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The main problem I see here is, he's ignoring things like water, and to a lesser degree, food. If there's a disaster or systemic collapse it's not at all certain the utilities will keep working, and without water you will not last long at all. And in a city, it's not as if you can drill a well, or wander down to the creek and dip a bucket in. Well, if you live in a part of the city near an open river or bay, you MIGHT be able to do that. But given that if the utilities DO go out, people will be dumping their sewage anywhere they can, including into rivers and bays, you might not WANT to... You can store up enough food to get through a crisis, maybe, but water is very bulky and MUCH more vital.
I drove through a city in Tajikistan where women were lined up on the bridge throwing bucket tied to ropes into a river for water. That is exactly what people will do. And I can see people that were unprepared for SHingTF realizing that some people have food and supplies but no water and figuring out how to trade the latter for the former.

I think the interesting part of the article is not that people get busy doing things they are inefficient at, its that people who have enjoyed the advancements of technology will be trying to reinvent it.

Think plumbing. We all have a working knowledge of it but if we need something serious done, we call in the plumber. Tradesmen will be very valuable in SHTF world because they know the ins and outs of how stuff works and they don't have learn it for the first in a SHTF situation.

I agree that city is the way to go. It will certainly be harder to get surrounded in the city!
 
100% agree.

Well I'm glad the folks from big cities are confident in their decision to stay put. I'd hate for them to come slithering out into the country trying to confiscate our crops or our stores of fuel, seed, fertilizer, ag equipment.

Much better if you smart guys try growing your own food by digging up the local golf course using pointed sticks and plant the hybrid seeds you find in your wal mart.

Basically, you guys don't have a friggen clue.
My house is heated with wood
Soybeans make great biodiesel
Corn makes great ethanol
Wood gasifiers will run generators

I'm thinking....Hank Williams"country boy can survive"...but this song won't get out of my head!
 
Another thing about the "farming the golf courses" comments.

Anyone with a BOL where they plan to do subsistence farming you better....

1) Plant your subsistence garden in the exact configuration you think you need for survival every spring. If SHTF in July, you won't have a full crop until the next fall so you better have..

2) Enough food to get you to the next harvest season, as in at least a year and half. And next harvest season, you better have...

3) Some way to store your harvest. Root cellars, salt, canning supplies, wheat grinders. How many pint and quart jars will you need? Lids?

Without long term food storage and preservation abilities, you are an Afghani. You might as well start growing poppies that don't need refrigeration (which is exactly why they do it. I saw Afghanis clearing snow to dig carrots just for this reason.)

My point is: if your plan is a countryside BOL, you need to do everything pre-shtf that you would do post shtf. If you are already putting your homegrown food up then you should be just fine. If you aren't, you a city person in the country being forced to make your preps last as long as possible.
 
Not at all. You need to talk to somd depression era folks.
most of the country lived rurally during the depression, today it's high density housing.

Smaller living spaces (apartments) packed with people, use less heat, electricity (or candles).
the fuel will come from where ?

The main issue will become security, where the city also is safer IMHO. I rely on Ferfal mostly for this conclusion.
cities are are crime plagued now there's no reason to expect that to change with food, water and other resources

BYW, the cities all have green areas, many yards, etc. sufficinet for square foot gardens. Human waste????Toilets would still work.
most cities rely on energy to run treatment and water systems they very little to no capacity to store potable water. apartments and condos are going to be a problem we have some 20 story condo's here imagine a daily ritual of getting water to a 20 th floor condo up the star 5 gallons at a time how will this workout for a 50-70 year old person


In the Depression, the country was a very tough stay. Selling apples on the street corner or pushing a broom was not much, but the jobs, when avail were in the cities.

Now we have to factor in that the country was largly left out of the Roaring 20's and the Dust Bowl Expereince, but the Countryside was no place to be in the 30's.
in Oregon the countryside was nice my grandparents always had food to ear and work.



The fantasy here is that somehow a BOL will become a subsistence farm, a highly unlikely event.
I agree! The other fantasy is that cities will become magic utopias but everything in cities is built around cheap energy.


I'm on 1/3 acre and feel I could double my garden if needed.[/QUOTE]
 
Face it, if you're not prepared what difference does it make? Really in a total SHTF situation people in the country will be just as clueless as city people. Its a false assumption that people in the country know how to farm/ranch more so than city folk.
 
Face it, if you're not prepared what difference does it make? Really in a total SHTF situation people in the country will be just as clueless as city people. Its a false assumption that people in the country know how to farm/ranch more so than city folk.

I totally agree but there a more pressing issues read below!


Kabar67 I got rushed so i couldn't complete what i wanted .


lets do the math for Portland Oregon. Portland is 134 Sq miles of land ..we have the largest urban forest park in the country by the way included ad well !

How much land it takes to feed one person for a year varies. I've heard as low as half acre to 1 acre to support one person on a plant-based diet that includes very little meat i'll stick with 1 acre to keep it simple.

number of Sq miles in Portland 134.
number of acres to a square mile 640
total acreage support to feed 85,760 people

so at one acre you could support 85,760 people but thats not even realistic! Because that 134 sq miles. 85,760 acres includes roads, homes, office buildings parking lots and other structureless.

lets stick with the 640 Sq miles/ 85,760 acres ...say you can feed a person on 1/2 acre 171,520
or 1/4 acre 343,040

You still can't supply Portland's 582,130 population (as of 2009)
 
Face it, if you're not prepared what difference does it make? Really in a total SHTF situation people in the country will be just as clueless as city people. Its a false assumption that people in the country know how to farm/ranch more so than city folk.
Yes, there are many folks in the country that do not currently grow a garden. Not as many as ten years ago. Planting fruit trees, gardens, and raising chickens have become a very popular response to the poor economy.

