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Castlemom

· Fortes Fortuna Juvat
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This probably isn't going to be the most popular post, with so many short-timing our world as we know it.....and most figuring on Oil being the catalyst for SHTF sooner than later......but consider what this highly respected trader says,



The Canadian dollar has broken out of parity with the U.S. dollar -
no big surprise there - thanks to the lunacy surrounding oil
prices. Canada is a net exporter of oil - so, it only makes sense
that the loonie would invariably catch the speculative fever that's
gripping that market. However, I still feel that the Canadian
currency is more closely linked to the prospects for the U.S.
economy than oil.

I also think that we are witnessing just another bubble - this time
oil being the beneficiary of the dumb money speculators, who must
be running out of things to gamble on. First, they drove the stock
market thought the roof (only to collapse), and then they did it to
housing. I'm surprised any of them still have any money left. I
guess we'll eventually have another tulip craze just to satisfy
their appetite for risk.

High oil prices are a drag on the global economy. Economies like
Canada's are very much exposed to the potential for further
deterioration, and that factor alone will invariably weigh heavily
on the loonie. I don't honestly think smart money traders believe
high oil prices are here to stay.

High oil prices are exacerbating the problem already caused by the
faltering housing market in the U.S. and the poor outlook for jobs.
Virtually every sector in Canada has been hit really hard by the
economic downturn. After all, Canada is the tail on the American
dog, and is very much influenced by what happens south of the 49.



--Peter
forexmentor


*******maybe we are in for some relief ? ********
 
It's possible, however I think oil prices will continue to rise drastically as the oil companies have now realized that people are going to buy it because they have to... no matter how much it costs. The minor downturn of people cutting down on gas usage is nothing compared to the profits they are making at $4+ a gallon.

Anyway this is a respone to the ..."maybe we are in for some relief" part.
 
I don't think we are quite ready for a crash up or down yet, but things will definitely start progressively getting hairier one way or the other. The price will probably stabilize at the top of the bell curve (or whatever it is called)- you know, where the increase in price and the decrease in sales allow for the maximum overall profit. I think many people are SHOCKED that there has yet to be a significant decrease in consumption, so it will rise until the downturn is significant enough to affect the bottom line.

Contrary to popular belief- oil companies DO NOT set the price of oil- the idiots on the commodities market do. However, being a lover of conspiracy theories, I wouldn't be surprised if there is some man behind the curtain somewhere.
 
I wish it was so

Gas hit $4.22 a gallon here on Friday, ouch.

I don't see any relief on the horizon to induce a substantial drop in fuel prices.

While there are some possibilities, they are not very probable. Speculation is a part of the equation, but so is running out of cheap and easy oil supplies. I suppose it is always possible that we could discover another Saudi sized oil field under the ice, but it is not likely. In a few years we will need to be discovering a North Sea sized oil field every year to keep up, where could those fields be found that has not already been explored. Expanding refineries to use something other than light sweet crude would help with the refining bottle neck, but basic supply will continue to be growing problem.

It seems more likely that it is wishful thinking to say it is a bubble and will all go away. I am not saying the price could not drop somewhat, but nothing like what I hear from some dreamers, like back to the good old days of 2 dollar or under gas. My opinion.

I am glad the Canadian Loonie is doing well, the Canadians deserve a break. They are sure doing their part to keep us in oil, their our number one source for the stuff. We have not treated Canada very fairly on the pulp wood issue, so maybe the run up of their dollar will help some of those hurt by that bad deal to get more bang for the Canadian buck..
 
I guarantee you that it won't take $10 or even $8 per gallon gas to result in large numbers of personal and business bankruptcies, spiking unemployment, surging R. E. foreclosures both commercial and residential, outragous food prices, surging price increases across the board on all consummer goods and services, etc.

It is said that a $200 per barrel Oil price equates to $7 per gallon gas.

