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Absolutely, but it takes two to tango. We cut taxes while increasing spending. Who fought for those tax cuts?

And who is fighting now tooth and nail to keep all of those goodies they voted for themselves? You guessed it, AARP. Almost every Boomer is now old enough to join AARP.

AARP to Congress: Cut Waste, Not Medicare and Social Security - YouTube
Show me ONE cite where the FICA tax was cut. Just one. I'll show you where in 1983 it was raised substantially AND benefits CUT .... DIRECTLY AFFECTING your hated boomers. Again, I love how you completely IGNORE that FACT.

I've voted in EVERY election since 1972. Not once have I ever voted yes or no on "tax cuts" in general let alone tax cuts for SS.

You need to COMPREHEND just how the SS income benefit was sold to the people. It was ALWAYS portrayed as an insurance policy ... just like millions of deferred annuities or defined benefit pension plans. Your constant harping on folks for "not paying their share" is completely fallacious and totally off base. That's NOT how "insurance" works. When an insurance company quotes out a guaranteed annuity it has decades of life expectancy rates, mortality figures and investment returns to add in to their calculations.
Some folks pay in for years, take a lifetime income stream and die two months later. Insurance company "wins". Some folks do the same and live to 105. Insurance company "loses". The key is to figure out how to balance the two out. What about single folks who pay in all their working lives (along with their employers) and die at 64 never collecting a cent? IF there was some "fair share" as you claim, what happened to THEIR SHARE?

It is, and was NOT the fault of the participants if the plan adminstrator (who in this case is the government) screwed up the formula. Maybe they should have turned it over to the insurance companies who have HUNDREDS of years of experience doing exactly what Social Security is ... and done it very profitably by using complex algorithms and investment strategies.

But no, that would require letting them invest the premiums in "wall street" god forbid and/or hedge the portfolio god forbid with "derivatives". There isn't an insurance company in existence that wouldn't take the income side of the SS equation exactly as is stands today with the current "premiums" and RUN with it laughing to profitability.

You continually are harping on the wrong folks, sport. You've been duped by the class warfare purveyors mainly on the left side of the aisle.

Stop being so naive.
 
What about standard of living?

How many of the "1 in 4" still have a cell phone with text messaging and Internet? How many eat fast food, etc. instead of cooking at home? How many are driving a car that costs over 15,000.00? Smoking cigarettes?

The standard of living is WAAAY higher now than 20 - 30 years ago. Doing without is not an option.
Which generation overwhelmingly voted in the current POTUS who got them (at least for the time being) continued medical coverage on their parents' employers' dime up to age 26?

Allows them 8 more years of laying on the couch fooling around on FB while "working" part time or "studying".

8 more years bumping along for "free" until the real world FINALLY beckons with all its inherent horrors, apparently.
 
And again I ask you with "nothing" what do you do with all this "time"? Sit around and stare out the window? Play tiddlewinks with old bottle caps with yourself?

I have no problem with minimalist living but you keep saying you are free. Free to do exactly what?

Why worry about folks driving an hour to work? Maybe they like where they live. Should that not be their choice? My friend who lives outside of Wilmington DE commutes to New York City every day to work. He LIKES living in DE. He COULD move to New York but he doesn't WANT to.

Why such an aversion to "things"? More importantly, why worry about other folks having them and/or making sacrifices to get and maintain them? Maybe owning a boat to me is far more important than hiking around in the woods. Maybe owning a new car is more desirable to me than an old one.

Live and let live.
Just letting people know there is a better way to live than consumption, for one thing. Free to retire at 40, or earlier, for another. Not buying stuff enables me to not have to work as much, and have more time for myself. I read, hike, listen to music, play computer games, and whatever else I like.

My aversion to "things" is due to the time sink. Everything you buy has to be maintained, and eventually replaced. I am not worried about what others do, just giving ideas that there is another way, besides the standard mortgage, car payment, and buying stuff. As far as the new car goes, I just don't see it being worth it. A new car doesn't do anything better than the old one I am driving, and it costs more, you have to worry about dents and scratches, ect.

People are free to buy whatever they want, but spending a fortune on a new car is foolhardy and makes them a slave to it, having to wash it, baby it, ect.

I don't expect anyone to become a minimalist overnight. It is a journey that takes years, and involves a mindset change as well. Deprogramming your mind from all the commercials and society's influence on buying stuff.

An empty bedroom to me is peaceful and relaxing. Having divorced my mind from greed and materialism, I can focus on more important matters, such as learning skills, and doing basically whatever else I want. Maybe my consciousness and mindset are hundreds of years in the future, where people don't care about owning stuff and just live. All I know is that it takes a lot more self discipline than most can manage, I figured people on a survival board would be more open to simplicity and efficiency.
 
IF YOU LIVE LIKE NO ONE ELSE, YOU WILL BE ABLE TO LIVE LIKE NO ONE ELSE!!

*SNIP

Being stupid and not having financial commen sense is why the "youth" is not more ahead. Me and my wife have chosen to pay cash on a house by the time we are 30, but we are belive God for one sooner. We will see what happens. But younger folks need to CHOOSE to build wealth.
I'm glad you picked up a David Ramsey book at your young age. Financial responsibility should be taught in schools (at least in high school). It's not. Why isn't it? I can think of many other classes that could be replaced with this.

