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Thread: The most simple firearm? Reply to Thread
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Topic Review (Newest First)
07-06-2019 12:03 PM
Bishopj The problem is when you limit your self to being proficient with just one weapon you will fail sooner than later learning how to make weapons and how to Master all that you come across is a survival skills in it's self a easy cheap gun can be made by down scaling a potato gun to 1/2 inch pvc pipe is it the best gun no will it work in a jam yes would I want a single shot 22 with a 5gal bucket of 22 ammo yes will I have it most likely no can I make a bow yes can I make arrows yes can i make a atlatl and darts yes can i make a David sling yes A sling shot a spear a knife a Panna bolas rabbit stick if you have never been through a advanced SERE school this is what you learn weapons of opportunities the weapons you have may not be the best but it may be all that you have at the time until you can pick up something better.
07-05-2019 08:18 PM
duanet Not bore ignition, but either a Greening type shotgun with brass shells, or a Handi rifle with a Lee loader and molds for the caliber would allow you to use black powder, cast lead bullets and for not much money, 10,000 primers that should last a life time. Low pressures, fired from the same weapon, and no case sizing would allow many reloads of a single cartridge and if you use 30-30, 308, or other common cartridge, should be able to stockpile a few hundred cases for pennies each. Often free at ranges, size once and use in your weapon from then on.
02-08-2019 09:50 PM
Jerry D Young I do not think anything small enough and flexible enough to go inside the assembly would be strong enough to withstand the heat, flame, and sudden acceleration of the bullet and pull a case from the barrel.

Even metal wire, unless fairly heavy gage would be doubtful. It would need to be insulated to keep from shorting out, and the insulation would burn away, creating many problems. Plus, I am not sure how it could be fastened to the cartridge case in a way that would be strong enough to withstand the forces of firing.

Instead of a 9v battery, you might consider using a piezo sparker. It would not need any batteries. A simple trigger release of a spring powered hammer unit to strike the crystal would work. Which is exactly what the starters for lamps and stoves are, already self-contained.

If two pins are mounted in the base of the inner tube of the barrel, that would puncture a paper cartridge, a charge could be used to fire the black powder. I am not 100% sure if the piezo striker would have enough energy to short through very much powder. It might require a battery.

Another option is to use a nichrome wire or strip igniter, such as those used with model rocket engines, or salvaged from old toasters. Attached to the base of the paper cartridge, and the internal contacts of the barrel being an almost full semi-circle, so there would always be contact between them and the nichrome wire or strip, the weapon could be fire electrically. If I remember back to my old rocket days, I think it required 12 volts, but that was often simply 8 D-cell batteries in a holder with safety interlock and firing button.

With modern batteries I think that could be done with AAA or AA batteries.

Definitely some possibilities.


Just my opinion.
02-04-2019 09:54 PM
Corpus
The most simple firearm?

Quote:
Originally Posted by judyt00 View Post
pretty sure a couple sharp rocks and a sling shot would be as effective


Considering your post in the “Mexico Texas border barricade”thread I’m not surprised you don’t know this but if you have a sling and/or slingshot a sharp rock is going to be the worst ammunition you could choose. Ideally you’d want something perfectly round like a ball bearing or marble, failing that a smooth rock is much better than a sharp rock if you actually hope to hit your target.
02-04-2019 09:26 PM
judyt00 pretty sure a couple sharp rocks and a sling shot would be as effective
02-04-2019 09:17 PM
Snyper708
Quote:
Any thoughts?
Why are you trying to reinvent the wheel?
None of these designs will work, and none are any better than current designs.
02-03-2019 03:05 PM
hatchet jack Are you this same guy on TheFiringLine forum?

https://thefiringline.com/forums/sho...d.php?t=600193

I don't fault you for thinking outside the box but you are coming up with dead end designs.

