 PM
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We could survive on our farm if the grid went down, but we would not be able to defend it against a hostile government. Nothing we can do about that. But, I think if it came to that I would burn it all to the ground and kill as many of them as I could before they kill us. Scary thoughts, but realistic.

Venezuela can't be that bad yet, there are no massive deaths due to starvation, crime, lack of medical care or the blackout. At least you don't hear about it. I do wonder what its really like there. People on here have this idea that if the grid went down millions of people would just die. This isn't what's happening in Venezuela. Humans are sort of like cockroaches. It takes a lot to decimate the population.
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Old 04-14-2019, 04:12 PM
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And to think, all those small family farms that applied for the grant money to build greenhouses. I'm sure the .gov would be more then happy to go thru the docs, to find out exactly where all these are.

I have had a few people tell me I need to apply so I can get another GH or two built. Would I like a couple more, sure. Do I want to be a "registered farm", hell no. I will build those GHs as my good fortune allows.
Yesterday I was talking to someone whom has "farm status" and pays lower property tax but thinks she is opting out of the new mandatory registration of private wells used for farm purposes, these will be taxed here in our part of Canada. I think she is delusional now she has projected herself as a farm benefiting from that status and having a farm stand, accepting government money to employ student helpers and using woofers . Her well is now open to scrutiny and taxation , not a big step further to taxing her property for not producing to capacity for the public or government benefit or being assigned under other management if food production became critical . Our country imports 10.5 billion dollars in fruit and vegetables a year now and is welcoming more refugees , setting up social nets for all those downtrodden . If something goes off the deep end like Venezuela, accepting government funds may be akin to them taking over management of her property .
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