Or be less materialistic and live in a small house, drive old cars, own used stuff, but have tons of free time. I'd rather have used beater junk and my free time than any amount of shiny toys. I paid $1300 for my last car, have had it 7 years, there are good deals out there for just about everything. I am working a lot of hours at a factory right now to pay off my student loans, but once that is over, I probably won't do anything past part time work. I manage this through rigorous financial discipline. I am spending a "lot" right now, just replacing things, doing important stuff like getting my teeth fixed and car repaired and getting some ultralight hiking gear so I don't damage my knees(problems from the military). But other than that, I buy food.

Since I barely own anything, it is more freeing. Commute an hour to work? I don't, throw your crap in the car on a day off and find a place for rent close to work. I got people at my job that drive an hour and a half to get to work, just move. Also, owning less stuff frees up all kinds of unorthodox ideas, like being able to live in a 200 sq foot house. Moving isn't a chore, you don't have to go get a uhaul or plan anything, spend 30 minutes putting your stuff in your car and you are ready. Don't get stuck in the idea of having to own a home, or a nice car. It is just stuff. Your time is your most valuable possession.
Not everyone is nomadic. Let's be realistic, some people (myself included) have children (who have their stuff), dishes, appliances, lawnmowers, you get the idea. I'm not complaining, but at YOUR stage in life, you sound like you're in a good place - a place that I was comfortable in prior to marriage and kids. Having kids changes everything, and by everything, I mean EVERYTHING.

Yes let's "get to work". "Work" being the word that is kryptonite to your generation's Superman.

Go look at ANY poll you choose ... EVERY generation when queried does not want to give up ANY benefits and by the way your generation voted for the Messiah in droves shows anyone with half a lick of sense that there is ZERO fortitude to do ANYTHING except "hope" for the best.

The only way to "fix" it is to END it. That will NEVER happen in my or your lifetime.
The first sentence of yours I quote is crap, and if you thought about it for a moment or two you'd realize that. The youth of today have virtually ZERO control over the direction things in our country are taking. This is no longer a country that builds things - so where is the real "work"? Overseas. We are increasingly becoming a nation of Services: IT; consultation; environmental; repair; sales; food; services.... Because of the global market and how we conduct ourselves in it, this problem is going to get worse before it gets better. Gone are the days when Americans made things. There are only a handful of products that are 100% made in America, by Americans. I can only think of one off of the top of my head: Maglite.

Yes, young people today make extremely stupid decisions with money. Several people here pointed out the smart-phone addiction as one of the most obvious. I wholeheartedly agree. Mobile phones are a great example of an item that did not exist just a few years ago but is now considered a necessity.

That said, there are some fundamental differences faced by young people today that the Boomers did not face. The most obvious:

The average Boomer born in 1963 came into the world at a time when the national debt was $1635 per person. Inflation adjusted that $1635 in today's dollars is $12,164.

But guess what.... today the amount each and every one of us owes is about to roll over to $50,000 per person.

Why? Take a look at this....

Take a look at WHEN we added debt. The years correspond exactly with the increasing earnings of Boomers. The more they earned the more politically active they became. They more the raised benefits while at the same time cutting taxes and borrowing.

And guess what.... the Boomers have no intention of paying back all that debt before they die. They are going to leave it to the young people to pay back while at the same time calling them lazy complainers.

Also, please note:

1) I am the OP
2) I am middle-aged
3) My wife and I have no children so, essentially, I have no dog in this fight other than truth.
Agree with everything you've said, so far ;)

As a father of children born in the early 21st century, I'm very fearful of what their future holds. My own generation is screwed on the whole, but a few of us have been able to pull ourselves out of the mire, will future generations be able to? I don't believe so, not at this rate.

I do think there's something that we, as "average" citizens can do, albeit a small thing - we could talk with our school administrators and have them add some things into the curriculum (as I posted above, financial responsibility class).

WHAT part of the entitlement "debt" goes to the non-producers? WHY does 50% of the populace pay ZERO net federal income tax?

You are blaming the "boomers" when you really should be blaming the redistributionists and socialists masquerading as Democrats.
You realize that the "boomer" generation are the re-distributionists and socialists you refer to, right? In all fairness, they're also the conservatives.

In today's world I do feel that we should give our son every advantage we can to help him become a solid and productive member of society. Not that when I grew up things were all rosy because times have been difficult for many periods over the years. I got a late start in becoming productive but finally found the right road. We have the means to offer him opportunities I never had and he has earned these benefits through good behavior, good grades and being a responsible young man.

Sure we could have used the cash to enhance our enjoyment by buying a sports car, vacations, more investments/PMs/preps or whatever but we have everything we 'need' in our current situation and most of what we 'want'.

Paying for his education may not have been the best thing in the world for him, but it sure beats seeing him try to find a high paying job to pay off student loan debt. He loves the unique area he grew up in and desires to stay locally in our small community if he can and enjoy so much the lifestyle our neighborhood provides.

My wife insisted on his education, as I may have let him go a different direction if he wished (IE, trade school or something). It is done and his schooling can never be taken from him along with all of his firearms training, conservative values and common sense we have instilled in him through his upbringing. I think we put together a good package to release into society and hopefully he will help to make a better world.

BTW, no disrespect taken and this leads to great debate and sharing of ideas. I even find myself agreeing with aramchek once in a while.;)
I too got a late start. I also still have a mountain of student loans to repay. I made my bed, so I'll lie in it. One day it'll be a thing of the past.