the most simple and usable firearm will most likely always be a matchlock BP gun. Anyone should be able to build one of those with a nitrated cord, homemade powder and a piece of pipe and wood for a stock.
01-12-2019 07:26 PM
Lunes Here’s a few updates on the project

Instead of a fuse I will use electric ignition, the reason why I preferred a fast fuse initially over E-match, is because the time it take to connect wires together., it can be pretty awkward. But I realized that I can use magnets to connect the wires, which will make the wires snap in place by themself. Like this
Here’s the main idea


I also tought that it could be possible, maybe, to use shorter cartridges with the same dimension as the bullet, that could be forced down through a strong magnet instead of a ramrod, like this


Here’s another version with the magnetic wire connection inside the chamber, it will work for barrel-length cartridges atleast.


In order to extract the case, either you have to pull the wires out if they are connected to the cartridge, or have another string connected to the cartridge.

Maybe a spring can be used to eject the cartridge automatically, as an ejector, like this


Or a string connected to the projectile/sabot, like this


With sabot (when the sabot pushes the cartridge out, the projectile just contuneing forward, they are’nt attached together.



How long does that strong and thin string, made of fishing line or similar, need to be? The pressure has to leave the chamber and bore before the string can push the cartridge out..

A combustible cartridge could also be used instead, maybe.

Any thoughts? I doubt if it still can be considered ”the most simple firearm” though.
01-03-2019 11:15 AM
Observer Yawn.......again. It would be what the Bible called a sling!
01-01-2019 05:59 PM
Snyper708
Quote:
Originally Posted by randkl View Post
That's the prob. Long term. It takes a long time to become as good with a bow as a pure beginner can be with the simplest of firearms. While good arrows may become rarer than hen's teeth, the parts of a simple firearm never will. Right now in your own home, you have the makings of a couple of dozen useable firearms. Not so for a bow and arrow.

Welcome to the forum, sir!
Not if you're talking about the OP's "firearm"
The parts for making bows and arrows grow on trees.
01-01-2019 09:20 AM
justin22885 instead of the lighter?.. why not have a couple electrodes in the chamber that are powered by a piezo which gets struck by a hammer you could cock like a normal pistol?
11-28-2018 11:30 AM
lasers Assuming no modern chemicals or primers the most simple gun that would be relatively reliable would be a matchlock. I have a flintlock and usually it fires instantly, on occasion it will have maybe a split second hang fire that feels like an eternity when you are trying to hold your aim and figure out what happened and waiting for it to explode in your face. When there is a hang fire I can't come near to hitting the target.

Using a fuse to get ignition through the touch hole and into the powder would take much longer than a split second my gun takes when there is a problem.

With a matchlock, or any muzzelloader, if you want to make loading faster you can make paper cartridges with p remeasured powder and a ball. You can tear the paper open, dump in the powder then ram the ball down the barrel using the paper as a patch . Or load the entire paper cartridge and prick it through the touch hole to make a hole in the paper(this method leaves a much higher chance of embers in the barrel and since you are putting the powder and ball in together if that happens you will end up shooting your hand when trying to tamp it down with the ramrod if there are still embers in the barrel). Paper cartridges can also be soaked in various chemicals to make them burn quicker to make the chance of embers remaining less.
11-17-2018 02:17 AM
The Old Coach It may be fun to speculate, but I'm remembering the men started working on this problem centuries ago.

If there were anything simpler than what's already in the history books, it would be in the history books.
11-13-2018 09:19 PM
Jerry D Young I believe that in this version the cartridges are premade, with the fuse in place in the cartridge. There would be no need to replace any fuses when the weapon is in use.

When the cartridges are reloaded after being used would be when fuses are added. Just as when a primer is placed in a modern metallic cartridge.

Just my opinion.
11-13-2018 09:12 PM
IntroC The whole idea of the “fuse” is what is killing this idea. Anything with a fuse is not gonna be fast. They malfunction miserably. Every time you shoot replacing the fuse will not be a “fast” endeavor.
11-10-2018 01:18 AM
Jerry D Young
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lunes View Post
A new version has been made, this is my idea https://ibb.co/dfaecq

This gun should be able to have a fire rate about 1 or 2 shot/second, it’s made by three parts, and no moving parts/mechanism is involved.