Well $ 135 Oil is giving the US $4 per gallon right now and just listen to the real effects of that price. At a 1:34 ratio of gas at the pump price to Oil per barrel price, $6 a gallon gas would equate to a $ 200 per barrel Oil price.

Well never mind, what becomes the real issue is how high of a price per gallon before the " Desposable Dollar " supply shrinks so low that the US Domestic economy can no longer be sustain adequately. We are NOT talking ANY Growth, just continued function with continuing NO LOSS ????

IMHO $6 + per gallon !!!!

comments ?
 
Yeah but I'm Really starting to get scared!

Energy is one of the lynch pins of modern society. With out it we will soon find our selves flat on our collective faces. I now feel that the clock is winding down on yet another great depression that our grand parents and great grand parents endured. My gut feeling though is this one going to get much worse than the one in the text books. Their are more people to feed cloth, and house. They haven't many of the skills and the mindset that their grand parents did to make it through such hard times. To many are sticking their heads in the sand on this one. The president, and congress have said or done little. Both have agendas that are not in the contries best intrests. Their are already a good number of news articals stating that gas will be $12 to $15 a gallon by this time next year.

I think the ripple effect is going to be tremendous folks and were going to be in for one hell of a bumpy ride!

Rifleman 336
 
I hear there is a bill in congress to sue OPEC for not increasing production to ease gas prices. I'm embarrassed by a lot of the stuff our government pulls, but this takes the cake. They should be hard at work developing infrastructure for alternative energy(takes 15-20 years), rather than this crap. Once the Ghuar field starts declining,SHTF will be well upon us.A 5% production decline in the 70's caused a quadrupling in oil prices.Its quite unlikely they can increase production anyway. Even if they could, it is not wise. The more you overwork a field,the quicker it dies. Not linear,exponentially. Up until last quarter 2007 Wall Street and our Government agencies were predicting a return to $40,50,60/barrel oil. We will never see that again. We will unlikely see sub-$100 oil(barring a depression).:mad::(
 
There is no substance in that article / post, surrounding the conjecture on Canada or the re-positioning of the price of oil. Whether its going to happen or not, I don't buy that fellows argument, because it isn't supported.
 
great......i am all for a return to cheap oil and gasoline and will enjoy consuming every drop, 'however' since the trend has been tword higher and higher prices most if not all the nation have been cought with their pants down stuck with huge vehicles bought for $30,000 to $40,0000 getting misrable mileage....i never have liked to buy gasoline it sucks resorces i would rather spend somewere else...but since over the years gasoline keeps going higher i will continue to prep in that direction,it is this mindset that has enabled us to ''weather'' the high fuel prices right now and beyound current price increases should they continue along with the inflation it brings............
 
It usually takes 45 days for oil prices to trickle down into gas prices, so we still haven't felt to full effects yet.

Oil should be getting close to topping out :rolleyes:

The bigger problem is hurricane season and the effect it will have in the short term.
 
as gas and all that is associated with it (transportation,plastics,food, in sort everything), it is the resulting inflation that is the biggest problem. as inflation reduces the disposable income of an economy which is 2/3 powered by consumers less can be bought - as less is bought, more companies cut back - in salaries first further dropping consumer spending. this will further spiral into more of the same -- until such time as there is not enough available cash or credit to maintain a national economy or a govt eaten up by debt, and rising social services costs due to unemployment and reduced tax revenues.

the only hope is that smaller communities can pull together and survive with no functioning govt, for state and local govts will also die due to lack of funding.

this i assume will happen winter 2009 or summer 2010,after an accumulated inflation of 20-30% we will have 12% by end of this year.
barring a catastrophe in the mideast or a major terrorist strike in the US
 
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Discussion starter · #12 ·
as gas and all that is associated with it (transportation,plastics,food, in sort everything), it is the resulting inflation that is the biggest problem. as inflation reduces the disposable income of an economy which is 2/3 powered by consumers less can be bought - as less is bought, more companies cut back - in salaries first further dropping consumer spending. this will further spiral into more of the same -- until such time as there is not enough available cash or credit to maintain a national economy or a govt eaten up by debt, and rising social services costs due to unemployment and reduced tax revenues.

