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Topic Review (Newest First)
06-21-2019 10:07 AM
esheldon
Quote:
Originally Posted by Trogshak View Post
Why do you say personally “no” to the guidance which you say the Lord gave us? You hold us Catholics to your strict application of Jesus’ words, yet you don’t apply the same standard to yourself.
Because I did not create a man-made institution ("the church") and require people to pray how I want them to pray.

I, you, anyone can pray to God in any manner you wish...but I, you, or anyone cannot REQUIRE "everyone" else to do it (like the "church" does).

However, the Lord told us HOW we are to pray...and He did not mention Mary!

Quote:
Point to a Catholic Church ruling which states this dogma.

Again, point to a Catholic Church ruling which “REQUIRES IT” for penance.
I guess you have never been told by priest during confession to say x-amount of our Father's and hail Mary's???

Quote:
Where in Scripture does it state not to pray to Mary?
No no...you don't get to do that...you show me WHERE it says we ARE to pray to her.

Scripture says we will call her blessed, and guess WHAT, she is blessed. But that in NO WAY "implies" we are to pray to her.
06-21-2019 08:21 AM
Trogshak
Quote:
Originally Posted by esheldon View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Trogshak
Is all prayer is restricted to the Lord's Prayer?
Personally I say no...but the Lord gave us HIS guidance on HOW to pray.
Why do you say personally “no” to the guidance which you say the Lord gave us? You hold us Catholics to your strict application of Jesus’ words, yet you don’t apply the same standard to yourself.

Quote:
Originally Posted by esheldon View Post
However, the "church" MADE IT church dogma to pray to Mary.
Point to a Catholic Church ruling which states this dogma.

Quote:
Originally Posted by esheldon View Post
The "church" even REQUIRES IT for penance!!!
Again, point to a Catholic Church ruling which “REQUIRES IT” for penance.

Quote:
Originally Posted by esheldon View Post
The Lord told us to pray to the Father (especially for forgiveness), not His earthly mother.
Where in Scripture does it state not to pray to Mary?
06-21-2019 07:35 AM
esheldon
Quote:
Originally Posted by Trogshak View Post
What would you have me read ... again?
Never mind, point is mute now.


Quote:
Hey, you necrophiliacs gotta get off somehow.
Dry heave

Quote:
Is all prayer is restricted to the Lord's Prayer?
Personally I say no...but the Lord gave us HIS guidance on HOW to pray.
However, the "church" MADE IT church dogma to pray to Mary.

The "church" even REQUIRES IT for penance!!!

The Lord told us to pray to the Father (especially for forgiveness), not His earthly mother.
06-20-2019 08:15 PM
Old fart
Quote:
Originally Posted by Trogshak View Post
What would you have me read ... again?



Hey, you necrophiliacs gotta get off somehow.



Is all prayer is restricted to the Lord's Prayer?

I bet one of the most common prayers is only one word... "Help!" God knows who prayed that prayer, where he/she is, and what is needed... even before the prayer
06-20-2019 04:57 PM
Trogshak
Quote:
Originally Posted by esheldon View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Trogshak
That's odd. I went to my mother on many occasions for things that I wanted. It was amazing the influence she had on my dad. Your family life must have been different.
Same here, but of course you didn't perform any critical reading...read again.
What would you have me read ... again?

Quote:
Originally Posted by esheldon View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Trogshak
Uh ... I'm not comfortable discussing your mother on this particular point.
Let's not get on the subject of mother's because I just got off yours
Hey, you necrophiliacs gotta get off somehow.