1. Receiver, made from a steel pipe that’s bend to form the handle
2. The main barrel, made from thicker steel
3. The cartridge, inserted in the main barrel and fired.

To make it easier to operate and shoot fast, the cartridges can be attached together, with space between each cartridge, and a handle. In out, in out, very fast. And the fire source can be kept alive, for maximum fire rate.
I would be sure and have the handle of the cartridge block be attached in a way that when the cartridge slides into the barrel, it will put the hand under the receiver so there is no way at all for the hand to wind up anywhere near the muzzle when the cartridge seats, especially if using a constant flame from the lighter.

Might even have it at an angle, or add a bend to it to act somewhat like a verticle foregrip. That would all depend on length and overall design. Even just a horizontal grip that comes back under the receiver/barrel would work, of course. Probably better than a vertical one.


The muzzle of the barrel should also be designed as a blunderbuss, or similar, so that it support the the cartridge to be inserted into the chamber.
I would not use too much flare on it. You want the cartridge supported as much as possible all the way out.

If the cartridge is formed so the rear end is relieved slightly, as shown in the illustration as the curve at the edges of the cartridge, you will not need much flare in the barrel with that rounded edge bottom of the cartridge. Depending on how the cartridges are made, you could do a slight chamfer if that would be easier.


What do you think? Will the steel receiver at the back with the vent hole design, cause problem?
I believe you will need an air inlet port at the bottom of the receiver handle, depending on how much clearance there is for the lighter push button. Better to have it anyway, I think.

Also, I think I would use a series of smaller holes in the top vent rather than a single, too. You simply need some air flow so the lighter and fuse can burn. You do not want anything to fall into the hole. Good airflow will be critical for the lighter flame to be as hot as possible. You want plenty of air available for combustion.


Another issue is the fuse. The fuse will be fast burning, maybe 10mm long, and about 3mm thick. It will have a thin steel wire, so that i will be stable and not bend. Will the fuse hole of the barrel be filled with residue, or will that residue shoot out and get inside the receiver instead?
A residue will eventually build up, I believe. But it might take several rounds before it does, depending on several factors.

How clean the power is being a primary one. Another will be how powerful the specific FFFg power is. Powerful stuff will tend to blow any residue faster and hotter past the wire into the receiver handle. Less might have a tendency to allow it to build up more quickly. And of course the thickness of the wire in relation to the fuse hole.

The type of steel can have an affect, too. A 'slicker' stainless steel would accumulate less material. Or perhaps a chrome plating, though that sound outside the parameters of the design.

If it is possible, adding a small nipple in each cartridge which projects through the fuse hole, flush with the inside of the bottom of the barrel with a millimeter of fuse projecting, would eliminate any build up, I believe. Again, not sure of the production parameters would allow that. But it would greatly help the overall performance, I believe.

Especially in terms of getting the fuse through the fuse hole in the bottom of the barrel. And it would help prevent bending of the fuse during carry, as only a millimeter would project, rather than the amount necessary to go through the barrel fuse hole, and enough inside the receiver to take the flame, and even if bent slightly, it is probable that the nipple would go through and still expose the fuse at the very end of it, even without much projection. Not even sure if it would need to project.

If the fuse was flush with the outside bottom of the barrel, with a good hot flame directed over it or at it, I think it would ignite. Only experimentation would tell.


How thick do muzzle loader vent holes use to be?
Essentially they were the thickness of the barrel at the breech end. Pretty long, comparatively speaking. And later on, with cap ignition, there was the length of the nipple plus the thickness of the breech end of the barrel, with a right angle turn adding to the length the primer flame had to travel.

