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jea

· Permabear
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Just got another update from John Williams, who runs the site Shadow Stats. For those not familiar with his work, he calculates statistics such as CPI and unemployment using the same statistical methods used in the early 80s. Below is a chart comparing the latest BLS published CPI (blue, left axis) and the Shadow Stats alternate CPI (red, left axis) since 1970. Just out of curiosity, I overlayed a plot of the the price of gold over the same period (yellow, right axis).

While I'm happy to see the price of my stack going up, in real terms the price hasn't changed..
Image
 
A self owned bank and/or insurance policy showing 55 year coverage and liquidity.
Not a poor example of how standing outside the masses can be beneficial.
God help us when the trigger point of realization is performed, and the masses see.
 
So the way it works is:

Certificates of Deposits and Bonds are safe investments, but have a small return
Gold does better than Certificates of Deposits and Bonds, and are safer than stocks
Stocks do better than gold in the long term, but are subject to volatility.
 
I used to follow Shadow Stats back in the day but became a bit disillusioned when digging deeper into his methodology. There is endless debate on both sides but when challenged in the past Mr. Williams has hard pressed to bring forth specific examples pertaining to his claims.

Gold and the S& P pretty much run neck and neck as per inflation in your premise.

However as an investment the S&P 500 with dividends reinvested absolutely train lengthed gold from 1970 to 2024. So if one is concerned solely on keeping up with OR beating "inflation" a total ROI on the choice of investment might be a better barometer of that.

The default protection that gold offers vs stocks is definitely a factor also. But a time frame of 1970 to 2024 which is a longer time frame that 95% of careers or "investment/saving years" for a person is a pretty good predictor. Also a 54 year time frame that included multiple seminal events ... Black Friday, Savings and Loan debacle, Dotcom crash, 9/11, 08/09, and so forth. Not exactly a time of the market going straight up which it never does anyway.

Williams not changing his methodology to account for a vastly different economy and society with ever changing habits and needs that are key to "inflation" is the issue here. It's a good debate I suppose.

  • S&P 500:
    A $100 investment in the S&P 500 in 1970, with dividends reinvested, would have grown to over $26,700 by 2024, according to one source. This represents an annualized return of approximately 10.84% per year, according to another source.
  • Gold:
    The same $100 invested in gold in 1970 would have been worth around $7,000 in 2024, according to Investopedia.
  • Outperformance:
    The S&P 500's performance, including dividend reinvestment, significantly outpaced gold's growth over this period.


  • Volatility:
    While gold has shown periods of higher volatility, the S&P 500 has also experienced periods of significant price swings, particularly during economic downturns.

  • Diversification:
    Gold can offer diversification benefits to a portfolio due to its low correlation with stocks during certain periods, but its lower long-term returns should be considered.

  • Default Risk:
    A key advantage of gold is that it does not default or go to zero, unlike stocks, which can experience bankruptcy.
 
I used to follow Shadow Stats back in the day but became a bit disillusioned when digging deeper into his methodology. There is endless debate on both sides but when challenged in the past Mr. Williams has hard pressed to bring forth specific examples pertaining to his claims.

Gold and the S& P pretty much run neck and neck as per inflation in your premise.

However as an investment the S&P 500 with dividends reinvested absolutely train lengthed gold from 1970 to 2024. So if one is concerned solely on keeping up with OR beating "inflation" a total ROI on the choice of investment might be a better barometer of that.

The default protection that gold offers vs stocks is definitely a factor also. But a time frame of 1970 to 2024 which is a longer time frame that 95% of careers or "investment/saving years" for a person is a pretty good predictor. Also a 54 year time frame that included multiple seminal events ... Black Friday, Savings and Loan debacle, Dotcom crash, 9/11, 08/09, and so forth. Not exactly a time of the market going straight up which it never does anyway.

Williams not changing his methodology to account for a vastly different economy and society with ever changing habits and needs that are key to "inflation" is the issue here. It's a good debate I suppose.

  • S&P 500:
    A $100 investment in the S&P 500 in 1970, with dividends reinvested, would have grown to over $26,700 by 2024, according to one source. This represents an annualized return of approximately 10.84% per year, according to another source.
  • Gold:
    The same $100 invested in gold in 1970 would have been worth around $7,000 in 2024, according to Investopedia.
  • Outperformance:
    The S&P 500's performance, including dividend reinvestment, significantly outpaced gold's growth over this period.


  • Volatility:
    While gold has shown periods of higher volatility, the S&P 500 has also experienced periods of significant price swings, particularly during economic downturns.

  • Diversification:
    Gold can offer diversification benefits to a portfolio due to its low correlation with stocks during certain periods, but its lower long-term returns should be considered.