Most of us want better for our children than we had, I know I do, but at what point do we draw the line in the sand when it comes to providing for them? By paying our kids' rent, buying their car, paying for their education, aren't we depriving them of the very thing that we are complaining about in today's youth: a sense of responsibility and accountability?

I'm reminded of an old saying, "I'll be there to pick you up when you fall." That isn't to say I won't help my kids before they "fall," but that maybe I should, for their sakes, show restraint when doling out "freebies."

You need to COMPREHEND just how the SS income benefit was sold to the people. It was ALWAYS portrayed as an insurance policy ... just like millions of deferred annuities or defined benefit pension plans. Your constant harping on folks for "not paying their share" is completely fallacious and totally off base. That's NOT how "insurance" works. When an insurance company quotes out a guaranteed annuity it has decades of life expectancy rates, mortality figures and investment returns to add in to their calculations.
I'm 100% for privatized SS. Then again, I know it'll be gone before I retire (in it's current form). I'm sure you know how Welfare and SS began, I'd like to see them return to that...

Which generation overwhelmingly voted in the current POTUS who got them (at least for the time being) continued medical coverage on their parents' employers' dime up to age 26?

Allows them 8 more years of laying on the couch fooling around on FB while "working" part time or "studying".

8 more years bumping along for "free" until the real world FINALLY beckons with all its inherent horrors, apparently.
LOL, there is an element of truth to this. I know that I was pretty ticked off at my younger brother for helping vote in O-bum. I used to have friends that fell right into line with your generalizations - I've since acquired new friends that are more like-minded and hard-working. Six+ years ago, I'd have agreed with you 100%, but not now, not after having seen many of my friends struggling financially, working hard, and not living the lavish lifestyles that you accuse them of.

As for the negative attitudes towards my generation owning cell phones, computers, or whatever... Get over it, they're as much a part of daily life now as a newspaper was in your day. It's cheaper to have a cell phone than it is to have a landline in many places. You can't get a job if you don't apply, and almost all jobs accept resumes only through their websites. If you don't like the way youth is dependent on technology, don't make us dependent on technology. Dumbasses.
 
Absolutely, but it takes two to tango. We cut taxes while increasing spending. Who fought for those tax cuts?

And who is fighting now tooth and nail to keep all of those goodies they voted for themselves? You guessed it, AARP. Almost every Boomer is now old enough to join AARP.

AARP to Congress: Cut Waste, Not Medicare and Social Security - YouTube
You can take AARP and put them in Obama's anti-gun camp. As much as AARP claims to be for the folks they are just a huge marketing campaign for old folks products.

I will not touch an AARP membership with the proverbial 10' pole, to begin with because of their total anti gun policies. They claim to be looking out for the old folks whereas to quite the contrary they are only really looking out for their own bottom line.

BTW you can get many of the discounts offered to AARP members from AAA and get your car towed as well.
 
Not everyone is nomadic. Let's be realistic, some people (myself included) have children (who have their stuff), dishes, appliances, lawnmowers, you get the idea. I'm not complaining, but at YOUR stage in life, you sound like you're in a good place - a place that I was comfortable in prior to marriage and kids. Having kids changes everything, and by everything, I mean EVERYTHING.
You don't have to be nomadic, in fact there are minimalist families that own homes. I am currently living with friends while I work and pay off my student loans, so I am not nomadic right now. The objective is to simplify life, it is even more important for a family than a single person. The objective is not to get rid of everything you own. Some personal examples I do are:

I use conditioner as shampoo and bodywash, so the only thing in my shower is a bottle of conditioner. Doesn't sound like much of a change, but think of all the crap people have in their showers, normally.

I shave with a no guard beard trimmer. It leaves really short stubble. I don't have to worry about shaving cream, cutting myself, or buying expensive razors. It is almost as good as a blade shave, without the hassle. If you have to be clean shaven, just use an electric.

I don't own anything that needs dry cleaning, and I just throw all my laundry into one load and wash it, I haven't separated clothes in years, and they have no ill effect. I work in a factory, which makes things even easier. I wear the same pants for a week, I shave whenever I feel like it, and my pants have multiple patches on them, I fix stuff until it is literally unusable, this goes for cars, clothing, ect.

If I get married I will obviously have stuff. You need a good set of tools, for one thing, fixing home and car stuff yourself will save you a lot of money. I am not advocating throwing everything away. Just simplify, I guarantee you 98% of people out there have way more crap than they need, and the associated bills.
 
You don't have to be nomadic, in fact there are minimalist families that own homes. I am currently living with friends while I work and pay off my student loans, so I am not nomadic right now. The objective is to simplify life, it is even more important for a family than a single person. The objective is not to get rid of everything you own. Some personal examples I do are:

I use conditioner as shampoo and bodywash, so the only thing in my shower is a bottle of conditioner. Doesn't sound like much of a change, but think of all the crap people have in their showers, normally.

I shave with a no guard beard trimmer. It leaves really short stubble. I don't have to worry about shaving cream, cutting myself, or buying expensive razors. It is almost as good as a blade shave, without the hassle. If you have to be clean shaven, just use an electric.

I don't own anything that needs dry cleaning, and I just throw all my laundry into one load and wash it, I haven't separated clothes in years, and they have no ill effect. I work in a factory, which makes things even easier. I wear the same pants for a week, I shave whenever I feel like it, and my pants have multiple patches on them, I fix stuff until it is literally unusable, this goes for cars, clothing, ect.