Quote:
Originally Posted by esheldon View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Trogshak
Where in Scripture does it state that we are ONLY to pray to God?
Matthew 6:9 You, therefore, pray like this:

And you show me where it says to pray to anyone else.
Is all prayer is restricted to the Lord's Prayer?
06-18-2019 09:07 AM
esheldon
Quote:
Originally Posted by Watchingtheweasels View Post
Don't bear false witness. Anyone who reads my original post can see the citation from Esther. So you now have two clear cut examples of Biblical citations from Esther and from the resurrection of Jesus where 3 days and 3 nights were defined as partial days, not the full 24 hour period you insist on to invent your false error.
A little something I wrote a while back concerning this subject:

Quote:
Originally Posted by esheldon View Post

My sticking point is...for HIM to die and be buried on Friday and rise on Sunday is not three days three nights. Allow me to illustrate your explanation:

FRIDAY: Thursday sundown (buried) to Friday sundown (one day)
SATURDAY: Friday sundown to Saturday sundown (two days)
SUNDAY: Saturday sundown, HE rose

If, as you say, HE was buried on Friday and rose early Sunday, then HE rose almost 24 hours too early. He would have to be in the earth the entire day Sunday and then rise at sundown on Sunday, which would actually be Monday, in order to be three days.

Matthew 12:40 For just as Yonah was three days and three nights in the belly of the sea-monster, so will the Son of Man be three days and three nights in the depths of the earth.

I would be interested to know if the source which told you HE was buried on a Friday in 30 AD was Gregorian in nature, versus using the Hebrew calendar. Also, I am under the understanding He died and was buried in 31 AD. I could be wrong...but even with your timeline, my explanation below would still fit.

Here is an explanation I gave to someone concerning HIS resurrection a while back, your thoughts:
Below is a quote from which I responded:

Concerning Sunday, all four gospels record that it was on the first day of the week that Christ rose from the grave. We also see two instances of the early Church meeting on the first day of the week. In Acts 20:7 we see the Disciples (believers) gathering on the first day of the week to break bread (they were partaking of Communion, which is part of worship), and in 1Corinthians 16:2 we see the Corinthian believers being advised to take an offering on the first day of the week for believers in need, just as Paul had advised the Galtian believers to do. From this we gather that the early Church was in the habit of meeting on the first day of the week, most likely in observance of the resurrection as well as to worship corporately and fellowship in the breaking of bread. That sounds like having Church to me.
My response to the above quote:

1) (KJV) Acts 20:7 And UPON the first day of the week, when the disciples came together to break bread, Paul preached unto them, ready to depart on the morrow; and continued his speech until midnight.

Notice it says UPON, and not ON the first day of the week, it was approaching...Jewish believers in Yeshua continued meeting at the synagogue (or the Temple, while still there) for Sabbath. Common practice would be havdalah - meeting in homes after sundown on Saturday to continue discussions and praise from the Sabbath, which explains Paul "preaching until midnight" in Acts 20:7. The first day of the week for Jews (like Paul) began at sundown at the end of the Sabbath - Saturday evening - not "Sunday."

2) Resurrection Sunday:

(KJV) Matthew 28:1 In the end of the sabbath, as it began to dawn toward the first day of the week, came Mary Magdalene and the other Mary to see the sepulchre.

We have to remember these were Hebrews and they were well versed in the Torah and the prophets and the "scripture" they referred to back then was Torah! It is important recognize that the "dawning of a new day" according to YHWH is at sunset as it is getting dark; not at first light in the morning. Remember…in, Genesis 1:5 God called the light "day," and the darkness he called "night." And there was evening, and there was morning-the first day. Evening THEN morning.

For a LONG time people have come to not recognize what scripture tells us about when Yeshua was crucified and resurrected because traditional Christianity "long ago" abandoned the annual biblical feast days and the weekly Sabbath. Most people assume Yeshua/Jesus died and was buried on a Friday—thus the traditional belief that Yeshua was crucified and died on "Good Friday."

Most people have no idea that John 19:31 is talking about two different Sabbath days. There is the normal weekly Sabbath day that begins at sunset Friday till sunset Saturday (the seventh day of the week) and then God's seven annual Sabbath days (considered High Sabbath Days) that are listed in Leviticus 23 and mentioned in various passages throughout the Bible. These high Sabbaths can fall on any day of the week, but fall on the same calendar day, in this case Pesach/Passover would ALWAYS be on Nisan 14 (March/April). Just like your birthday, for instance, if it falls on the 2nd, it will always be on the 2nd, but it moves to a different day of the week each year. On today's calendar (2015) HE will actually rise today around sunset (6 Apr / 17 Nisan, before 7 Apr / 18 Nisan).