  • Default Risk:
    A key advantage of gold is that it does not default or go to zero, unlike stocks, which can experience bankruptcy.
Agreed. He didn't account for things like hedonic adjustments which, IMO, are crucial for understanding all this.

Yeah, so the price of beef has ballooned; I switch to pork and chicken, and my life, other than not having a steak, isn't really changed.

Same with other things. Further, prices increasing isn't the real definition of "inflation," which is an increase in the money supply. Beef is up because the herds have shrunk, and that's a supply and demand issue, NOT inflation.

I have utility bills from back in 2002; back then, I paid about 7 cents per kilowatt hour. Today, it's about 15.9 cents per kilowatt hour. So the increase has been about 127 percent in those 23 years.

While that's not nothing, and it actually suggests a utility price increase rate of about 3.6 percent, it's not as much as he suggests.

Same thing goes for a lot of other items and services.

You're right, what we buy today is not the same as what it used to be. Cellphones, for instance. Streaming services. Satellite or cable TV. I grew up during a time when television came over the airwaves and was free if you had a TV and rabbit-ears antennae.

And cars--the first car I ever owned, a used 1964 Dodge Polara, had an AM radio, a heater, and automatic transmission. That was it.

Interval wipers were accomplished by turning them on...then off. No air conditioning. No rear-window defogger (I installed one). No FM radio (I added a tuner for that). No cruise control. No backup camera. No satellite radio. No GPS on the car's screen run from my cellphone. No moonroof, no power windows, no traction control, no lane-keeping assist, no computer telling you real-time your mileage...and the list goes on.

So, yeah, cars are more expensive but are they worth it?

* * * * *​

As an aside, just because I'm on a roll, does it cost more in gasoline to drive a mile today than it did 50 years ago? If you take into account the improved mileage of cars today, control for something like minimum wage as a baseline income, you'll find it's as cheap or cheaper to drive a mile today, in terms of gasoline expended, than compared to 50 years ago.

My Dodge Polara got 15 mpg on the highway. Today my Ford Escape will get in the middle 30s, more than double the mileage. Fifty years ago minimum wage was $2.20/hour; today it's $7.75. Gas back then cost 50 cents a gallon; today, about $3 (depending where you live, of course).

Back then, you could buy 4.4 gallons of gas with an hour of minimum wage; that would take you (4.4 x 15mpg) about 66 miles. That is, an hour's minimum wage would let you drive, in terms of gasoline cost, 66 miles.

Today, the min wage of $7.75 will allow you to buy 2.58 gallons of gas. Multiplied by what my Escape gets today for mpg (35mpg), you can drive 90.3 miles.

I'm not saying that's all that's involved, but it's an interesting illustration of just how hard it is to figure out how much prices have increased.

And yes, you can manipulate the assumptions until the cows come home, but things are not just as John Williams suggests.

* * * * *​

And because I always like to look at both sides of the issue, we recently had our roof replaced due to storm damage. Cost? About $25,000.

Back in 2009, 16 years ago, we had it replaced for the same reason; cost back then? $7,300.

Some things have gone up a LOT more.
 
According to Gronk AI since 2000.

  • Gold Total Return: 1,048.26% (CAGR ~10.04%)
  • S&P 500 (SPY) Total Return: 561.04% (CAGR ~7.59%)
Thats 25 years and gold is smoking the S&P. The funny thing is people still think the S&P's return with dividends reinvested at 561% is more than 1048% this Century, weird huh?

But hey this don't include fees on the S&P in your account and your broker don't make money on PM's only on those fees. And besides the Fiat dollar is backed up by the full faith and credit of Uncle Sam. And we all have faith in them and their credit and credibility is top notch right?

Just wait until the next round of inflation to see what PM's do.

Image
 
According to Gronk AI since 2000.

  • Gold Total Return: 1,048.26% (CAGR ~10.04%)
  • S&P 500 (SPY) Total Return: 561.04% (CAGR ~7.59%)
Fake News
AI is wrong.

Correct statistical data.

Another article.

Third Article
Your prices do not include dividends, only prices. If you include dividends, S&P500 performs better.


Anyone that keeps a portfolio with these in them (like I do), can look at them in real time. I can tell you from that, that the S&P500 performs better, in an IRA, if you include dividends.
 
Fake News
AI is wrong.

Correct statistical data.

Another article.

Third Article
Your prices do not include dividends, only prices. If you include dividends, S&P500 performs better.


Anyone that keeps a portfolio with these in them (like I do), can look at them in real time. I can tell you from that, that the S&P500 performs better, in an IRA, if you include dividends.
See I told you folks People think less in % get more.


Yes this includes dividends as that is constantly the pushback and yes since the year 2000, you know when the debt began, Gold is beating the S&P with dividends. Its not my opinion its math not broker math or CNBC math or government statistician math it simple percentage math.