If I get married I will obviously have stuff. You need a good set of tools, for one thing, fixing home and car stuff yourself will save you a lot of money. I am not advocating throwing everything away. Just simplify, I guarantee you 98% of people out there have way more crap than they need, and the associated bills.
You underestimate the sheer amount of crap you'll have when you do "settle" down and have a family. On the other hand, your arbitrary 98% is probably a bit low, to be honest. I know we have TONS of crap we don't need or want - and we are constantly down-sizing. I've been slacking on getting some things on craigslist to help minimize the excess.
 
There are only a handful of products that are 100% made in America, by Americans. I can only think of one off of the top of my head: Maglite.
I would think you could add Harley Davidson to that.

=crackodoom;3992348]Most of us want better for our children than we had, I know I do, but at what point do we draw the line in the sand when it comes to providing for them? By paying our kids' rent, buying their car, paying for their education, aren't we depriving them of the very thing that we are complaining about in today's youth: a sense of responsibility and accountability?


Our son earned responsibility and accountability in other ways then taking on debt to repay for his education. He isn't batting 1000 every day in life, but using his common sense and intelligence to earn a living in today's difficult economy while looking for a position to utilize his education.

Maybe we should have made him bust a$$ through school and work but his great grand father gave us the opportunity to give him the education he never had and we are proud to have done so. The only difference I would make is to push him to get the proper classes in today;s impacted educational system and graduate in 4 years instead of 5.

We live in a small mountain community and he needed to get out of dodge to a city and experience a larger community as part of his growing up. As much as he enjoyed Chico where he schooled he also realized the special qualities of his home town and has indicated a desire to live here even though it may be difficult to fully realize his education. There are a few opportunities in his field though and he is perusing them.

I think what we offered was good for him, YMMV and you should do what you feel is proper for yours.

[/quote]
 
I've come to change my analysis as I get older and it lays out like this. Left/right is meaningless at the top levels of industry, banking, government, wealth, power. Even as a powerseller myself, I don't care what my buyer's ideology is. His money is as good as anyone else's. Left/right only takes on meaning as a rhetorical device to divide-and-conquer ordinary people. In the absence of tribes that empires ordinarily pit against each other, they invented the Donkey/Blue and the Elephant/Red clans, weaken populist sentiment on both sides and conquer them both.

So each demographic is fed a steaming pile of rhetoric calculated to resonate with it. It may be that the young want socialized health care such as the elderly, veterans and prison populace enioys. Or cheap education, etc. But the historical reality behind taxation is that its purpose is to (a) enrich the crown and (b) fund wars.

So when we discuss how people vote, it should be understood that they're voting based on empty rhetoric. Higher taxes simply go to the banksters and military industrial complex, the prison industrial complex, nuclear subsidies or any number of the other industries that champions or invents some sort of "social cause" and directly profits from it.

There are few or no large industries OWNED by the workers directly of any relevance in the US. So there is no socialism at work here. Government's job is to collect taxes and pass them onto well-connected PRIVATE contractors/elite (many of them now global). So it's more like a form of fiat capitalism, mafia capitalism or plain ol' plunder economics.

It manifests as a war against the youth because none of this is sustainable. All Ponzi schemes, also, entail kicking a can down the road. Hoping that all of the shells are not lifted at the same time, or that future suckers keep previous ones from getting too nervous. As such, they're all about pushing the day of reckoning into the future -- and that means the younger generation.

http://elections.nytimes.com/2008/results/president/national-exit-polls.html

"Yet the youth vote in America favors socialists who tax and spend like crazy."

Stats from exit polls show clearly that most people under 30 years of age vote on the liberal side.

Liberals/progressives/socialists have proven time and again that they know no bounds in taxing and spending. This is not to say that George Bush was better, BTW. The fact is that nearly all politicians care only about one thing; getting elected.

Now, what were you saying about a pot and kettle?
 
The first sentence of yours I quote is crap, and if you thought about it for a moment or two you'd realize that. The youth of today have virtually ZERO control over the direction things in our country are taking. This is no longer a country that builds things - so where is the real "work"? Overseas. We are increasingly becoming a nation of Services: IT; consultation; environmental; repair; sales; food; services.... Because of the global market and how we conduct ourselves in it, this problem is going to get worse before it gets better. Gone are the days when Americans made things. There are only a handful of products that are 100% made in America, by Americans. I can only think of one off of the top of my head: Maglite
Completely false. There are companies SCREAMING for workers in the Dakotas and up in the Marcellus shale area.

I stated in another thread that I went up to Williamsport PA on business a bit ago and there are ads EVERYWHERE for jobs, jobs, jobs. Drivers, welders, laborers, riggers, floor sweepers, engineers, etc etc etc. Every radio station had ads every five minutes with 1-800 numbers to call. BIG companies too like Chesapeake Energy, Halliburton, etc. Since north central PA up until now has been a virtual ghost town there is PLENTY of affordable housing too and the climate is a bit more palatable than the Dakotas.

Sure you might have to relocate or lower your career site a bit to get in but that's LIFE. Tough times call for tough decisions. No different than in the past when folks came out of Appalachia during WW2 looking for industrial jobs, or when the cities emptied out to the suburbs for IT and financial careers.

I can't think of a better future for a young person starting out than to head for the energy field right here. They have only begun to scratch the surface of what is contained in that shale.


