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"Wealthy" as political criminals? - rant

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Sacajawea

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Discussion starter · #1 ·
So... it appears that anyone considered "wealthy"... is now an enemy of the state. It's only fair - that the business income you've got (since you didn't build the business) - or the smart investments you've made - are taxable at confiscatory rates. (no, no - hush! - don't mention the fact that the gov is spending 10x the amount of money it gets in revenue... and wants to spend 10x more than that! - impertinant child!!)

OH... and in case you were wondering: if your household makes more than $250K a year -- CONGRATULATIONS! The Government considers you wealthy. That hasn't been true for what? 30 years?? 40?

And considering the level of government spending... compared to the pittance they're saying is a "wealthy" income... uh... can anyone say "disparity"? How about "cognitive dissonance"? How about - they're frickin dreaming or on crack?? But it's OK and politically expedient to drive the country right to default... sigh...

WHO'S NEXT? Christians?
After all, we no longer have a national "Christmas Tree"... it's a "Holiday Tree".

When does the next edition of Political Correct Definitions for the Oxford Dictionary come out??

/sarcasm
 
#3 ·
Sacajawea said:
WHO'S NEXT? Christians?
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Yep,exactly,we're already seeing the beginnings of a shift in mindset that will ultimately amount to full-blown persecution. We're closing in on the point where just teaching your own kids Christian views on God,creation,homosexuality,personal responsibility,sexual morality,etc. will be considered some kind of "hate crime".
They've already muzzled teachers and military chaplains, and are working on the airwaves.
We've had numerous celebrity-types stating, with virtually no repurcussion or rebuttal,that they fear Christians more than they fear Muslim extremists. The lunacy of these statements boggle the mind, but they're very telling, and ominous.
With the exposure kids start getting at age 6, at school and with their peers from nearly sun-up till late afternoon, and then the entertainment industry taking over from then until bedtime, they're effectively being brainwashed into being good little,atheistic global citizens, with all the other leftist views that entails.
When the coming global order finally emerges, and total compliance is demanded, eventually under pain of death, it will only be the Christians that have any reason to resist.
So yeah, I don't know if they're exactly "next", but their turn is coming, in a big way.
 
#6 ·
Yup, I for one agree with all of it. Fundamentalism of any kind is BAD. I was taught at an early age by my past spiritual teachers that you are doing something wrong if others know your religion..I.e openly praying and saying good (enter religion here) are supposed to do that. That religion is a private matter that is supposed to be conducted within, rather than overtly.

Now the wealthy; for all thier tax breaks i've seen nothing but a financial crash due to risky investments, jobs shipped overseas and the little guy suffering. Any working joe who thinks that more money to thier boss is going to help them is suffering from the same stupidity that has left them mining coal or stamping parts for the past 10 years instead of advancing into a better career. The dumb man accepts, the thinking man challenges and questions.
 
Discussion starter · #7 ·
that has left them mining coal or stamping parts for the past 10 years instead of advancing into a better career.
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And these aren't honest, hard-working jobs? That require knowledge and skills? Knowledge and skills, if I may point out... that BUILT this country.

Honestly, I don't see being chained to a computer screen in some cubicle (if you're lucky to have that) as being a step up the food chain... or more worthy of respect and additional salary or more freedom.

And yo - my employees get taken care of FIRST and very well, thank you - before I see anything from my business. This attitude about business - that the owners and shareholders are nothing but greedy thieves -- is the KOOL-AID you're supposed to believe about all businesses. Yes there are people like that in business -- just like in the cubicles and coal mines and tool & die shops, too. But you are creating a stereotype of ALL businesses, ALL business owners, that doesn't apply to all.

Do you include Apple and Steve Jobs in that?
How about Ben & Jerry?

Ain't buying what you're selling; so sorry.
 
