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-   -   Barrier Penetration: 5.45 vs. 5.56...and VEHICLES! (https://www.survivalistboards.com/showthread.php?t=134147)

MountainRecluse 10-26-2010 08:32 AM

Barrier Penetration: 5.45 vs. 5.56...and VEHICLES!
 
We all know that when it comes to "assault"-type rifles that the 7.62x39 reigns supreme in barrier penetration. But let's forget that.

I know there are other threads already comparing these two rounds as far as hitting flesh is concerned. But I want to focus primarily on how well these two rounds do against things such as windshields, car doors, stationary barriers, etc.....

My scope of experience has been primarily with just the 5.56 and 7.62x39. Never messed with the 5.45 before (other than with buddies who have used it). I always seem drawn into learning more about this round.

These smaller rounds can penetrate ALOT more than most folks give them credit for. Here is a video I found of some Turkish reporters getting swiss-cheesed either by some Georgians or Russians (Although I believe they were probably Russians) (But that's not important....let's not debate that here).

You obviously can't really tell what is being fired at them for sure, but I am assuming it might be the 5.45.....


Here we have some shooting through car windows with 5.56 (at 1:33-1:37 you can actually see the rounds going through the entire vehicle and busting out through the trunk!...me thinks this isn't regular 5.56). I did find this info about the video:

"Glass is devastating to regular 5.56 ammo, that is why we try to employ bonded bullets for use on vehicles. Glass is also devastating to pistol bullets."

Maybe some MK 318?



And there are plenty of other videos demonstrating various types of penetrations.....

I want to here from my bro's around here what they have found or experienced with this topic.

glong 10-26-2010 11:45 PM

The 7.62x39 is pretty much standard russian affair. unless they have devised something similar to remingtons 6.8. I deffinatly think its bigger than 5.56

Heckler&Coke 10-27-2010 05:05 AM


In this video 5.45 goes through 4 more layers than 5.56, then still goes flying off the edge of the last layer it penetrated. Not sure what types of ammo are being used though.

Here, xm193 goes through 12 layers;
http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot1_2.htm
Here it goes through 4 layers of drywall, through a water jug, and penetrated the backing;
http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot2_3.htm

Here Wolf commercial 5.45 (not 7n6 milsup with steel insert) goes through 12 layers of boards, then destroys the water jug, and then deflected off the wood backing.
http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot4.htm

Wish the Box-O'-Truth would have put various 5.45, and various 5.56 head to head on the exact same test, but oh well.

Neither 5.56 or 5.45 penetrated all that much in comparison to 7.62x39, or 51, I think we all know that.

I think 53gr 7n6 is better than 55gr m193, but comparable in function.
I think you need post 1987 7n6 or 7n10 to compare to m855/ss109 or the new m855a1.

Luckily, I have acquired a case of Russian 1988 7n6, which is said to have a hardened steel core instead of the mild steel core of all other pre-87 7n6, 5n7, or current commercial imports. The last tin can I shot was '82 7n6. When I get another case of pre-87 I'll put them head to head...but I don't have anything in 5.56 to compare to...:o:

Anyone care to donate an AR and some 193 and m855? :D:

MountainRecluse 10-27-2010 11:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Heckler&Coke (Post 2031421)
Wish the Box-O'-Truth would have put various 5.45, and various 5.56 head to head on the exact same test, but oh well.


Awesome. Thanx!

Yeah, box-o-truth does some great tests with great materials but they never get very "thorough".....

...and for us gun junkies.....it's ALWAYS gotta be a massive, intricate, and complicated series of scientific tests done under the utmost of scrutiny, lack of personal bias, and various control groups, with every possible round, grain, and gun......:xeye::D:

now I just need someone to gift me with some $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$.......:thumb:

MountainRecluse 10-27-2010 11:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by glong (Post 2031076)
The 7.62x39 is pretty much standard russian affair. unless they have devised something similar to remingtons 6.8. I deffinatly think its bigger than 5.56

Most pics and vids I seen from Georgia......I seen ALOT of AK74 action by Russian troops.....hence my assumptions....

http://i.telegraph.co.uk/telegraph/m...60_790845c.jpg

http://globalvoicesonline.org/wp-con...-roadblock.jpg

http://imgs.sfgate.com/c/pictures/20...0498941711.jpg

http://i.telegraph.co.uk/telegraph/m...e_1003548c.jpg

Heckler&Coke 10-27-2010 12:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MountainRecluse (Post 2032037)
Most pics and vids I seen from Georgia......I seen ALOT of AK74 action by Russian troops.....hence my assumptions....

Your assumptions would be correct, not sure what he meant, but 5.45 is the standard. It's said that Russian special forces will carry AK103s or 47s occasionally. Probably for much the same reason even our SF has carried Ak47s before...That fact get's twisted around a lot to demean the AK74, and promote the 47. I have both (3 47s, 1 74 to be exact), I can now honestly see the pros and cons of each, and the 74 is definitely a more proficient and well balanced rifle imho. It merely lacks the penetration of the 7.62 round. It is more accurate than the 47, has far less recoil, incorporates almost all the same parts, has twice the range, has superior terminal ballistics, and still weighs slightly less. Just sayin'...