You realize that the "boomer" generation are the re-distributionists and socialists you refer to, right? In all fairness, they're also the conservatives.
Not so. Just as you claim it is unfair to lump all of you together as crybabies it is far more onerous to lump boomers as re-distributionists and socialists. Sure there are some ... but far more in the baby buster generation ... spawn of the hippies who never saw a "theory" in a classroom that wouldn't definitely guaranteed work in the "real world". That's who is in the current administration and Senate these days ... the spawn of hippies. LOOK at how fast they cut and run when their precious "theories" fail MISERABLY in the real world. Cut and run right back to the classroom where its all safe and no meanies can get them.


Most of us want better for our children than we had, I know I do, but at what point do we draw the line in the sand when it comes to providing for them? By paying our kids' rent, buying their car, paying for their education, aren't we depriving them of the very thing that we are complaining about in today's youth: a sense of responsibility and accountability?

I'm reminded of an old saying, "I'll be there to pick you up when you fall." That isn't to say I won't help my kids before they "fall," but that maybe I should, for their sakes, show restraint when doling out "freebies."
This is where the "boomers" made their gravest error. Spoiling their kids rotten and starting the entitlement mentality that pervades the next generation. That and the helicopter parenting that goes on today is just completely hilarious to me.


I'm 100% for privatized SS. Then again, I know it'll be gone before I retire (in it's current form).
It will be here in its current form for DECADES. You'll get your share. There is ABSOLUTELY ZERO will to do anything else but patch it. A couple of percent here or there increase in the FICA, removing the $106K cap on taxable income, and the raising of benefit ages to 67 early 70 full will do it easily.


LOL, there is an element of truth to this. I know that I was pretty ticked off at my younger brother for helping vote in O-bum. I used to have friends that fell right into line with your generalizations - I've since acquired new friends that are more like-minded and hard-working. Six+ years ago, I'd have agreed with you 100%, but not now, not after having seen many of my friends struggling financially, working hard, and not living the lavish lifestyles that you accuse them of
.

It's not lavish. That's not the point. They EXPECT, no DEMAND a standard of living that they decree should be just because they said so. Not a thought in the world nor a clue as to WHO will PAY FOR IT. No, it's all supposed to be "FREE". Their heads are full of leftist, liberal feel-good, everyone is beautiful, everyone is equal gobbledegook that is spoon fed to them from preschool. That comes from ENTITLEMENT. That comes from parents who DARE NOT EVER EVER EVER hurt their "feelings". "Timeouts" instead of good hard ass beatings. "Playdates" arranged with a minute to minute itinerary that would rival any corporate meeting schedule instead of "going outside to play". Safety helmeted and belted in bubble wrapped from their first foray out of the garage on their Big Wheel with Mommy hovering close by. Soccer games where NO ONE dared keep score and EVERYONE gets a trophy at the end. Who can blame their skewed view of REALITY? Times get a bit tough and they are totally at a loss as to what to do. Where is Mommy to kiss them and make it all better and continually reinforce that they are the bestest, smartest, brightest, cutest, most IMPORTANT person in the whole wide world. Obama and the leftists are the new "mommy". Except it's all nonsense and completely unsustainable and unworkable.

The only thing one is entitled to is the right to breathe the air. Everything else is to be EARNED. Folks only truly appreciate things that they EARN themselves.
 
Completely false. There are companies SCREAMING for workers in the Dakotas and up in the Marcellus shale area.

I stated in another thread that I went up to Williamsport PA on business a bit ago and there are ads EVERYWHERE for jobs, jobs, jobs. Drivers, welders, laborers, riggers, floor sweepers, engineers, etc etc etc. Every radio station had ads every five minutes with 1-800 numbers to call. BIG companies too like Chesapeake Energy, Halliburton, etc. Since north central PA up until now has been a virtual ghost town there is PLENTY of affordable housing too and the climate is a bit more palatable than the Dakotas.

Sure you might have to relocate or lower your career site a bit to get in but that's LIFE. Tough times call for tough decisions. No different than in the past when folks came out of Appalachia during WW2 looking for industrial jobs, or when the cities emptied out to the suburbs for IT and financial careers.

I can't think of a better future for a young person starting out than to head for the energy field right here. They have only begun to scratch the surface of what is contained in that shale.
Every single job you cited is a SERVICE job.

Also, you don't seem to realize that the jobs you're citing as example are jobs that want experienced people, not (for the most part) newbies out of school. On this, I speak from experience. Follow my logic here for a moment: Economy tanks > Millions of workers laid off > experienced talent is unemployed or underemployed > Businesses jump on the chance to hire for positions for a fraction of the pay there were doling out before the economic crisis - so, why the hell would they want a newbie out of school when they can get an experienced engineer (for example) that was flipping burgers cuz he lost his job a few months ago?

And finally, how the hell can someone relocate if they don't have a job? It wouldn't be so bad for a single person, but until that first paycheck you gotta have a place to sleep, food to eat, etc.

Not so. Just as you claim it is unfair to lump all of you together as crybabies it is far more onerous to lump boomers as re-distributionists and socialists. Sure there are some ... but far more in the baby buster generation ... spawn of the hippies who never saw a "theory" in a classroom that wouldn't definitely guaranteed work in the "real world". That's who is in the current administration and Senate these days ... the spawn of hippies. LOOK at how fast they cut and run when their precious "theories" fail MISERABLY in the real world. Cut and run right back to the classroom where its all safe and no meanies can get them.
No no no... the "baby busters" are the activists and rabble-rousers - the ones making socialistic legislation are the boomers.

