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Very good discussion here. As a lady with short fingers, I am limited with what pistols I can handle. With that said, I can handle a 1911 just fine. And just today at the range a woman in her late 50's was doing the "try and buy" and ended up choosing a Kimber .45. The whole purpose of us having these weapons is protection. So woman can handle the powerful caliber and do choose it. So please stop knocking the ladies, but feel free to continue bashing the "effeminate males".
A young woman in my MAG likes the .45 but has small hands and fingers. This means she has trouble holding it, properly depressing the trigger, and handling the recoil.

I am thinking of getting a smaller frame revolver in .45 ACP and see if she handles it better.
 
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As far as I can tell, everyone should have a .357,9mm,.40,10mm,and a .45, in both revolver and auto and carry all of them, loaded with a variety of different ammo and, in extremis, shoot the bad guy with all of them, therefore covering all the basics...hole size, tissue disruption, shock, and blood loss....don't forget to get at least one of each into the pelvis JIC he tries to get up before all the other factors take ahold....
 
Discussion starter · #103 ·
In Canada, we are limited to 10rd magazines for pistols.

That is why I own .45....a Glock and several 1911s.
You have handguns in Canada! :eek:



The whole "45 doesn't shrink" saying is a great tagline but doesn't reflect the reality of any type of self defense shooting. For one, only hits count and you need ammo to make hits. As so many cop shootings show, your accuracy will tank when in a self defense situation. So if you hit 30% (at best) of what you're aiming at in a SD situation that give you 2-3 in hits in a 1911 and 5+for a similarly sized 9mm (like a CZ-75). Capacity, all other things being roughly equal, is always greater with a 9mm. We will all miss at least a few shots when needed at a critical time. The biggest thing is not being dry when you need another bang. It's why nobody carries a .357 magnum revolver any more (which actually has more kinetic energy than ANY .45, by a long shot).

Second point, the energy (what actually kills someone) is pretty much identical for most .45 and 9mm loads. The .45 is large and slow and the 9mm is smaller and faster. I have yet to hear anyone argue that a smaller .30-06 bullet will do a worse job than a .45 JHP. Again, the ENERGY is what kills things.

I'm not really trying to change anyone's minds but I think that it will hopefully open some people's eyes to the fact that there have been rapid changes in projectile technology courtesy of the CCW crowd. Just because the old timers had .45s for pistols and .30-30s for deer rifles doesn't mean that they were the best, just the best at that time.
 
That's a nonsensical argument, for several reasons.
Why because you buy into the "magic bullet" fantasy? Reality is practicing with what you carry, or it should be. But the ammo manufactures have propagated the notion of two tier ammo system for maximum profits and the gun community clings to the "safer and better bullets" like a kid clings to his security blanket.
 
Discussion starter · #105 ·
Why because you buy into the "magic bullet" fantasy? Reality is practicing with what you carry, or it should be. But the ammo manufactures have propagated the notion of two tier ammo system for maximum profits and the gun community clings to the "safer and better bullets" like a kid clings to his security blanket.
It's nonsensical for the following reasons:

1. Why would you choose to practice with a more expensive round when there is surely one with the same grain bullet and point of impact as your chosen HD round?

2. Why wouldn't the manufacturers choose to sell only HD rounds when the can get double, at a minimum, the price for FMJ loads? I seriously doubt the HD rounds cost double FMJ to produce.

3. So you're saying that the new HD rounds don't have MUCH better terminal performance than FMJ rounds of similar caliber and weight? Do you carry with FMJ rounds then?

Maybe if you actually explained anything, other than that there is some supposed conspiracy among ammo makers to turn a profit, then we could actually understand what the hell you are saying. As it is, most of what you put forth is demonstrably wrong.
 
You have handguns in Canada! :eek:



The whole "45 doesn't shrink" saying is a great tagline but doesn't reflect the reality of any type of self defense shooting. For one, only hits count and you need ammo to make hits. As so many cop shootings show, your accuracy will tank when in a self defense situation. So if you hit 30% (at best) of what you're aiming at in a SD situation that give you 2-3 in hits in a 1911 and 5+for a similarly sized 9mm (like a CZ-75). Capacity, all other things being roughly equal, is always greater with a 9mm. We will all miss at least a few shots when needed at a critical time. The biggest thing is not being dry when you need another bang. It's why nobody carries a .357 magnum revolver any more (which actually has more kinetic energy than ANY .45, by a long shot).

Second point, the energy (what actually kills someone) is pretty much identical for most .45 and 9mm loads. The .45 is large and slow and the 9mm is smaller and faster. I have yet to hear anyone argue that a smaller .30-06 bullet will do a worse job than a .45 JHP. Again, the ENERGY is what kills things.

I'm not really trying to change anyone's minds but I think that it will hopefully open some people's eyes to the fact that there have been rapid changes in projectile technology courtesy of the CCW crowd. Just because the old timers had .45s for pistols and .30-30s for deer rifles doesn't mean that they were the best, just the best at that time.
One important thing to remember about police shooting statistics: They often occur at longer ranges. Typical self defense shootings occur within 6 feet. You are right about energy. Fast and or large is best. That's one of the reasons I like .40 S&W. It's as fast as 9mm but 30% larger.
 