the only hope is that smaller communities can pull together and survive with no functioning govt, for state and local govts will also die due to lack of funding.

this i assume will happen winter 2009 or summer 2010,after an accumulated inflation of 20-30% we will have 12% by end of this year.
barring a catastrophe in the mideast or a major terrorist strike in the US

That is why the ECB (European Common Bank)is working really hard with the FRB (Federal Reserve Board) because they know the EU will go down with the ship if they don't help us to stabilize....

Is it too little too late? And even if it help --some--it will only be a delay tactic because China is working so hard to utterly destroy us.





P.S. I posted this thread ONLY to spark some talk regarding a view I had not seen. It is not my position ....

.
 
I hear there is a bill in congress to sue OPEC for not increasing production to ease gas prices. I'm embarrassed by a lot of the stuff our government pulls, but this takes the cake.
Yup, that's about as stupid and childish as it gets. That's what happens when you have a nation run by lawyers who grew up in a nation populated by wimps who need to settle every tiny piddling little bother in court.
I'm waiting for OPEC to get served and respond by pulling out of the US altogether.
China and India will be more than happy to buy cheap and sell dear.
 
IMO, today's oil price includes a $20-30/barrel premium for speculation. Speculation that is based on perception that oil price will never stop rising. At this point it does not matter how much oil is in the ground, in the tankers, or in storage. All that matters is that traders believe what they believe, and that is why oil and other stuff is priced the way it's priced. Anyone who followed the markets for any period of time knows that 95% of the time markets are in panic. It's either panic buying or panic selling, everyone is running in the same direction, does not matter what that direction is. It is also remarkable that the more opinions you hear that are alike ("real estate will always appreciate", "oil will never be cheaper") the more likely that trend is to reverse. It has happened before, regardless of what area of human activity, be it financial markets, job markets, or social trends. So the more I hear things like "oil will be at 200 by September" and "Civilization will burn in the summer of 2010" the less likely it is to happen.
 
long read but intrestingly informative

AP IMPACT: What makes up the price of gas?

Saturday May 24, 10:46 AM EDT

Consider the game of chicken that plays out every day across Pennsylvania State Highway 441. In Marietta, where the road hugs the Susquehanna River, a Rutter's Farm Store gas station stands on one side, a Sheetz gas station on the other.

Kelly Bosley, who manages Rutter's, doesn't even have to look across the highway to know when Sheetz changes its price for a gallon of gas. When Sheetz raises prices, her own pumps are busy. When Sheetz lowers prices, she has not a car in sight.

She calls Rutter's headquarters to report the competition's new price and wait for instructions.

"I call a lot of times and say, 'They went down, hurry up! Hurry up! Call me! Call me!' Or it could be where theirs goes up, and I'll say, 'Take your time! You know, I like being busy.' But I have no control over that."



You think you feel helpless at the pump?

Bosley makes a living selling gas — and even she has little control over what it costs.

So how exactly are gas prices set? What determines the hair-pulling figure you see displayed in large electronic or plastic numbers? Why is a gallon of gas, say, $4.11 — not $4.10 or $4.12? Why is the price different across the street?

It all starts with oil.

The biggest factor in the skyrocketing price of gasoline is the historic ascent of crude oil, which has surged from $45 per barrel in 2004 to more than $135 this past week, setting new record highs all the while.

In the first quarter of this year, based on a retail price of gas that now seems like a steal — $3.11 a gallon — crude oil accounted for all but about a dollar, or 70 percent, of the cost, according to the federal government.

The rest is a complex mix of factors, from the cost of turning oil into gas to taxes to marketing costs to, sometimes, nothing more than the competitive whims of your local gas station owner.