This is where the "boomers" made their gravest error. Spoiling their kids rotten and starting the entitlement mentality that pervades the next generation. That and the helicopter parenting that goes on today is just completely hilarious to me.
On THIS I agree, except that the entitlement mentality isn't all-encompassing, as you may believe. Many of our youth are quickly becoming disillusioned.

Something else that I think has added to the sense of entitlement is crap like the mantra, "it's not whether you win or lose, it's how you play the game." I'm SO sick of hearing that from parents, MSM outlets, all forms of entertainment.. It's terrible, I just want to slap those assclowns. Life IS a competition, you're competing to get a job, you're competing for a voice, you're competing for loans, you're competing with yourself, with your neighbor, et cetera...

It will be here in its current form for DECADES. You'll get your share. There is ABSOLUTELY ZERO will to do anything else but patch it. A couple of percent here or there increase in the FICA, removing the $106K cap on taxable income, and the raising of benefit ages to 67 early 70 full will do it easily.
Estimates that I've seen have ranged from 2032 to 2042. That's not very many decades from my PoV. It seems that I have less faith in our gov't to run anything so I could do without the FICA increase. I could also do without raising the age of benefits.

You're right that it's not going to change anytime soon, but it will have to eventually.

It's not lavish. That's not the point. They EXPECT, no DEMAND a standard of living that they decree should be just because they said so. Not a thought in the world nor a clue as to WHO will PAY FOR IT. No, it's all supposed to be "FREE". Their heads are full of leftist, liberal feel-good, everyone is beautiful, everyone is equal gobbledegook that is spoon fed to them from preschool. That comes from ENTITLEMENT. That comes from parents who DARE NOT EVER EVER EVER hurt their "feelings". "Timeouts" instead of good hard ass beatings. "Playdates" arranged with a minute to minute itinerary that would rival any corporate meeting schedule instead of "going outside to play". Safety helmeted and belted in bubble wrapped from their first foray out of the garage on their Big Wheel with Mommy hovering close by. Soccer games where NO ONE dared keep score and EVERYONE gets a trophy at the end. Who can blame their skewed view of REALITY? Times get a bit tough and they are totally at a loss as to what to do. Where is Mommy to kiss them and make it all better and continually reinforce that they are the bestest, smartest, brightest, cutest, most IMPORTANT person in the whole wide world. Obama and the leftists are the new "mommy". Except it's all nonsense and completely unsustainable and unworkable.

The only thing one is entitled to is the right to breathe the air. Everything else is to be EARNED. Folks only truly appreciate things that they EARN themselves.
Yeah I agree that the growth of the nanny-State is worrisome.

Like I said earlier, I think that they're "waking up" really quick, and I'd say it's due to our POTUS's failures combined with our weak economy. They'd better wake up, because chances are that to survive they're gonna have to work twice as hard as me, which is... Wow, I can't even contemplate that.
 
The value of things is ordinarily hooked into the labor input.
False
Your living in the stone age Armachek!!!:D:
LTV is an outdated theory
Marx=Fail

If you add up fixed costs for an Apple Ipad 2.0
And it come out to $24.00
Then you add, say, a 20% markup
The total comes to $28.80
You think Apple should charge $28.80 for an Ipad 2.0??
Makes no sense............
Cost-plus pricing

Do you think potential home buyers us LTV to place a "value" on the home they want to buy?
They simply add a certain percentage to the total costs of building the house?
Paying NO ATTENTION to what the house down the street sold for??
 
Which generation overwhelmingly voted in the current POTUS who got them (at least for the time being) continued medical coverage on their parents' employers' dime up to age 26?

Allows them 8 more years of laying on the couch fooling around on FB while "working" part time or "studying".

8 more years bumping along for "free" until the real world FINALLY beckons with all its inherent horrors, apparently.
I had to look up these numbers just out of curiosity. Hopefully this formats ok -


Characteristics 2008

(millions) % registered % voted
Total citizen population 206.1 71.0 63.6
18 to 20 years old 10.9 53.1 44.1
21 to 24 years old 14.9 62.4 51.7
25 to 34 years old 34.2 66.4 57.0
35 to 44 years old 36.4 69.9 62.8
45 to 64 years old 73.4 74.9 69.2
65 years old and over 36.3 77.4 70.3

Male 98.8 69.1 61.5
Female 107.3 72.8 65.7



So, there were 60 million in the 18-34 year old bracket, of which 19.56 million voted. There were 146.1 million 35 and over, of which 73.76 million voted. While it is true that many in the 18-34 bracket voted for Obama it is not true that they absorb sole responsibility for Obama's win; that segment of voters was only 20.9% of the populace that made it to the polls. A whole lot of people 35-older also voted for Obama, including 53% of those that earned more than $200,000.

Is it a surprise that people with nothing will vote for someone that says he'll deliver jobs and benefits? ;)

http://www.census.gov/compendia/statab/2012/tables/12s0399.xls
 
I had to look up these numbers just out of curiosity. Hopefully this formats ok -


Characteristics 2008

(millions) % registered % voted
Total citizen population 206.1 71.0 63.6
18 to 20 years old 10.9 53.1 44.1
21 to 24 years old 14.9 62.4 51.7
25 to 34 years old 34.2 66.4 57.0
35 to 44 years old 36.4 69.9 62.8
45 to 64 years old 73.4 74.9 69.2
65 years old and over 36.3 77.4 70.3

Male 98.8 69.1 61.5
Female 107.3 72.8 65.7



So, there were 60 million in the 18-34 year old bracket, of which 19.56 million voted. There were 146.1 million 35 and over, of which 73.76 million voted. While it is true that many in the 18-34 bracket voted for Obama it is not true that they absorb sole responsibility for Obama's win; that segment of voters was only 20.9% of the populace that made it to the polls. A whole lot of people 35-older also voted for Obama, including 53% of those that earned more than $200,000.