It's nonsensical for the following reasons:

1. Why would you choose to practice with a more expensive round when there is surely one with the same grain bullet and point of impact as your chosen HD round?Because I want the piece of mind in knowing that the cartridges I regularly practice with is what comes out the barrel when it counts

2. Why wouldn't the manufacturers choose to sell only HD rounds when the can get double, at a minimum, the price for FMJ loads? I seriously doubt the HD rounds cost double FMJ to produce. because the cheap promo ammo is what pays the bills by volume sales, specialty ammo is a relatively new marketing ploy

3. So you're saying that the new HD rounds don't have MUCH better terminal performance than FMJ rounds of similar caliber and weight? Do you carry with FMJ rounds then?yes I carry the best quality fmj I can buy in .380acp, the only real advantage HP ammo offers is a wider wound channel "if" it functions properly

Maybe if you actually explained anything, other than that there is some supposed conspiracy among ammo makers to turn a profit, then we could actually understand what the hell you are saying. As it is, most of what you put forth is demonstrably wrong.
FWIW I don't believe pistol ammo generates enough "energy" to kill and there's no documented proof the HP dumps "energy" either, in SD you shoot to stop the threat, if it's a CNS hit it's lights out, if it's vitals hit it's bleed out. No magic needed just enough penetration.

The reason I keep beating this drum is because I believe the ammo companies are screwing us with factory ammo. I can remember when you went to a LGS bought a box Remington Express or Winchester silver tips, target practiced and carried a match quality ammo at a reasonable price.
 
FWIW I don't believe pistol ammo generates enough "energy" to kill and there's no documented proof the HP dumps "energy" either, in SD you shoot to stop the threat, if it's a CNS it's lights out, if it's vitals hit it's bleed out. No magic needed just enough penetration.
Are those responses in blue yours? You carry a .380 with FMJ?
 
Probably for the same reason that many .380 owners do...

.380 JHPs are problematic for both expansion and penetration. Additionally, some pocket pistol designs don't reliably feed some JHPs.

A solution is to use the fastest & heaviest ball load (usually a truncated FMJ) that will cycle the little guns. Around a 100 grain bullet doing 950-1000 fps. Something that will have a reasonable chance of going deep enough after punching through clothing layers or skull bone. European loads tend to run a bit hotter than US manufacturers. S&B or Fiocchi come to mind.

I do the exact same thing with a little Ruger LCP. IMHO, with a .380, shot placement and ability to penetrate is more important than what little expansion you might get with very lightweight JHPs.
 
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Probably for the same reason that many .380 owners do...

.380 JHPs are problematic for both expansion and penetration. Additionally, some pocket pistol designs don't reliably feed some JHPs.

A solution is to use the fastest & heaviest ball load (usually a truncated FMJ) that will cycle the little guns. Around a 100 grain bullet doing 950-1000 fps. Something that will at least go deep and have a reasonable chance of going deep enough after punching through clothing layers or bone. European loads tend to run a bit hotter than US manufacturers. S&B or Fiochii come to mind.

I do the exact same thing with a little Ruger LCP. With a .380, shot placement and ability to penetrate is more important than what little expansion you might get with very lightweight bullets... if they expand at all.
I hear great things about the Hornady Critical Defense out of the LCP. I realize that shot placement is important but with a tiny low capacity weapon with a heavy trigger shot placement is an unrealistic expectation. I carry a P229 and I train a lot. I still have no expectations that I will score a CNS or heart hit.
 
So did I.

I agree that it has a heavy trigger. But, I have enough practice with that weapon to make it work within its niche. All I need it do to do is 1) not jam and 2) penetrate as deeply as possible. I'll handle the rest.
 
So did I.

I agree that it has a heavy trigger. But, I have enough practice with that weapon to make it work within its niche. All I need it do to do is 1) not jam and 2) penetrate as deeply as possible. I'll handle the rest.
You might do the rest. I tend to prefer to get every bit I can to make up for the variable that will no doubt effect the outcome in some unpredictable way. I also like to assume that no amount of training will allow me to score perfect hits so causing more damage can only benefit my cause.
 
I don't expect CNS hits either. But I try for them. In any event, I'll shoot an NSR until you fall down or go away. Because I was trained to do that. Most people don't react well to being hit with bullets. Any bullets.

The little center fire handgun calibers (.25, .32, & .380) simply don't deliver huge dividends from bullet expansion. Not like their service caliber brethren. Expansion out of .380 loads usually comes with a penalty of too little penetration, especially through heavy clothing, body fat/muscle, or bone. I favor feeding reliability and deepest possible bullet penetration when it comes to mouse guns. YMMV.
 
I don't expect CNS hits either. But I try for them. I'll shoot an NSR until you fall down or go away. Because I was trained to do that.

The little center fire handgun calibers (.25, .32, & .380) simply don't deliver huge dividends from bullet expansion. I choose feeding reliability and penetration when it comes to mouse guns. YMMV.
I carry .40S&W Gold Dots and my Sig is 14+1. I assume I will get no CNS hits and instead set out to cause as much damage to as much of the upper torso as possible. A CNS hit is just a welcome bonus if it happens.
 
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