The Dark One 10-28-2010 10:30 AM

That did not sound like an AK at all.


just sayin...

MountainRecluse 10-28-2010 10:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DakotaS (Post 2035187)
That did not sound like an AK at all.


just sayin...

Well that was my feeling....well at least not an AK47....

The snaps and pops seemed a bit on the "lighter" side....

I vote the 74 5.45

Heckler&Coke 10-28-2010 10:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DakotaS (Post 2035187)
That did not sound like an AK at all.


just sayin...

It was 74s, plainly shown in the video after they get out....What else could it have been? Both sides were using the same AK74s...

but it sounded so muffled...Probably because they were at a fair distance, in the open country, and the camera was in a car?

They sound similar, no?


MountainRecluse 10-28-2010 10:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Heckler&Coke (Post 2035229)
It was 74s, plainly shown in the video after they get out....

but it sounded so muffled...

Oh yeah....should have watched to the end....duh:upsidedown:

They were RUSSIANS with 74's.....shazam

Heckler&Coke 10-28-2010 11:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MountainRecluse (Post 2035237)
They were RUSSIANS with 74's.....shazam

That's what I thought, but then I looked up the Georgian uniforms... I can't honestly say that I know who it was, except that AP reported them to be Georgian and they're definitely from the Former Soviet Union! LOL!

But yea, the 74 is a distinct snap sound, the 47 is is more distinguishable as being deeper...If you watch the video I posted you can hear the different sounds... Definitly heard 47s and 74s, as well as heavier GPMGs.

tpinpaisley 10-28-2010 01:04 PM

If I never get another combat rifle I'll be happy with my '74.

I spent 3 yrs on the west side of the E/W German Border,
glad it fell from the inside.

MrMorden 10-28-2010 01:33 PM

None of this is a surprise...a civilian vehicle is mostly sheet metal, glass, and plastic. A 9mm fmj will go completely through such a vehicle with ease, unless it hits the engine or the frame. No regular rifle is going to have any trouble tearing one apart.

AlmostTactical 07-20-2017 12:15 PM

5.56 Barrier Penetration Testing through Gel
 
Here's a sweet video of some 5.56 being shot through simulated car doors, walls, and windshields. This company claims that their solid copper/brass ammo is "barrier blind". From the looks of it, they may have something here.

Here's the video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zzZhC38hFN4&spfreload=5

HappyinID 07-20-2017 12:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AlmostTactical (Post 15345673)
Here's a sweet video of some 5.56 being shot through simulated car doors, walls, and windshields. This company claims that their solid copper/brass ammo is "barrier blind". From the looks of it, they may have something here.

Here's the video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zzZhC38hFN4&spfreload=5

:rolleyes:

Two posts, both flogging the same Bubba ammo company.....

HappyinID 07-20-2017 12:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MrMorden (Post 2035634)
None of this is a surprise...a civilian vehicle is mostly sheet metal, glass, and plastic. A 9mm fmj will go completely through such a vehicle with ease, unless it hits the engine or the frame. No regular rifle is going to have any trouble tearing one apart.

True. Modern cars are pretty easy to chew up with just about any rifle round.

Good "barrier blind" ammo will just have less deflection and better performance in tissue after penetration. But I wouldn't want to be sitting in a car with anyone shooting at it with anything.

justin22885 07-20-2017 02:28 PM

penetration depends on whats being penetrated and at what distance, 5.45 doesnt have twice the range of 7.62x39 when comparing it to more modern ammo, compared to anemic, low velocity wolf, tula, or flat base ammunition, possibly, id say on average it gets 50% more range

as for barriers ive seen 5.45 go through as many hard barriers as 7.62x39, it has a better sectional density for penetration and the steel jacket ammunition aids in this, i have seen it compared with 5.56 and found 5.45 tends to penetrate most hard targets (like doors, trees, cars) better given the SD and steel jacket but if my goal is to penetrate level III body armor at close range i think the 5.56s velocity has the edge when it comes to penetrating that

there are just too broad a variety of barriers that are more easily penetrated by varying characteristics of each round to say one of them simply penetrates better than the other, it really depends on what youre trying to shoot through, but in almost all cases any barrier can be pentrated with any round with repeated hits except the level III steel plates

body armor, 5.56
things like car doors, trees, wood, 5.45
barriers such as concrete, 7.62x39

FirstSergeant 07-20-2017 02:39 PM

I was under the impression that for personal self defense, one wanted rounds that would NOT go through walls and kill an innocent person.

justin22885 07-20-2017 02:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by FirstSergeant (Post 15347289)
I was under the impression that for personal self defense, one wanted rounds that would NOT go through walls and kill an innocent person.

what about the one who's been threatening the safety of you or your family is still armed and active, but hiding behind a concrete wall?

FirstSergeant 07-20-2017 03:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by justin22885 (Post 15347297)
what about the one who's been threatening the safety of you or your family is still armed and active, but hiding behind a concrete wall?

The nearest concrete wall is about 200 miles from me.

http://assets.nydailynews.com/polopo...ny8f-3-web.jpg

Fort Tryon Park, NYC


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