Is it a surprise that people with nothing will vote for someone that says he'll deliver jobs and benefits? ;)

http://www.census.gov/compendia/statab/2012/tables/12s0399.xls
Not sole responsibility by any measure but they voted overwhelmingly for Obama and the left.

In 2010, distracted by FB and disillusioned by the fact that Obama didn't simply flip a switch and "fix" their various "problems" the first week in office, (a week was about the length of their attention span) they sat out the midterms which helped the right absolutely slaughter the left.

They're sitting this one out, too. The bloom as it were is off the rose. I'll give them credit for realizing that they were duped and sold a bill of goods.

Shame that folks on a board like this one allow themselves to be duped.
 
Every single job you cited is a SERVICE job.

Also, you don't seem to realize that the jobs you're citing as example are jobs that want experienced people, not (for the most part) newbies out of school. On this, I speak from experience. Follow my logic here for a moment: Economy tanks > Millions of workers laid off > experienced talent is unemployed or underemployed > Businesses jump on the chance to hire for positions for a fraction of the pay there were doling out before the economic crisis - so, why the hell would they want a newbie out of school when they can get an experienced engineer (for example) that was flipping burgers cuz he lost his job a few months ago?
Still tied to a PRODUCT which is Nat Gas or Oil. The product in this case already exists so "service" jobs are what is required. Doesn't alter the fact that five years ago these jobs and the entire industry in these locations didn't exist at all.

There are PLENTY of entry level jobs up there. Laborers only need a strong back and an open mind to follow directions.

Got news for you, my friend ... they can't fill the positions available with "experienced" OR newbies right now. There is a labor shortage there. Some of the trouble is that people don't want to work in a field where they might get dirty or sweaty anymore. Wah.

And finally, how the hell can someone relocate if they don't have a job? It wouldn't be so bad for a single person, but until that first paycheck you gotta have a place to sleep, food to eat, etc.
Beg or borrow ... hey, life is tough the tough figure it out. How does anyone go to where the work is?

No offense but you sure are offering up a lot of excuses ... helps fuel that stereotype.

On THIS I agree, except that the entitlement mentality isn't all-encompassing, as you may believe. Many of our youth are quickly becoming disillusioned.
Yes, maybe some bitter medicine and dashed "hope and change" will pay off in the long run.

Something else that I think has added to the sense of entitlement is crap like the mantra, "it's not whether you win or lose, it's how you play the game." I'm SO sick of hearing that from parents, MSM outlets, all forms of entertainment.. It's terrible, I just want to slap those assclowns. Life IS a competition, you're competing to get a job, you're competing for a voice, you're competing for loans, you're competing with yourself, with your neighbor, et cetera...
You couldn't be more right ... dead on. Every day is a competition, in every way. It is literally dog eat dog and the weak and stupid soon fall by the wayside or get trampled and used up. Every day is f your buddy day and his wife, too if he's out of town.

Playing "nice" is a short trip to being the first one out the door when the cuts come down. That IS a problem with younger folks used to "playing nice" .... no sense of when to act if blood is in the water. No one cares anymore not that they ever really did.

Estimates that I've seen have ranged from 2032 to 2042. That's not very many decades from my PoV. It seems that I have less faith in our gov't to run anything so I could do without the FICA increase. I could also do without raising the age of benefits.
2032 to 2042 WITHOUT changes. Changes ARE coming. There is NO doubt of that. FICA taxes will be raised, the income cap will come off and I'd think the age is raised incrementally just as in the 1983 revisions. I and any boomer don't like them anymore than you do ... but there is NO will to do anything else. Because "anything else" requires ending the system and replacing it with a 401k/IRA type solution. Which any time it is suggested brings out the "pushing granny off the cliff in her wheelchair" and "evil Wall Street" stereotypical screeching from the left. So forget that. What I fear most is "means testing" which penalizes the thrifty and the savers.

Yeah I agree that the growth of the nanny-State is worrisome.

Like I said earlier, I think that they're "waking up" really quick, and I'd say it's due to our POTUS's failures combined with our weak economy. They'd better wake up, because chances are that to survive they're gonna have to work twice as hard as me, which is... Wow, I can't even contemplate that
I really hope you are right. Eh, we've always been adaptable and maybe that generation will adapt too. As you say they better.
 
You underestimate the sheer amount of crap you'll have when you do "settle" down and have a family. On the other hand, your arbitrary 98% is probably a bit low, to be honest. I know we have TONS of crap we don't need or want - and we are constantly down-sizing. I've been slacking on getting some things on craigslist to help minimize the excess.
I know you'll have more stuff as a homeowner, as I mentioned, a good set of tools. But the things I did mention have no "cost" as far as sacrificing anything(as in, conditioner does a good job as shampoo and soap, you don't sacrifice cleanliness for the simplicity gained).