#8 ·
Are you kidding? Who do you think has the ear of the government when it comes to real legislation and not just talking points? The super-wealthy. It's true that the rich have a higher marginal rate (if their income is earned), but they also have a) had the fastest falling marginal rate over the last 50 years and b) have more ways to reduce that marginal rate through deductions than any other group. Couple that with the fact that politics, or at least the type where you actually get the attention of a lawmaker, is strictly pay-to-play in this country, I think its safe to say that the very rich are anything but a "political criminal" in this country.

I get so tired of hearing the endless Copenhagen syndrome. Oh, the poor rich people, they're being so persecuted. Why, they might have to pay for the upkeep of the nation that provides the avenue for them to amass such great wealth. Sure if the rich didn't pay taxes, we'd have no military, and our enemies would destroy their factories. And then they'd make no goods, sell no services, make no money. If they didn't pay taxes we'd have no roads, no canals, no airports. They'd move no goods, sell no services, make no money. If we didn't have an education system they'd have nobody to work for them smart enough to do anything but pull a lever, they'd move less goods, sell less services, make less money. These taxes aren't some backbreaking blood-from-a-stone proposition. Despite the fact they they can typically dodge taxes so well that they pay a lower rate than I do, an average working-class stiff, its not as if their taxes aren't providing a system that makes the economy work. So spare me the bleeding heart. If they want to play, they gotta pay.

I'm not advocating they necessarily pay higher taxes as a marginal rate. Hell, I think the GOP plan of removing loopholes is fine, so long as its not just deductions that help middle class and upper-middle class people (it probably is.....)

But to call them political criminals? That's so far outside reality its almost laughable.
 
#9 ·
merlinfire said:
I get so tired of hearing the endless Copenhagen syndrome. Oh, the poor rich people, they're being so persecuted. Why, they might have to pay for the upkeep of the nation that provides the avenue for them to amass such great wealth.
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Ah little man syndrome.

The government did not pave the way for what I have built. My hard work and sound decisions have. But now, because people think that I am not paying my fair share, and because some people believe that I should be responsible for providing health insurance, I may just shut my doors before I am worth nothing. I will probably be better off selling off everything and living off that for the rest of my life than if I keep my doors open after all this crap goes through. Hell we are already paying nearly one hundred percent of the tax burden.

While I want to take care of my employees, and have done very well by them over the last fifteen years since we opened our doors (not one single lay off and great wages) I have to take care of myself and my family first. Because of these increased taxes, the healthcare mandate, and all the other crap that is coming down the pipeline. Myself and my family will be better off selling the shop, sitting at the house, and living off the sale than if I kept my doors open.

How can that be you ask? Well, every one of my employees offers a skilled trade. So I can not cut wages to pay for this crap without loosing product quality. If product quality goes down, product sales goes down. I can not increase the cost of my product without suffering a loss in sales. I can not reduce the number of employees without loosing product quantity because they will not work harder for the same pay. I can not decrease the cost of materials, or reduce the cost of the insane regulation. Yet I am going to be forced to pay more to produce these products because of all this bull. On top of that the gov wants to take more of my hard earned money to pay for things they should not be paying for in the first place.

Sure I could keep my doors open and fight it, slowly over the next decade loose more and more money until I am eventually worth nothing. But, meh,,,, I think I'm going to get out while I have a pot to **** in.

I told my people all this last year. Some of them chose to shoot themselves in the foot.

So, I guess its time to retire and let the company go to a new buyer who will cut wages or cut jobs.

Me? Im going to sit on my land, prep, build a few bikes and ride with my club.

Have fun in the guberment cheese line.
 
Discussion starter · #10 ·
Domovoi - I'm still fighting to keep my business productive. It's the company my Dad built, after years of tinkering in a garage. The government can KMA, we're tightening our belts... prepping the business against the fiscal insanity... looking at alternative power sources and even post-SHTF changes to what we make. My Dad would be madder than hell - and wouldn't hesitate to fight just as dirty as the government is. You do what you have to, to survive.