Not that understanding the breakdown makes it any less cringe-inducing to fill 'er up.

———

First a primer on how gas gets to your tank:

Once oil is pumped from the ground, it can be sold on the spot market, a last-minute trading arena where oil companies and distributors buy and sell to each other, or straight to refiners. After it's brewed into gasoline, the product can again be sold on the spot market, or directly to wholesalers, who in turn can supply their own stations or sell it to other retailers.

Each step of the way, buyers and sellers negotiate a price until, finally, drivers pay the ultimate tab at the pump.

At the starting point of all this is the price of oil — which, like the oil itself, is nothing if not crude.

The knee-jerk villains are the oil companies, fat with multibillion-dollar profits, frequent targets of populist anger. But wait: The oil companies don't set the price of oil or the cost of a gallon of gas.

Prices are a function of the open market, the result of futures contracts being traded on the New York Mercantile Exchange, or Nymex, and other exchanges around the world.

Buying the current July crude oil futures contract means you're buying oil that will be delivered by the end of July. But most investors who trade futures have no intention of ever accepting the underlying oil: Like stock investors who frequently buy and sell their holdings, they're simply betting that prices will rise or fall.

Of late, on the Nymex, oil futures have been rising.

Why? Blame the falling dollar. Oil is priced in U.S. dollars, and the weaker the dollar gets, the more attractive dollar-denominated oil contracts are to foreign investors — or any investor looking for a safe haven in the turbulent stock market.

The rush of buyers keeps pushing oil futures to a series of new records, and the rest of the energy complex, including gasoline futures, has followed. That pushes up the price of gas that goes into your tank.

"Crude is the driver," said Jim Ritterbusch, president of energy consultancy Ritterbusch and Associates in Galena, Ill. "As long as it stays up there, gasoline's not going to be able to decline much at all, even if demand slips. That's just the way it is."

There is some evidence Americans are buying less gas as the price marches higher, and common sense suggests they would cut back even more if gas rose to $4.50 or $5 a gallon.

Lower demand should mean lower prices — but it takes time for that to happen, given the enormous scale of refining operations that produce gasoline.

"Once demand begins to slow, that needs to translate into inventories, then you get some price weakening," Ritterbusch said. "But it takes a while."

Oil and gasoline prices often move in the same direction, but they aren't linked directly. In fact, while oil prices have more than doubled in the past year, gasoline is only up about 19 percent during the same time.

Oil prices often fluctuate with production decisions from the Organization of Petroleum Exporting Countries, which supplies about 40 percent of the world's crude, or when conflict in the Middle East or *****ia threatens supplies.

For example, oil prices rose $2.46 in one day last month amid reports a ship under contract to the Defense Department fired warning shots at two boats in the Persian Gulf that may have been Iranian.

A Navy spokesman later said the origin of the boats was unclear, but the news raised concerns that a conflict between U.S. and Iranian forces could cut oil supplies from the region. That same day, gas prices rose another 2.1 cents to a then-record national average of $3.577 a gallon on other supply concerns.

And the rise has only grown more dramatic. Oil sprinted higher this past week, rising more than $4 a barrel on Wednesday alone and past $135 on Thursday.

As for gasoline prices: They're closely tied to demand from U.S. drivers and how efficiently refineries are operating. Falling production or inventories often send prices skyrocketing.

Those prices can vary greatly depending on the region.

The Gulf Coast is the source of about half the gasoline produced in the United States, and areas farthest from there tend to have higher prices because of the cost of shipping gas via pipeline and tanker truck all over the country.

Some of those places, like California and New York, also have higher local taxes that push the price higher.

Oil companies may not set the price of oil and gasoline, but not everyone is willing to sit back and let them claim to be innocent bystanders.

In particular, for the second time this year, Big Oil's biggest executives were on Capitol Hill in recent days getting pummeled by many in Congress for their record profits while Americans struggle with record fuel prices.