Sorry, but you cannot get 3 days and 3 nights out of Good Friday crucifixion and easter Sunday resurrection. Either that or Jesus lied when He said He would be in the earth for 3 days and 3 nights.

Most people do not note that John explicitly tells us that the Sabbath that began at sundown immediately after Yeshua was hurried to His tomb was one of these annual Sabbath days. John 19:31 states that "that Sabbath was a high day" —" high day" being a term used to differentiate the seven annual Sabbaths from the regular weekly Sabbath days, per Leviticus 23:37-38, which states, 37 These are the feasts of the Lord, which ye shall proclaim to be holy convocations...38 Beside the sabbaths of the Lord.…

So what was this "high day" that immediately followed Yeshua’s hurried entombment? See below, with *** next to it...

- Passover in 31 AD was on a Wednesday (Nisan 14), the 14th day of the month. Leviticus 23:5 “‘In the first month, on the fourteenth day of the month, between sundown and complete darkness, comes Pesach (Passover) for Adonai.”

- Scripture tell us that on the evening before Yeshua was condemned, tortured, and crucified, He kept the Passover with His disciples (Matthew 26:19-20; Mark 14:16-17; and Luke: 22:13-15). This means He was crucified on the Passover day. Remember, the day begins at sunset...so He ate the Passover meal on Tuesday after sunset, which is actually Wednesday.

- That night after the seder, He was betrayed, arrested, and brought before the high priest. (Matthew 26:47–57) (it is Nisan 14/Wednesday/Passover)

- At 9AM, or the 3rd hour (Mark 15:25), He was crucified. (it is still Nisan 14/Wednesday/Passover)

- At around 3PM, or the 9th hour (Matthew 27:46–50), He died. (it is still Nisan 14/Wednesday/Passover)

- Yeshua's body was placed in the tomb just before sunset (Matthew 27:57–60). (it is still Nisan 14/Wednesday/Passover) ***The reason they were hurrying to get His body in the tomb is because the Passover is also called "the preparation day." For what? For the Feast of Matzah (Unleavened Bread), which is a High Sabbath, that occurs the day after Passover on Nisan 15 (Leviticus 23:6-7).

- He remained in the tomb for 3 night periods and 3 three day periods (Thursday/Friday/Saturday). If He was buried just before sunset, then it stands to reason He rose before sunset on Saturday. That is why when the Mary's hurried to His tomb it was still dark, because the weekly sabbath had just finished. Remember Matthew 28:1 above, In the end of the sabbath, as it began to dawn toward the first day of the week, came Mary Magdalene and the other Mary to see the sepulchre.

The end of the sabbath is on sunset "Saturday", and the first of the week (Sunday) that was about to dawn, occurred AFTER sunset ON Saturday.
06-17-2019 03:40 PM
PeterEnergy
Quote:
Originally Posted by esheldon View Post
I can see what you mean but...I do not believe the was written to imply John never had relations with Mary.
Agreed, assuming you meant the Gospel of John was not written to imply Joseph never had relations with Mary.
06-17-2019 03:38 PM
PeterEnergy
Quote:
Originally Posted by esheldon View Post
The church Friday to Sunday, makes it a half-day Fri, full day Sat, and half-day Sun...which comes out to approx. 2 days.
Frankly, I don't think even that long holds up to scrutiny.

Jesus died at ~3PM and was put in the ground at dusk. Let's say ~6PM. One day later would only be Saturday at 6 PM. 12 hours later, Mary found an empty tomb when she got there before sunrise.

So, the church account only allows 1.5 days, hardly 36 hours; not the 72 hour, 3 day duration stated elsewhere. Yes, the day he was put in was the (beginning of the) 1st day but that is also t = 0.

I reluctantly admit the need for faith but not at the expense of doing what we can. The Bible says, seek and you will find; meaning we have to do what we can. Putting aside tradition, math tells you he died Wednesday and rose at dusk Saturday, ~12 hours before Mary found the tomb empty.

There is a beautiful symmetry of God completing Creation, including rest on the 7th day, with Jesus completing his work, including Resurrection also at the end of the 7th day.
06-17-2019 02:33 PM
esheldon
Quote:
Originally Posted by PeterEnergy View Post
The EOC construe "until" to mean never, despite it never being used that way in any other application. They even provided an EOC link delving into this.

