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-   -   Shotgun sights (https://www.survivalistboards.com/showthread.php?t=926352)

Buck91 09-05-2019 01:56 PM

Shotgun sights
 
So I just picked up a new-to-me Mossy 500A with a 18.5" and 28" barrels. Overall looks very nice, with minimal round counts. Also came with a pic rail attached to the top of the receiver where a traditional scope mount would go. This is mostly going to be a budget HD and field gun- something I didn't spend a ton on that can do any job I ask of it. Historically I have had no issues with typical shotgun bead sights and I will most likely just remove the pic rail and rely on the beads... But should I??

Is it "worth it" to go with an optic on this type of shotgun? All chokes are fixed so its not like I would be using it for turkey, even with the 28 incher. I'm not sure there is an effective and durable optic at a price point I'd be willing to go on this.

Area Man 09-05-2019 02:23 PM

If you're going to go with anything other than the bead, a Hi-Viz setup or maybe some ghost rings. I wouldn't get too excited for HD use, since in most cases that will be more "pointing" than "aiming". If nothing else, replacing the front bead with a Hi-Viz takes advantage of low-light situations.

But, if you insist . . .

Hi-Viz, take your pick: https://www.hivizsights.com/product-...hotgun-sights/

Tri-Viz, ghost ring style: https://www.hivizsights.com/product/triviz/

Genuine Mossberg Ghost Ring kit: https://www.amazon.com/Mossberg-Ghos.../dp/B0002INJSA

that's just my quick Google Fu, I'm sure there's more out there.

roseman 09-05-2019 02:47 PM

I removed the bead on the HD barrel and installed a Hi Viz fiber optic.

Ricekila 09-05-2019 05:42 PM

Remember -- except for slug shooting --

You dont aim a shotgun --- you point -- LOL

Vodka Wizard 09-06-2019 06:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ricekila (Post 19757738)
Remember -- except for slug shooting --

You dont aim a shotgun --- you point -- LOL

I know this is a joke but for the uninformed I just want to point out that this is a joke.


For sights I personally like a red dot. Otherwise I just run a bead. I can slam soda cans at 80 yards with a bead and slugs, haven't found the need to shell out cash on a ghost ring that could buy more slugs.

charliemeyer007 09-06-2019 11:11 PM

I wouldn't pay extra for it, but since you got it - save it. It might be useful for mounting something like a sight, light or perhaps a small game 22 LR zip-gun.

I consider a scatter gun a zone weapon - train to point the unit at the zone. Shooting from the hip is handy in self defense - very hard to walk around all the time with the weapon shouldered.

I use a mid bead as a rear sight for slugs. You can tape on a folded piece of say cut beer can to make field expedient sight system. Make and learn to use it now while ammo is cheap and available plus legal to be out shooting.

randkl 09-07-2019 07:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vodka Wizard (Post 19759832)
I know this is a joke but for the uninformed I just want to point out that this is a joke.

No, it's not.

Vodka Wizard 09-07-2019 09:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by randkl (Post 19760832)
No, it's not.

I was giving him the benefit of the doubt because the idea that you don't have to aim a shotgun is irresponsible and fuddlore continuously propagated by old folks too stuck in their ways.

Why even pattern your loads otherwise? Why have even a bead sight? Shooting at something with the half-hearted attempt at placement because "it's a shotgun" is silly. Aim your firearms, regardless of type.

wldrbob 09-07-2019 10:01 AM

if your shotgun fits you right you will not need to look at the sights to hit a pie plate at 20 yards or so

RedTail 09-07-2019 10:10 AM

Aimpoint micros are great on SGs, but cost 3-4 times as much as the gun.

I like the XS big dot for a bead. It's tritium, so helps with low light situations.

https://www.amazon.com/XS-Sight-Syst...gateway&sr=8-5

https://i.ibb.co/mXhqmSt/clinton.jpg

sabotage39k 09-07-2019 12:42 PM

I am going to say not necessary unless you end up using it for bigger game like deer. I almost exclusively hunt with a 12g (mossberg 535) and while the iron sights are sufficient enough for short ranges within 50 yards, beyond that begins to get more challenging. With a bead only even more especially at different angles. Also, the probable need for effective target engagement at night for defense would be another consideration. While there are ways to illuminate or replace front bead with something relatively inexpensive that would be sufficient for night time shooting, a good red dot can add significant benefit. So to conclude, not necessary, but will enhance capability with the right choice in optics and or advanced sights.

randkl 09-09-2019 08:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vodka Wizard (Post 19761028)
I was giving him the benefit of the doubt because the idea that you don't have to aim a shotgun is irresponsible and fuddlore continuously propagated by old folks too stuck in their ways.

Why even pattern your loads otherwise? Why have even a bead sight? Shooting at something with the half-hearted attempt at placement because "it's a shotgun" is silly. Aim your firearms, regardless of type.

I was giving YOU the benefit of the doubt in assuming you were young and didn't quite understand the topic. I edited my post to you three or four times before I posted exactly enough to express my opinion without insulting you.