"Where is the corporate conscience?" Sen. **** Durbin, D-Ill., asked the top executives of the five largest U.S. oil companies.

———

Soaring gas prices have led to cries for a variety of answers, from Hillary Rodham Clinton and John McCain's suggestion to suspend the federal gas tax this summer to President Bush's call to open the Arctic National Wildlife Refuge in Alaska and some offshore waters that are now off limits to oil development.

Others have suggested a windfall profits tax on oil companies, although some economists say that might actually hurt supply. Oil companies say they're not to blame for spiking fuel prices, and their earnings, measured against revenue, are in line with other industries.

On top of that, rising oil prices have sharply cut profit margins for refining, and that hits the major oil companies — which both pump oil and refine it for use as gasoline.

A giant like Exxon Mobil can handle the blow. Its refining and marketing profits for the first quarter were down 39 percent from a year ago, but Exxon still banked a nearly $11 billion profit because of the hefty prices earned on crude it pumped out of the ground.

Smaller refiners aren't so fortunate. Sunoco Inc.'s refining and supply business lost $123 million in the first quarter, hurt by lower margins. Tesoro Corp. lost $82 million for the same period.

In any case, huge profits at big oil companies like Exxon Mobil and Chevron aren't because of high prices at the pump. Their massive profits are tied to their exploration and production arms, which are benefiting from record crude prices.

Higher crude costs also have squeezed profits at the refining arms of companies like ConocoPhillips, which don't produce enough crude themselves to refine at full capacity without buying more oil from other producers.

CEO Jim Mulva said ConocoPhillips, the second-largest U.S. refiner behind Valero Energy Corp., buys about 2 million barrels of crude a day at market prices to refine into gasoline and other products.

"If oil costs us $30 a barrel or $40 a barrel or $120 a barrel, that's why the cost of gasoline is what it is," he said. "It's not because of taxes. It's not because of ... refining and distribution. It's because of the cost of oil."

———

But it's not only about the price of oil. Other costs are a factor — though they've remained relatively stable.

For example, federal and state taxes added 40 cents to a gallon of gas in the first three months of this year, roughly the same amount as they added four years ago.

California's 63.9 cents of tax is the nation's highest, Alaska's 26.4 cents the lowest. How the money is used varies from state to state, though the federal take helps to build and maintain highways and bridges.

Marketing and distribution costs — the tab for delivering gasoline from refiner to retailer — were 27 cents to start the year, only 6 cents above the cost four years ago.

The cost of refining added 27 cents to a gallon in the first quarter of this year, a nickel less than what it added in 2004, according to the Energy Information Administration.

That refining occurs at sprawling industrial complexes across the U.S., with most of the biggest along the Gulf Coast. Barrels of crude arrive each day by pipeline, ship and barge. The refineries, by heating, treating and blending the raw oil, turn out products like diesel and lubricating oil.

And, of course, gasoline.

———

What happens when that gasoline makes its way to your neighborhood gas station?

Major oil companies own fewer than 5 percent of gas stations. Most are owned by small retailers — and many of them say they're struggling these days to turn a profit on gas. That's because wholesale gasoline prices have risen sharply in recent months — again, blame it on crude — but station owners have been unable to raise pump prices fast enough to keep pace.

And you can't keep jacking up the price when drivers are buying less.

Gas station owners face a balancing act: They must try to maintain a price that allows them to afford the next shipment of gasoline but not give the competition an edge.

Stations pay tens of thousands of dollars for each gas shipment before they see a cent in the register. Eventually, many make only a few cents on a gallon of gasoline, a margin that can disappear altogether when credit card fees are added in.

Thank goodness for beef jerky and sodas.

Most gasoline retailers long ago got past any illusion they can make money by selling gas. They rely on gas sales to drive traffic to their shops, where they hope auto repairs or food and drink sales will help them turn a profit.

"You're always out there competing with the guy next door — literally with the guy across the street — and worried too about how you're going to pay for your next supply," said Rayola Dougher, a senior economic adviser at the American Petroleum Institute, the oil industry's trade association.