Many of my neighbors do not own a tractor or have years of experience farming and raising livestock. But I do. I help my neighbors become more sell sufficient in order to make my self more secure.

The big issue for folks in the cities to accept is that nearly all of their food comes from the large mono culture corporate farms. These farms are completely dependent on cheap supplies of electric power, diesel fuel, ag chemicals, and migrant labor. Take away any of these ingredient and the food stops. These corporate farms will fail and the cities have too little land to grow their own food. Some cities in the desert south west don't have the rainfall required either.

The country folk on this thread are suggesting they can survive on that other type of farm. The small family farm that raises grain and livestock and sells sweet corn and peaches at the farmers market. These multi crop balanced farms are rare these days. You have to build your own and you have to do this without help from the bank.

So if we are facing a real end of the world S#%? storm that permanently disrupts the power grid, oil refineries, and ag chemicals, finding food will become everyones top priority. The only way to find it is to steal it, or raise it.

My experience growing up on a multi crop grain and livestock farm suggests that a family of 6 will need 12-15 acres to produce that food year round and that trading your excess with your close neighbors will be common.

City folks with gardening and orchard experience will be welcome. I have 64 ac and I'm going to need the help.
 
My grandparents had a subsistence farm in the most remote parts of the Adirondacks and barely noticed the great Depression. Matter of fact, it made them a few bucks as they were able to trade goods for land :thumb:

Of course, I live in a city, and depending on what the SHTF situation is, I'd likely be bugging out.
 
Jeez. I thought it was about being prepared for the area you live in. But apparently we're all going to die no matter what. I might as well go find a bridge now.
It is about survival!!! not about survival where you are at. If you live in phoenix AZ, 29 palms California, or any area that can not offer a sustainable life... you need to plan on getting out -

((Now I suppose somebody will post about how it is going to be better to live in the desert))
 
For over a century my clan has been in the same spot. We only got electricity in the 50's. The nearest city is over 300 miles away, across mountain passes. Its a fair sized ranch in the mountains. It snowed five inches just last night...spring doesnt even really start here untill around May. All the gear and equipment my Great Great Grandfather used is sitting there just waiting for the day its needed. Everything we have now is gravy..if the fuel runs out out we just shift gears and break out the draft horse equipment. If the lights go out we just get into the oil lamps. All the houses use wood heat from the tree's growing ten yards away. There are lots of diesel tanks scattered around the back forty's for our "modern" equipment.

We would use cattle as money, as we alway's have and currently still do. It just wouldn't be for cash if there was a total collapse. Unless you have a horse calvery (basically we do) and can travel 400 miles to get to our winter/summer/spring grazing grounds to attempt "cattle rustling" you're SOL. Either lodgepolled or hanging is the standard response to livestock theft. There are still vast tracts of no-man's land around our area. We know every hill, every draw, every spring and creek. We know all the lookout's. I can see dust from a car from almost twenty miles away if I'm in "the" spot. We would use a galloper to spread any word, to ourselves and neighbors.

We need nothing...and a city could provide us nothing of value, just gravy. A city can't supply seeds, or anything we need to continue our business. We have supplies, and gravy we can trade for...just like we'd trade cattle for supplies we need to continue operations. We don't need help with anything, and frankly I'd have no time to teach what needs done.

Steak tastes fine with no gravy.

Sure anything anyone has can be taken by enough force, by enough want. But you'd pay that price dearly out here.

What do you need in the cities? Everything depends on fuel, electricity, and a means to bring supplies in. There's barely three weeks of supply on shelves, most stores don't even have a overstock inventory in the back anymore. They call or email to get supplies sent next day, next order.

Its a good feeling not needing or wanting anything.-WW
 
For over a century my clan has been in the same spot. We only got electricity in the 50's. The nearest city is over 300 miles away, across mountain passes. Its a fair sized ranch in the mountains. It snowed five inches just last night...spring doesnt even really start here untill around May. All the gear and equipment my Great Great Grandfather used is sitting there just waiting for the day its needed. Everything we have now is gravy..if the fuel runs out out we just shift gears and break out the draft horse equipment. If the lights go out we just get into the oil lamps. All the houses use wood heat from the tree's growing ten yards away. There are lots of diesel tanks scattered around the back forty's for our "modern" equipment.

We would use cattle as money, as we alway's have and currently still do. It just wouldn't be for cash if there was a total collapse. Unless you have a horse calvery (basically we do) and can travel 400 miles to get to our winter/summer/spring grazing grounds to attempt "cattle rustling" you're SOL. Either lodgepolled or hanging is the standard response to livestock theft. There are still vast tracts of no-man's land around our area. We know every hill, every draw, every spring and creek. We know all the lookout's. I can see dust from a car from almost twenty miles away if I'm in "the" spot. We would use a galloper to spread any word, to ourselves and neighbors.

We need nothing...and a city could provide us nothing of value, just gravy. A city can't supply seeds, or anything we need to continue our business. We have supplies, and gravy we can trade for...just like we'd trade cattle for supplies we need to continue operations. We don't need help with anything, and frankly I'd have no time to teach what needs done.

Steak tastes fine with no gravy.

Sure anything anyone has can be taken by enough force, by enough want. But you'd pay that price dearly out here.

What do you need in the cities? Everything depends on fuel, electricity, and a means to bring supplies in. There's barely three weeks of supply on shelves, most stores don't even have a overstock inventory in the back anymore. They call or email to get supplies sent next day, next order.

Its a good feeling not needing or wanting anything.-WW
We have a ranch, too, and all I want to know is: What are you smokin'? :rolleyes:
 
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