Of course, your kids are going to have toys and stuff, but they don't need many, honestly. My favorites as a kid was lincoln logs, legos, and clay. I liked using my imagination with toys, way too many today are pre made toys that you can't do anything with, and teach kids materialism as well. I also played outside a lot, and made some of my own toys. I'd say honestly, with 3 or so kids, all their toys should fit in an average kitchen garbage sack. That is just an idea.

Use a couple towels for each person, and have them wash them with their laundry, and hang them to dry.

I agree with downsizing, it will save you money. You can buy a smaller house, as one example.

I never had plans to get married, wasn't even looking for a girl, really. I have had a good factory job for the last 4 months, and my dental insurance kicked in. I picked a random dentist on the list, purely because they were close to my house. So, the assistant is amazingly attractive, easy to talk to, funny, and very smart. She is the niece of the dentist, who is very good. So by pure chance, I found the girl I have been looking for for years, she likes hiking too, which is one of my favorite activities.

So now, I face two paths. One, ask her out and see where it leads, just knowing what I know now about her, I would give serious consideration to marriage if it came to that. I think it would be enjoyable.

My other path is my original plan when I got the job. Get a good paying factory job, take all the overtime offered, and be frugal at the same time. Pay off my student loans as fast as possible, save up about 10 grand, and get my VA disability taken care of in the 2-3 years it takes me to pay the loans off. Spend the rest of my life wandering, seeing the country, and hiking all the trails.

That decision seemed clear cut until I saw that girl and talked to her. She is very hot, but it is deeper than that. If she was simply good looking, it wouldn't be an issue, but she loves to learn and seek knowledge. Being she is from Croatia, I am hoping she hasn't been infected with American materialism, but her accent is mostly "normal" so she probably moved here at a young age. The litmus test will be when she sees my old beater I drive. Will she realize that possessions do not determine who you really are, or will she be shallow and say, "no thanks". That is the litmus test for a girl worth keeping, for me, at least one of them.
 
Absolute governments (though the disgrace of human nature) have this advantage with them, that they are simple; if the people suffer, they know the head from which their suffering springs, know likewise the remedy, and are not bewildered by a variety of causes and cures. But the constitution of England is so exceedingly complex, that the nation may suffer for years together without being able to discover in which part the fault lies, some will say in one and some in another, and every political physician will advise a different medicine. - Thomas Paine

All of the verbal jousting reminded me of this passage. We're all "political physicians".
The Constitution was supposed to keep this sort of thing from happening. The problem is that it only works if it is followed, and it has not been for quite some time.

"Kids these days are lazy"..."Old farts used everything up"

Wrong on both counts. The federal gubermunt has screwed both groups.
The youth then say that "the old folks voted for the ones that screwed it up".
Most of the young people that voted, voted for Obama. How is that any better?

Aside from complaining, what are you young people doing about this issue?

So the old farts let the gubermunt get out of hand, and are now too old to do anything about it. The ball is in your court. That is what we call reality.
 
I know you'll have more stuff as a homeowner, as I mentioned, a good set of tools. But the things I did mention have no "cost" as far as sacrificing anything(as in, conditioner does a good job as shampoo and soap, you don't sacrifice cleanliness for the simplicity gained).

Of course, your kids are going to have toys and stuff, but they don't need many, honestly. My favorites as a kid was lincoln logs, legos, and clay. I liked using my imagination with toys, way too many today are pre made toys that you can't do anything with, and teach kids materialism as well. I also played outside a lot, and made some of my own toys. I'd say honestly, with 3 or so kids, all their toys should fit in an average kitchen garbage sack. That is just an idea.

Use a couple towels for each person, and have them wash them with their laundry, and hang them to dry.

I agree with downsizing, it will save you money. You can buy a smaller house, as one example.

I never had plans to get married, wasn't even looking for a girl, really. I have had a good factory job for the last 4 months, and my dental insurance kicked in. I picked a random dentist on the list, purely because they were close to my house. So, the assistant is amazingly attractive, easy to talk to, funny, and very smart. She is the niece of the dentist, who is very good. So by pure chance, I found the girl I have been looking for for years, she likes hiking too, which is one of my favorite activities.

So now, I face two paths. One, ask her out and see where it leads, just knowing what I know now about her, I would give serious consideration to marriage if it came to that. I think it would be enjoyable.

My other path is my original plan when I got the job. Get a good paying factory job, take all the overtime offered, and be frugal at the same time. Pay off my student loans as fast as possible, save up about 10 grand, and get my VA disability taken care of in the 2-3 years it takes me to pay the loans off. Spend the rest of my life wandering, seeing the country, and hiking all the trails.

That decision seemed clear cut until I saw that girl and talked to her. She is very hot, but it is deeper than that. If she was simply good looking, it wouldn't be an issue, but she loves to learn and seek knowledge. Being she is from Croatia, I am hoping she hasn't been infected with American materialism, but her accent is mostly "normal" so she probably moved here at a young age. The litmus test will be when she sees my old beater I drive. Will she realize that possessions do not determine who you really are, or will she be shallow and say, "no thanks". That is the litmus test for a girl worth keeping, for me, at least one of them.
I told you a while back that no one can predict the future .... where they will "be" in a couple of years let alone a decade or two.

See what happens? When you least expect it LIFE happens.

THAT is why you need to have BALANCE. Too far in either direction leads to ultimate unhappiness and regret.

Good for you, though, in at least taking an interest in a possible relationship/friendship whatever with a gal.

Loneliness long term is no fun.
 
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