You seem to have a bit of a prob telling those two words apart. "Aim" and "point".

In response to your question, you "pattern" a barrel with a specific ammo to get an idea of the "PATTERN" that that combo will give. You are working towards finding an acceptable "PATTERN" at a specific range with a specific type of ammo. If the "PATTERN" is too open or too ragged, you "PATTERN" a diff ammo/barrel combo until your "PATTERN" is acceptable. Yes, close in home defense range, you will want a decently tight "PATTERN"....but home defense range is only one small aspect of a "SHOTGUN". A single slug will always be better at that range. If all you want is a single deciding hit, there is no point to using anything else. Buck shot is intended to "SPREAD"....that's why it's seperate pellets. You "PATTERN" your buck to make sure it spreads enough but not TOO MUCH to ruin your "PATTERN". Am I getting that point across? Ok, let's go the opposite direction now. A "SHOTGUN" is a firearm meant to shoot "SHOT". "SHOT" is a bunch of individual little pellets that allow you to hunt/shoot small, moving, hard to hit animals called "BIRDS". A "SHOTGUN" shoots a large amount of little pellets that makes an acceptable "PATTERN" in that it spreads enough to assure a decent hit probability while still maintaining an acceptable kill potential. That, again, is why you "PATTERN" your gun/ammo selection ahead of time.

Shotgun beads are intended for one purpose....they tell you where the muzzle is "POINTING". Nothing more. Without a back sight, you are POINTING it. "AIMING" requires two sighted in points of reference to target a specific point of aim. POINTING means you point the barrel at the target and rely on your PATTERN to make the kill. A bead is simply to catch your eye as fast as possible and to let you sight down the barrel. Try it. You'll be surprised. That's why so many folks like glow beads, light fiber beads, white beads, ivory beads etc. In a lot of cases, aftermarket beads/sights will actually be so large they obscure the target. Again, the front bead on a shotgun is simply to catch your eye and let you know where the muzzle is pointing. You sight down the barrel. That vent rib so many shotguns have these days? Same thing. You use it to point the muzzle by sighting down the barrel. Same goes for white center stripes (anyone remember those?). A lot of hunters simply wrap a half inch wide piece of reflective tape in a full circle around the muzzle. Same idea. A lot of tactical shotgun shooters also hold the gun sideways with the ejection port pointing up....you brace the butt under your arm, not shouldered. You sight down the barrel same as before.

Yes, I fully understand the joke part about "pointing a shotgun and it'll clear a room" and all that bull****. I agree, it is bull****. Rice, above, knows enough about shotguns to joke about it. Rice, above, also knows enough to know that shotguns are intended to throw a spreaded pattern to cover an area, not to target one small point of aim. He mentioned slugs. Remember, the OP asked about a 28" bird hunting barrel. In that case, you don't even point AT THE BIRD....you learn to point at where it WILL BE and put your pattern onto that area.

You "POINT", you do not "AIM" a shotgun. To AIM requires two sighted in points of ref and a single projectile that will hit that point of aim. You can NOT sight in a bead nor can you sight in a shotgun pattern.

Apologies on the typos. Hands are giving me fits this morning. Apologies on the delay on this one, too. Lots of farm work here this time of year and I'm working my butt off.

hatchet jack 09-09-2019 12:01 PM

I have a couple of the "Hi Viz" snap on sights on my shotguns and they do catch your eye. A shotgun is like any other gun. It works best when aimed with as much precision as you can muster when shooting at something. Most shotgun shots for me are snap shots at running or flying targets. Using the bead and having the barrel correctly aligned nets me the most hits. And some shots are just point and shoot. A missed shot at a clay bird is no big deal. A missed shot at a Turkey running across in front of you means no food.

CPT_MOOSE1988 09-09-2019 12:40 PM

ghost rings and a blade up front for me.

Vodka Wizard 09-11-2019 04:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by randkl (Post 19764156)
I was giving YOU the benefit of the doubt in assuming you were young and didn't quite understand the topic. I edited my post to you three or four times before I posted exactly enough to express my opinion without insulting you.

You seem to have a bit of a prob telling those two words apart. "Aim" and "point".

In response to your question, you "pattern" a barrel with a specific ammo to get an idea of the "PATTERN" that that combo will give. You are working towards finding an acceptable "PATTERN" at a specific range with a specific type of ammo. If the "PATTERN" is too open or too ragged, you "PATTERN" a diff ammo/barrel combo until your "PATTERN" is acceptable. Yes, close in home defense range, you will want a decently tight "PATTERN"....but home defense range is only one small aspect of a "SHOTGUN". A single slug will always be better at that range. If all you want is a single deciding hit, there is no point to using anything else. Buck shot is intended to "SPREAD"....that's why it's seperate pellets. You "PATTERN" your buck to make sure it spreads enough but not TOO MUCH to ruin your "PATTERN". Am I getting that point across? Ok, let's go the opposite direction now. A "SHOTGUN" is a firearm meant to shoot "SHOT". "SHOT" is a bunch of individual little pellets that allow you to hunt/shoot small, moving, hard to hit animals called "BIRDS". A "SHOTGUN" shoots a large amount of little pellets that makes an acceptable "PATTERN" in that it spreads enough to assure a decent hit probability while still maintaining an acceptable kill potential. That, again, is why you "PATTERN" your gun/ammo selection ahead of time.

