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AR Pistols: The Future?

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#241 ·
OldBlackWater said:
You are correct,
However I would be cautious not to leave any bread crumbs the BATFE could use to connect any dots into something, whether true or not, might leave you in a precarious legal position....
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Yup, as I've already mentioned, would take extraordinary evidence. Like someone who is "sure" he knows the law (reference ksmedman ;)) documenting his illegal configs on the net, or a friend/witness who gets in bind with the feds and owes them a favor or something. Very remote likelihood assuming you're first owner of a lower.

This type of thing, and the whole "constructive possession" issue are seldom primary stings. Good tack-on counts after investigation concerning something else you'd come under scrutiny for and been popped.

Then again, in the latter regard, if you're caught out and about with an iffy collection of components, like say with a short barreled pistol and a stock or VFG which have no legitimate use you can make it fairly easy if LE has a reason to check things out and push comes to shove. Irking off a LEO is generally a pretty good reason, if anyone doesn't know that. :)

- OS
 
#242 ·
Similar question - if I buy a "complete lower" that has a stock attached (new from an online dealer), is it still marked as "other" because it's not a complete firearm? As long as the dealer writes "receiver" instead of "rifle receiver" in Box 29, could I take off the stock and build a pistol out of it with no legal issues?
 
#243 ·
Just Jeff said:
Similar question - if I buy a "complete lower" that has a stock attached (new from an online dealer), is it still marked as "other" because it's not a complete firearm? As long as the dealer writes "receiver" instead of "rifle receiver" in Box 29, could I take off the stock and build a pistol out of it with no legal issues?
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Complete lower with stock no diff from stripped lower, still "other firearm", and FFL should mark it as such. Reports of some who don't get that still occur, but again, what's on the 4473 doesn't determine legality.

- OS
 
#244 ·
I just finished another one....



List o' parts...

-Anderson lower with integrated trigger guard
-Most of an Anderson lower parts kit with stainless trigger/hammer
-Phase 5 one-piece extended bolt release
-Troy Industries ambi-magazine catch
-Odin extended magazine button
-Gen 1 anti-rotation pins
-BCM mod 3 grip
-Odin pistol buffer tube and clamp
-Sig arm brace 'not-a-stock'
-H2 buffer
-Extra power buffer spring

-MAS defense upper ( 7.5", M4 ramp, 223 wylde chamber, slim flash can )
-9" keymod handguard
-MAS defense BCG, Nickel Boron coated.
-Tripwire ambi 'catchless' charging handle
-Troy Industries Fixed HK sights.

Everything went together really well expect one thing. The rail on the keymod handguard seems to be slightly out of spec for width. The Troy front sight will not tighten up on enough. I've contacted MAS defense to see if they have a solution. I really like these Troy sights and don't really want to run anything else. It's a bummer because I really want to go shoot the little guy this weekend!
 
#245 ·
I never figured out what makes an AR pistol useful when its chambered 5.56... the usefulness of an AR platform that shoots pistol calibers pretty self explanatory. Judging from AR pisto's availability [KT PLR-16, BM XM, RR LAR-15, etc] the market exists, but why? Moderate recoil, loud report, a flash that no flash-hider can mask, and halving the potential of the slow burning powder on top of a short barrel travel.
 
#246 ·
Illuminum3415 said:
I never figured out what makes an AR pistol useful when its chambered 5.56... the usefulness of an AR platform that shoots pistol calibers pretty self explanatory. Judging from AR pisto's availability [KT PLR-16, BM XM, RR LAR-15, etc] the market exists, but why? Moderate recoil, loud report, a flash that no flash-hider can mask, and halving the potential of the slow burning powder on top of a short barrel travel.
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223/5.56 ballistics are still pretty dang decent out of a short barrel. Ideal, no. Muzzle energy out of a 7.5" barrel is still 700ft/lbs. The only common pistol caliber that can beat that is something like 10mm, 44mag, or larger. 223/5.56 is still a rifle caliber. With a modern flash can muzzle device flash and noise isn't bad for the shooter at all....downrange is another story! Recoil is manageable, especially if you can treat it more like a rifle?

I would much rather shoot 300blk out of a short barrel AR but 223/5.56 will always be much cheaper and easier to find.

Personally, I like the idea of having 30-40 rounds of large caliber handgun performance in a small SBR-like package that falls completely under pistol law legally. I don't see many downsides to that. Especially when you have a spare mag or three.
 
#248 ·
Just Jeff said:
Magpul won't make an AR pistol brace b/c they're concerned with what it may do for 2A rights.
http://www.guns.com/2014/09/17/magpul-not-going-to-develop-ar-pistol-brace/
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I think they are realizing that FLOODING the ATF with lots of requests for rulings might not be the best thing. They are basically afraid that the ATF might some day change there mind on the arm brace.

Like Magpul also mentioned, I hope the ATF finally realizes that this SBR thing is silly and pointless.

Till then, I'm going to keep excising the current rights we have right now with the ATF ruling on the Sig arm brace.
 
#249 ·
Metcalf said:
....
Like Magpul also mentioned, I hope the ATF finally realizes that this SBR thing is silly and pointless. ...
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For all I know, the overall consensus within the org may indeed feel that way.

But the ATF does not enact laws. They are charged with enforcing them, and making niche determinations regarding configuration to do so.

- OS
 
#252 ·
Oh Shoot said:
I actually don't think they have. It's just that it is forced to act as a judicial body without being one, just like any number of other federal bureaus.