This is from the link you posted year 2000 to present. More fake news huh?
Image


Here is the day we left the gold standard to present.
Image


To be fair I don't think these include dividends or fees of the S&P. By all means check for yourself.
 
See I told you folks People think less in % get more.


Yes this includes dividends as that is constantly the pushback and yes since the year 2000, you know when the debt began, Gold is beating the S&P with dividends. Its not my opinion its math not broker math or CNBC math or government statistician math it simple percentage math.

This is from the link you posted year 2000 to present. More fake news huh?
View attachment 612807

Here is the day we left the gold standard to present.
View attachment 612808

To be fair I don't think these include dividends or fees of the S&P. By all means check for yourself.
The debate here was from 1970 NOT 2000 in a discussion over a specific inflation calculation metric. It wasn't a discussion about a vs b it is a discussion about how a or b compares to an inflation metric what we were discussing.

I'll go cherrypick some years where the S& P demolished gold if you'd like.
 
According to Gronk AI since 2000.

  • Gold Total Return: 1,048.26% (CAGR ~10.04%)
  • S&P 500 (SPY) Total Return: 561.04% (CAGR ~7.59%)
Thats 25 years and gold is smoking the S&P. The funny thing is people still think the S&P's return with dividends reinvested at 561% is more than 1048% this Century, weird huh?

But hey this don't include fees on the S&P in your account and your broker don't make money on PM's only on those fees. And besides the Fiat dollar is backed up by the full faith and credit of Uncle Sam. And we all have faith in them and their credit and credibility is top notch right?

Just wait until the next round of inflation to see what PM's do.

View attachment 612777
OK now that you did "debt" now do assets backing that debt.

Start here:

The total value of private assets in the U.S. is estimated to be in the hundreds of trillions of dollars, with the latest estimates placing it around $160.35 trillion. This figure represents the combined wealth of U.S. households, encompassing everything they own minus their liabilities

And that is just We The People assets NOT the government or public assets.
 
OK now that you did "debt" now do assets backing that debt.

Start here:

The total value of private assets in the U.S. is estimated to be in the hundreds of trillions of dollars, with the latest estimates placing it around $160.35 trillion. This figure represents the combined wealth of U.S. households, encompassing everything they own minus their liabilities

And that is just We The People assets NOT the government or public assets.
Oh well the SSI and Medicare unfunded liabilities are about 175 trillion. Household debt is about 18 trillion. And the real kicker is the growth rate of the unfunded liabilities is higher than GDP.

So while the private paper assets are high the estimated debt is higher. The next recession will make this apparent to the average Jo. At best you have about 7 years until the debt becomes noticeable to everyone. This is when the interest will not be sustainable.

But I know the debt does not matter until it matters and when it does its all that will matter.
 
The debate here was from 1970 NOT 2000 in a discussion over a specific inflation calculation metric. It wasn't a discussion about a vs b it is a discussion about how a or b compares to an inflation metric what we were discussing.

I'll go cherrypick some years where the S& P demolished gold if you'd like.
I picked those dates for 2 reasons.

First August 15th 1971 was the removal of the gold standard. Second 2000 was the year the debt began to explode.

I never claimed the S&P does not beat gold in some years but the S&P vs gold is not a 100% win for the S&P like everyone claims. Gold has beaten the S&P 24 years out of 54 years going back to 1970. Most people have no idea that is true.

Going back to 2000 gold has beaten the S&P 14 out of 25 years. Then people tell me how gold is a terrible investment then invest in the S&P. This is a result of public schooling and propaganda. The math is not my opinion its math.

Billionaire hedge fund managers are buying gold like Ray Dalio, John Paulson, Seth Klarman, Jeffrey Gundlach, Andrew Law, and Stanley Druckenmiller. These are people who are legends in investing. What do they see coming?
 
Oh well the SSI and Medicare unfunded liabilities are about 175 trillion. Household debt is about 18 trillion. And the real kicker is the growth rate of the unfunded liabilities is higher than GDP.

So while the private paper assets are high the estimated debt is higher. The next recession will make this apparent to the average Jo. At best you have about 7 years until the debt becomes noticeable to everyone. This is when the interest will not be sustainable.

But I know the debt does not matter until it matters and when it does its all that will matter.
In your haste to reply you missed the part where the $160 Trillion was the NET asset holdings. Net means after "household debt" and other liabilities were subtracted.

Private paper assets? LMAO. You do realize I hope that 40% of homeowners do not have a mortgage. That's just one asset class that isn't "paper" .... or at least depending on the discussion in here from time to time is held as important as anything else.