Shotgun beads are intended for one purpose....they tell you where the muzzle is "POINTING". Nothing more. Without a back sight, you are POINTING it. "AIMING" requires two sighted in points of reference to target a specific point of aim. POINTING means you point the barrel at the target and rely on your PATTERN to make the kill. A bead is simply to catch your eye as fast as possible and to let you sight down the barrel. Try it. You'll be surprised. That's why so many folks like glow beads, light fiber beads, white beads, ivory beads etc. In a lot of cases, aftermarket beads/sights will actually be so large they obscure the target. Again, the front bead on a shotgun is simply to catch your eye and let you know where the muzzle is pointing. You sight down the barrel. That vent rib so many shotguns have these days? Same thing. You use it to point the muzzle by sighting down the barrel. Same goes for white center stripes (anyone remember those?). A lot of hunters simply wrap a half inch wide piece of reflective tape in a full circle around the muzzle. Same idea. A lot of tactical shotgun shooters also hold the gun sideways with the ejection port pointing up....you brace the butt under your arm, not shouldered. You sight down the barrel same as before.

Yes, I fully understand the joke part about "pointing a shotgun and it'll clear a room" and all that bull****. I agree, it is bull****. Rice, above, knows enough about shotguns to joke about it. Rice, above, also knows enough to know that shotguns are intended to throw a spreaded pattern to cover an area, not to target one small point of aim. He mentioned slugs. Remember, the OP asked about a 28" bird hunting barrel. In that case, you don't even point AT THE BIRD....you learn to point at where it WILL BE and put your pattern onto that area.

You "POINT", you do not "AIM" a shotgun. To AIM requires two sighted in points of ref and a single projectile that will hit that point of aim. You can NOT sight in a bead nor can you sight in a shotgun pattern.

Apologies on the typos. Hands are giving me fits this morning. Apologies on the delay on this one, too. Lots of farm work here this time of year and I'm working my butt off.

I think we may be arguing semantics. The physical function is identical.

The presence of a rear sight or not doesn't change the fact that you're aligning your dominant eye with the barrel and front bead, after all. In rifle shooting one establishes a front sight focus just the same. That is aiming. Front sight focus on target in line with your focus.

"Aim" and "point" as you describe them are practically indistinguishable to my reading. When I shoot a shotgun, my scout rifle, or an AR, my body mechanics and eye motions are the same. I have done CQB combat courses while in the military. I learned true point shooting. It does not include a true visual of the front sight. Mind you, I'm not pulling the actual differences in the terms out of my ass, they come from pros and firearms instructors.

I've got trap trophies. I'm a little less clueless than most. Im 30 with years of shooting in competition and the military. Pro instruction included. Everyone's got their own mileage.

Ricekila 09-14-2019 08:46 PM

https://img.photobucket.com/albums/v...s/a52ee926.gif

Disturbed70 09-16-2019 09:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vodka Wizard (Post 19761028)
I was giving him the benefit of the doubt because the idea that you don't have to aim a shotgun is irresponsible and fuddlore continuously propagated by old folks too stuck in their ways.

Why even pattern your loads otherwise? Why have even a bead sight? Shooting at something with the half-hearted attempt at placement because "it's a shotgun" is silly. Aim your firearms, regardless of type.

The "you don't have to aim a shotgun" always amazes me. Like you said, it has to come from someone who has never patterned a shotgun. Or who has never actually shot one. At SD ranges the spread is going to be about fist-sized. Hardly a "zone."

Area Man 09-17-2019 09:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Disturbed70 (Post 19778890)
The "you don't have to aim a shotgun" always amazes me. Like you said, it has to come from someone who has never patterned a shotgun. Or who has never actually shot one. At SD ranges the spread is going to be about fist-sized. Hardly a "zone."

It's not "you don't have to aim a shotgun", it's "you don't aim a shotgun".

Aiming required two points of sight. I aim my turkey gun because it has two points.

Most shotguns have only one point of sight, the bead at the end of the barrel. You point that.

Disturbed70 09-17-2019 09:57 AM

Aim:
to point or direct a weapon towards someone or something that you want to hit:
Aim (the arrow) a little above the target.
Aim at the yellow circle.
There are hundreds of nuclear missiles aimed at the main cities.
She aimed (= directed) a kick at my shins.
Let's aim for (= go in the direction of) Coventry first, and then we'll have a look at the map.

Sights, whether they are bead, ghost ring, red dot, etc, are designed to help you aim.

If you choose not to aim, because you think a shotgun is a "zone" weapon, you are wrong.

Area Man 09-17-2019 10:05 AM

When in Rome.


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