I believe i will make the barrel .50, but the cartridge will take a .44 ball. It aill be loaded with 20-30 grains of FFFG black powder.
The drawings nor text indicate any, but will you be using over powder wads and over bullet wads? Or some other system?
You have improved the design greatly. I look forward to hearing how things go. Just be very, very careful. Definitely start with very light loads. And single flame ignition, not constant flame, for safety.

Just my opinion.
11-09-2018 02:52 PM
Lunes A new version has been made, this is my idea https://ibb.co/dfaecq

This gun should be able to have a fire rate about 1 or 2 shot/second, it’s made by three parts, and no moving parts/mechanism is involved.

1. Receiver, made from a steel pipe that’s bend to form the handle
2. The main barrel, made from thicker steel
3. The cartridge, inserted in the main barrel and fired.

To make it easier to operate and shoot fast, the cartridges can be attached together, with space between each cartridge, and a handle. In out, in out, very fast. And the fire source can be kept alive, for maximum fire rate.

The muzzle of the barrel should also be designed as a blunderbuss, or similar, so that it support the the cartridge to be inserted into the chamber.

What do you think? Will the steel receiver at the back with the vent hole design, cause problem? Another issue is the fuse. The fuse will be fast burning, maybe 10mm long, and about 3mm thick. It will have a thin steel wire, so that i will be stable and not bend. Will the fuse hole of the barrel be filled with residue, or will that residue shoot out and get inside the receiver instead?

How thick do muzzle loader vent holes use to be? I believe i will make the barrel .50, but the cartridge will take a .44 ball. It aill be loaded with 20-30 grains of FFFG black powder.
12-11-2017 07:30 AM
sixtus
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sweeper80 View Post
A breech loading single shot shotgun can be had for $100 at any Wal Mart in the country.

Barrel adapters can be had, in about every caliber, for $50 a piece.

So you can build the most simple and indestructible rifle/shotgun set up imagineable for $150, brand spanking new.
As long as you don't mind shotgun slug accuracy with the rifle adaptors...they are versatile sure, but not great shooters.
12-09-2017 03:05 PM
Sweeper80 A breech loading single shot shotgun can be had for $100 at any Wal Mart in the country.

Barrel adapters can be had, in about every caliber, for $50 a piece.

So you can build the most simple and indestructible rifle/shotgun set up imagineable for $150, brand spanking new.
12-09-2017 01:36 PM
fragout
Quote:
Originally Posted by goon View Post
I can't fault anyone for their ingenuity. I'd say pick up a copy of the US army improvised munitions handbook and check out some of the really simple designs they have there. Drilling a vent could indicate you have a firearm, but guns have been disguised as pens, belt buckles, canes, tools, and almost everything else. Also, if you're caught with a pipe and homemade cartridges, the cartridges themselves will give you away.

I agree with everyone else to have some real guns. But as long as you're safe and stick to the rules to stay out of prison, go ahead and experiment. I still have a .22 barrel stub I want to build a single shot out of (but it's seriously trashed).
Agreed.
While it might be simple to build .......it is not simple or fast to operate compared to a semiauto rifle. Either is archery.

Im a big proponent of having enough ammo in multiple locations .Redundant systems ( including " spare" rifles) that are not co located.)

History has also shown where cache programs via the 1930s did there job well into this decade.

In short, we buy it in bulk ( pallets) .... and don't keep all the eggs in one basket.

Note: 1 pallet of RIM1 ball is over 40000 rds. ( And 7.62x51mm pails in comparison to 22lr stocked by our " group".) Ammo is already shipped in it's own cache container.

Fabricating one quarter of that number in usable arrows or trying to match 40k via reloading uses up far more time than its worth in my case.

For the purposes of survival, efforts involving fishing/ trapping/ gathering/ raising crops and livestock are a few examples of time better spent imo.
The primary purpose for modern firearms here = security and hunting at distances where other weapons mentioned here would not be very effective or consistent at.

11B
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