The "SSI and Medicare" "unfunded liabilities" will be funded and soon. Book it. Just as they were in 1983 the last time the system was "broke". It's EASILY fixed ... well fixed for another 35 or 40 years or so just like in the 1983 Revisions and that's all anyone including everyone on this board (if they are being completely honest) cares about at the end of the day. Certainly the politicians who WILL "fix it" (because there is really no other choice) only care about that time frame.

I also intentionally omitted the assets that the government both federal, state, and local "own". Including vast swaths of incredibly valuable land.

Do you know how many times in the last 50 years I've heard "Well seven more years and that's it". Yawn.
 
I picked those dates for 2 reasons.

First August 15th 1971 was the removal of the gold standard. Second 2000 was the year the debt began to explode.

I never claimed the S&P does not beat gold in some years but the S&P vs gold is not a 100% win for the S&P like everyone claims. Gold has beaten the S&P 24 years out of 54 years going back to 1970. Most people have no idea that is true.

Going back to 2000 gold has beaten the S&P 14 out of 25 years. Then people tell me how gold is a terrible investment then invest in the S&P. This is a result of public schooling and propaganda. The math is not my opinion its math.

Billionaire hedge fund managers are buying gold like Ray Dalio, John Paulson, Seth Klarman, Jeffrey Gundlach, Andrew Law, and Stanley Druckenmiller. These are people who are legends in investing. What do they see coming?
The discussion was and is as far as I'm concerned centered on the flawed inflation shadow stats model. You morphed it into an A vs B comparison. The shadow stats discussion centered on 1970 until now. You interjected 2000 to 2024. Great. Who cares? That's not the discussion.

No one is arguing gold as a holding just as no one can argue that the S&P, et al are another way to keep up with inflation long term.

The discussion is whether or not shadow stats which I stated I used to follow back in the day is RELEVANT today because the model as presented has not been updated or modified to reflect current economic and societal trends.

Simple.
 
The discussion was and is as far as I'm concerned centered on the flawed inflation shadow stats model. You morphed it into an A vs B comparison. The shadow stats discussion centered on 1970 until now. You interjected 2000 to 2024. Great. Who cares? That's not the discussion.

No one is arguing gold as a holding just as no one can argue that the S&P, et al are another way to keep up with inflation long term.

The discussion is whether or not shadow stats which I stated I used to follow back in the day is RELEVANT today because the model as presented has not been updated or modified to reflect current economic and societal trends.

Simple.
Yeas the shadow stats numbers use the old methods to calculate things like inflation. Today the government has updated their CPI for the current economic and societal trends as to fool people. For example if the price spikes in beef then add more chicken. I guess if chicken spikes people can eat bugs and inflation goes down.

My whole point is gold it keeping with inflation better than the S&P this century. I also have heard the argument that the US is going bankrupt for years but the difference now is the debt and interest are growing faster than GDP while wages have been lacking GDP since we left the gold standard in 1971.

The reason I say about 7 years is the debt based system cannot allow the debt to fall or we get recession at best. In just a few years the interest on the debt is unsustainable. This is basic math.

This years major government spending estimates
Medicare Medicaid 1.7 trillion
SSI 1.5 trillion
Defense .9 trillion
Interest 1 trillion

Total 5.1 trillion Not counting all other spending not mentioned above

Government revenue 5.17 trillion
Government spending 7.2 trillion

At this rate the debt will be over 50 trillion in 2030. Thats 5 years away and interest is now the fastest growing item in the budget. Interest could pass SSI debt in 2028.

You think this is sustainable? What happens when all the taxes go to pay interest? What happens when we have a recession and we send out more checks and dump, print, 10 or 15 trillion into the economy to get it going. That's what is coming next because it was so popular last time.

 
In your haste to reply you missed the part where the $160 Trillion was the NET asset holdings. Net means after "household debt" and other liabilities were subtracted.
In your haste to not understand government accounting and the debt they do not report on the balance sheet, unfunded liabilities, you forgot that these numbers are not being accounted for. So lets subtract the 175 trillion from your 160 trillion so we can count it right, right?

So Net is 160 minus the 175 (unfunded liabilities not reported yet) is -15 trillion by your own numbers.
 
I’ve never bought into the gold as an investment concept. At best it’s a poor investment. It is a great form of insurance. A hedge if you will. It’s not perfect even as a hedge. It has and can once again devalue affective.y to zero I.e become worthless at least in certain areas and for periods of time
I buy gold and other precious metals as an insurance policy. Most of the time the precious metals I purchase accrue value in terms of dollars at about the same rate as inflation. Factor in the added costs when you buy and sell the metals and the investment value diminishes even more. Sure you can “invest” tons of your dollars in gold and accrue some revenue but it’s really not that great an investment. Except as a hedge……..
 
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