The only way to fix that is to remove the laws which they must interpret.

- OS
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You need to go educate yourself on the 3 branches of government.....:rolleyes:
 
#254 · (Edited)
This was a bad idea from the get go. Too awkward, too heavy, no balance. IT IS NEVER gonna be worth a crap as a pistol, just like those FUBAR AK pistols. The AR was not designed to work with a barrel shorter than 20 inches, according to the guy that designed them. The AK was designed for 16 inch barrel. They're GAS operated and the short barrels mess with the pressure. Don't be surprised when sh** starts breaking! The parts weren't designed to take that much stress. The AK uses a GAS piston, and you can get a regulator for them, and yes, there is one out there for the AR also. JP Enterprises IIRC.

Quit trying to put a pig in a dress and call it a date.

And you bitch cause your AR or AK "pistol" keeps jamming up, FTF, FTE, broken this, broken that. IT'S YOUR OWN FAULT!!!
 
#255 ·
Oh Shoot said:
I actually don't think they have. It's just that it is forced to act as a judicial body without being one, just like any number of other federal bureaus.

The only way to fix that is to remove the laws which they must interpret.

- OS
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Nomad said:
You need to go educate yourself on the 3 branches of government.....:rolleyes:
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You are actually both right.

Congress has given the Departments of .GOV the authority to enforce their laws by writing regulations and giving them authority to act upon Regulation as (DeFacto) Law thereby giving the Agencies to Write Law through Regulation and Enforce Law by Force.

I don't agree with it and believe it's unconstitutional but it is accepted.

.
 
#256 ·
doug2533 said:
This was a stupid idea from the get go. Too awkward, too heavy, no balance. IT IS NEVER gonna be worth a crap as a pistol, just like those FUBAR AK pistols. The AR was not designed to work with a barrel shorter than 20 inches, according to the guy that designed them. The AK was designed for 16 inch barrel. They're GAS operated and the short barrels mess with the pressure. Don't be surprised when sh** starts breaking! The parts weren't designed to take that much stress. The AK uses a GAS piston, and you can get a regulator for them, and yes, there is one out there for the AR also.

Quit trying to put a pig in a dress and call it a date.

And you people bitch cause your AR or AK "pistol" keeps jamming up, FTF, FTE, broken this, broken that. IT'S YOUR OWN FAULT!!!
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You realize we are basically talking about SBR's not true 'pistols' right?

I would say that probably 95% of the AR's built have a barrel shorter than 20"! I've never owned one with a 20" barrel....16, 14.5, down to 7.5" in 223/5.56. Isn't there a few million M4's the .gov is using with a barrel that is less than 20"

I've never had any out of the normal issues with any of my ARs and none of them have a 20" barrel.
 
#258 ·
OldBlackWater said:
You are actually both right.

Congress has given the Departments of .GOV the authority to enforce their laws by writing regulations and giving them authority to act upon Regulation as (DeFacto) Law thereby giving the Agencies to Write Law through Regulation and Enforce Law by Force.

I don't agree with it and believe it's unconstitutional but it is accepted.

.
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Yep. Federal law is made up of the USC, the laws using the verbiage as enacted, and the CFR, which are the more plain language explanation/interpretation of them. Any circumstances which come up not answered by either, the agency in charge of the expertise makes the call.

This is subject only to court interdiction by filing suit. The 1992 Thompson Decision was to my knowledge the only one involving a BATF interpretation that went all the way.

Nomad, you may rant about separation of powers all you like, but it's the way it's done. And of course the same with every federal agency that is charged with doing so, whether BATF, FAA, FDC, HHS, OSHA, EPA, ad nauseam. And of course these rulings are not necessarily made in an intelligent vacuum as court rulings are supposed to be -- big ones are often pressured by political agenda from the top.

- OS
 
#259 ·
Oh Shoot said:
Yep. Federal law is made up of the USC, the laws using the verbiage as enacted, and the CFR, which are the more plain language explanation/interpretation of them. Any circumstances which come up not answered by either, the agency in charge of the expertise makes the call.

This is subject only to court interdiction by filing suit. The 1992 Thompson Decision was to my knowledge the only one involving a BATF interpretation that went all the way.

Nomad, you may rant about separation of powers all you like, but it's the way it's done. And of course the same with every federal agency that is charged with doing so, whether BATF, FAA, FDC, HHS, OSHA, EPA, ad nauseam.

- OS
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Sadly so,
And this is how it came to pass that Agencies such as the EPA can Regulate you right out of business even though technically what someone may be doing isn't against any laws.

Welcome to Amerika!

.
 
#260 ·
ar pistols

Metcalf said:
You realize we are basically talking about SBR's not true 'pistols' right?

I would say that probably 95% of the AR's built have a barrel shorter than 20"! I've never owned one with a 20" barrel....16, 14.5, down to 7.5" in 223/5.56. Isn't there a few million M4's the .gov is using with a barrel that is less than 20"

I've never had any out of the normal issues with any of my ARs and none of them have a 20" barrel.
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Got a few friends that have them, and nothing BUT problems. Design of AR was for 20 Inch barrel. AK was designed for 16.

Military AR's until 2000 were 20" barrel for the most part, except for Spec OPs.
AND almost every branch is now bitching about those 16" short barreled ar's too. Cuts the effective range in half. That's part of the reason they tried to develop the 6.8. Stupid way to fix the problem. OXYMORON - Military Intelligence. If you need more range, go back to the longer barrel, or get a bigger gun.

Ya pays yer money and ya takes yer chances.
 
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