In the Philadelphia suburb of Havertown, Pa., earlier in the week, Sunoco station operator Steve Kehler received a load of gasoline — 9,000 gallons — which, at a wholesale price of $3.729 a gallon, cost him 4 cents more than the previous load.

That left him in a sticky situation: Should he raise prices right away to recoup some of his higher gasoline expenses, or should he hold off for a couple of days in hopes his competitors will also have to raise their prices?

"I'm surrounded by $3.89's, and I'm already at $3.91," said Kehler, referring to his prices and those of some nearby competitors. "I'm going to play a little waiting game right now."

The $33,600 Kehler must pay for his overnight gasoline delivery won't be debited from his bank account for a few days. That gives him a little breathing room, time to hold prices steady. Hiking prices too quickly will hurt sales.

"I'll probably change it tomorrow night, at closing," Kehler said. "I'll go up 4 cents."

That will put Kehler at a gross margin of about 20 cents a gallon. After paying credit card fees, labor and rent, Kehler will be lucky to break even on his gasoline sales.

But many times, he loses money selling gas. Kehler, like most other service station operators, relies entirely upon his car repair business for income.

Of course, the plight of retailers is little consolation for drivers.

Mayra Perez said she works two fast-food jobs to help support her family, and gasoline is becoming harder to afford. She said perhaps the government should step in to help ease the burden, possibly by placing price limits on gasoline.

She was filling the tank of her compact car in Miami this past week to the tune of $3.89 per gallon for regular gas.

"This is horrible," she said. "On the weekend, my husband and I use only one car to save on gas.

"But then there's the cost of food, milk, eggs, the rent."



AP Business Writer Adrian Sainz in Miami contributed to this story.
 
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That is why the ECB (European Common Bank)is working really hard with the FRB (Federal Reserve Board) because they know the EU will go down with the ship if they don't help us to stabilize....

Is it too little too late? And even if it help --some--it will only be a delay tactic because China is working so hard to utterly destroy us.





P.S. I posted this thread ONLY to spark some talk regarding a view I had not seen. It is not my position ....

.
Disagree. We are their mainstay. Superships come over full,leave empty. They do not want to see the world's largest economy collapse. They want to control us.Not destroy us.
 
All commodities are governed to supply and demand price pressure. Even the currencies we use to purchase these things. When you have a Fiat Economy as most of the Leading world currecies are, The value of what your currency is based almost solely on is good faith of the country that issues it..........
Unfortunately for us right at this juncture in time the rest of world feels are money isn't worth the paper its printed on, and for the most part i agree.
We've experienced a Bubble in the value in US currency were on the down side of the bubble its collapsing. The real Bad thing here is were getting hit in the US economy with many things all at once and the people in the country at large have been encouraged to over spend via cheap credit with little regulation if not utter abandon to the consequences of over borrowing.
Oil and energy here is still a good deal for consumers compare it to your other developed country versus there average median income and you'll be surprised........
 
Discussion starter · #18 ·
They want to control us.Not destroy us.

IMHO, they are the same thing.




I have heard it said, and do not wholly disagree that, "Our invaders from the south and far east will happily consume after we W.E.D.'s are decimated".

W.E.D. = White European decent

The bottom line is we and our elected officials made every deal, signed away every lost right and were complaisantly lazy. And now we are about to reap what we have sewn here in our own nation as well as from every corner of the globe.
 
I'm glad I live in a trailer park. We would probally all protect eachother and stuff like that cause Ive been here for 5 years and have some strong bonds. It would take something like the military coming in and wanting to take over for me to move to another area.
 
I would have no problems with the government wanting something of mine, I'm not gonna "resist" over something like that. I would be pro-government in a situation like a nuclear war, oil crisis, natural disaster etc. I would only be hostile if It came down to protecting the lives of my family members against a criminal.
 
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