I learned a lot in that garage.

That said, I completely understand your position. I've seriously considered it myself. I know that I will probably consider it again and again and again. But it doesn't make sense - yet - for us. Businesses like mine, are what built this country... and while it feels like I'm on the "front lines" with new bullets flying past me every day -- because if you make over $250K, by some madman's stretch of the imagination we are "wealthy" and "evil bloodsuckers" -- and all the rest of the crazy crap --

well, so be it. Right now, my attitude about my business is:

Come and take it.
 
#11 ·
I am not completely to the point of shutting down. But every day I am closer to the decision. Ive had several prospective buyers and they have all made great offers.

Right now I am securing my assets and looking at the alternatives.

But maybe after its all said and done, the twenty or so in my shop that voted for that idiot will realize what happens when they vote for an antibusiness POTUS. One thing is for sure. Be it if whoever buys this place cuts employees, or cuts pay, They will all miss me, cause I promise you that if I do sell, they won't be making twenty something an hour anymore.
 
#12 ·
Domovoi said:
The government did not pave the way for what I have built. My hard work and sound decisions have
Click to expand...
Your sound decisions to build roads, provide police and fire protection, military equipment and training, and ports of call? Do tell.

Nobody is saying you haven't built a successful business.

But for someone who has run a successful business, you surely know that to run a business you need three things. Entrepreneurship, labor, and capital. Let's assume you provided the first and last. If you grow beyond a 1-man show, you're going to need labor. If labor can't get to you, you cannot get labor. And you have no business. And that's just what you need to START a business. As someone who has run a successful business, you know you also need revenue. Revenue requires sales, sales require a market. In order to get goods and services to a market, you need infrastructure. If there is none, goods and services don't move, and you cannot participate in the market. You have no revenue. Business fails.

Since your business is, by your own admission, successful, one can only deduce you have utilized this infrastructure in order to run the business and grow. Infrastructure paid for by taxes.
 
#13 ·
Business thrived long before roads were built paid for by taxes.

I have zero problems paying taxes for military. My national defense is the only thing that I want the fed to take care of. LE? I have no need for them, and do not recognize their authority over me. The policing of my affairs and my business is not handled by LE.

That said, government did not help me one bit to build my business. had they not built roads, roads would have been built by the private sector at a save, as major transportation used to be until government got involved.
 
#14 ·
Domovoi said:
Business thrived long before roads were built paid for by taxes.

I have zero problems paying taxes for military. My national defense is the only thing that I want the fed to take care of. LE? I have no need for them, and do not recognize their authority over me. The policing of my affairs and my business is not handled by LE.

That said, government did not help me one bit to build my business. had they not built roads, roads would have been built by the private sector at a save, as major transportation used to be until government got involved.
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I am not arguing with you about the relative merits of government-built projects vs private-built projects. The simple fact remains that there is infrastructure that IS being built and/or maintained, that contributes to the market in which you are able to find success through your hard work. All of your workers benefit from these roads and defense as well, but not as much as the business owner does. You are the one who has the most to lose if the roads were to be neglected to the point they became impassable, the most to lose if for instance your factory was destroyed by enemy activity, the most to lose if the transportation chain fell apart due to lack of infrastructure. The only point I'm making and the one that seemingly keeps being missed is that the business owner that benefits most from such infrastructure, and relies upon it most, so it only makes sense that the larger weight of tax should fall there as well. As to other things not related to defense and infrastructure (as well as government protection of patents, and other business-related functions), well, that's not necessarily your problem. I can see the argument made that the onus of tax for say, the welfare of the poor, is no more the wealthy man's problem than the middle class, so it doesn't seem fair on that count.
 
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Discussion starter · #15 ·
Ya know, Merlin... we ALREADY pay more taxes than most people. The estimates for next year (with all the sundry surtaxes, etc) come out to over 40%. THAT is the problem - and the definition of "fairness" that is objected to. All that stuff you listed, is SUPPOSED to paid for, from taxes already paid in. Not future tax dollars, and a half-assed promise to spend it on roads, law enforcement, etc.

I haven't seen tax money from the last 4 years building/rebuilding any infrastructure -- or pipelines. Otherwise my company would've had a better year.
 
#16 ·
merlinfire said:
I am not arguing with you about the relative merits of government-built projects vs private-built projects. The simple fact remains that there is infrastructure that IS being built and/or maintained, that contributes to the market in which you are able to find success through your hard work.
Click to expand...
You can not say that the gov helped me by building roads when it would have been done cheaper and more efficiently had it been handled by the private sector.

All of your workers benefit from these roads and defense as well, but not as much as the business owner does. You are the one who has the most to lose if the roads were to be neglected to the point they became impassable, the most to lose if for instance your factory was destroyed by enemy activity, the most to lose if the transportation chain fell apart due to lack of infrastructure.
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As I have already demonstrated I am actually going to be better off getting out of the business world. So no, the workers benefit most from government, they are after all the ones receiving the most from my tax dollars. Had I taken the wealth I built to start my business and invested it in foreign markets I would likely be even better off than I am now.

The only point I'm making and the one that seemingly keeps being missed is that the business owner that benefits most from such infrastructure, and relies upon it most, so it only makes sense that the larger weight of tax should fall there as well. As to other things not related to defense and infrastructure (as well as government protection of patents, and other business-related functions), well, that's not necessarily your problem. I can see the argument made that the onus of tax for say, the welfare of the poor, is no more the wealthy man's problem than the middle class, so it doesn't seem fair on that count.
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As I just demonstrated, they benefit the least. In fact, because of government today, most all business owners would be better off closing their doors, investing their money in foreign markets, and letting that money sit there until the gov realizes that they can't **** where they eat. No need for roads, infrastructure, etc etc.
 
#19 ·
merlinfire said:
The only point I'm making and the one that seemingly keeps being missed is that the business owner that benefits most from such infrastructure, and relies upon it most, so it only makes sense that the larger weight of tax should fall there as well.
Click to expand...
Employees use the very same roads to get to work every day that businesses use to transport raw materials / equipment / finished product / etc. Without that infrastructure employees wouldn't be able to earn the wages from that business. How can you possibly quantify who "benefits most" from such infrastructure?
 
#20 ·
Domovoi said:
As I have already demonstrated I am actually going to be better off getting out of the business world. So no, the workers benefit most from government, they are after all the ones receiving the most from my tax dollars. Had I taken the wealth I built to start my business and invested it in foreign markets I would likely be even better off than I am now.

If you knew about taxes, and I must assume that you do since you claim to be a successful businessman, you know that taxes are based on profits, that is, revenue minus expenses. If your business is beginning to fail, its not because of taxes, and reduced taxes will not save it. If you want to retire because you're not making enough money to be worth your time, and you'd rather retire and have your free time, have at it. You're not hurting anyone. Your ex-workers will get other jobs, the market void left by that business will be filled by another. That's how the market works. They will get along just fine without you. As to the workers benefiting more from your tax dollars, they benefit by being able to drive around. You also have that benefit. But your benefit is that you are able to move large amounts of goods and services. If you couldn't do that, you couldn't make money. I'm not sure what's so hard to understand about that. You do understand how businesses work, right?



As I just demonstrated, they benefit the least. In fact, because of government today, most all business owners would be better off closing their doors, investing their money in foreign markets, and letting that money sit there until the gov realizes that they can't **** where they eat. No need for roads, infrastructure, etc etc.

If you will make more money investing your money in foreign markets than by running a business, you're not running a very successful business. You'll still pay taxes. You'll have as much if not more risk. And you'll not have much control over how that money is used or the outcome of the company.
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See above in bold for my comments.
 
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