For instance, I will not eat dinner until my wife comes home, does not, in their view, imply that I will ever eat dinner. It only means that I will not eat before this event, for sure, and the "until" adds no more meaning.
I can see what you mean but...I do not believe the was written to imply John never had relations with Mary.
06-17-2019 02:29 PM
esheldon
Quote:
Originally Posted by Watchingtheweasels View Post
Don't bear false witness. Anyone who reads my original post can see the citation from Esther. So you now have two clear cut examples of Biblical citations from Esther and from the resurrection of Jesus where 3 days and 3 nights were defined as partial days, not the full 24 hour period you insist on to invent your false error.
They may have not been exactly 24 hour (60 min) periods back in those days, but they were close enough to being 3 full days and days. However, you cannot get close to 3 days/night like Jonah, with a Friday crucifixion (afternoon) and Sunday resurrection (prior to sunrise). The church Friday to Sunday, makes it a half-day Fri, full day Sat, and half-day Sun...which comes out to approx. 2 days.

AENT Commentary:

When Was the Resurrection? Part I

Inclusive reckoning of the day is scriptural

One of the main strengths of the Wednesday to Saturday argument is that three consecutive 24-hour periods are required before Y’shua can rise. These proponents say, quite rightly, that Western Christianity’s emphasis on a Friday crucifixion and a Sunday resurrection is not only unscriptural, but it goes against Y’shua’s own words: “For as Yonan was in the belly of the fish three days and three nights, likewise will the Son of man be in the heart of the earth three days and three nights” (Matthew 12:38-40).

Three days and three nights cannot be jammed into a period lasting from late Friday afternoon and out of the tomb door on Sunday morning! As implied above, I agree with this assessment. However, these two possibilities are not the only ones out there. It is my belief that the literal truth of Y’shua’s words was followed perfectly, but that doesn’t mean it had to take 72 exact hours for him to rise.

The fact is, the ancients did not even have 60-minute hours as we do, but divided the day into twelve equal parts that varied with the time of year159. Granted, with the day in question being right after the Spring Equinox, this difference between literal and perceived/marked time would have only been a matter of perhaps forty-five minutes, but at least it begins to show that some flexibility of how time was viewed was inherent in the actual system.
Footnote:
159
John 11:9.
The question is, though: Is it really the case that the last few hours before sunset could actually count as a full daylight period when counting towards the Resurrection itself? To find out, we need to look at Tanakh: “You shall make a window (tsohar) for the ark, and finish it to a cubit from the top; and set the door of the ark in the side of it; you shall make it with lower, second, and third decks” (Genesis 6:16).

The word tsohar is used here to mean “window” or “roof” in its archaic form. However, when applied as metaphor to the time of day, it takes on another meaning: “Prepare war against her; Arise, and let us attack at tsohar (noon). Woe to us, for the day declines, for the shadows of the evening lengthen!” (Jeremiah 6:4)

In every other instance of this word (Genesis 43:16, 25; Deuteronomy 28:29; 2 Samuel 4:5; 1 Kings 18:26, 27, 29, 20:16; 2 Kings 4:20; Job 5:14, 11:17; Psalm 37:6, 55:17, 91:6; Song of Songs 1:7; Isaiah 16:3, 58:10, 59:10; Jeremiah 6:4, 15:8, 20:16, Zephaniah 2:4) it reads as “noon” or “afternoon”. The reason is, the sun is said to travel a circuit160 or in Hebrew tekuwfa/teshuvah. Then, as it journeys towards the half-way marker, that same point is literally directly above us as a “roof” or “window”, marking the time of day accordingly. Similarly, as the Jeremiah 6:4 quote shows, the mixing of shadow and light – for this is another meaning of ereb (Exodus 12:38, Nehemiah 13:3, Jeremiah 25:20, 24, 50:37)161 – is the way to view the day “declining” because the sun’s journey is mostly over.
160 For more information, please consult Wheel of Stars. (additional commentary in the AENT)
161 It should be noted that it is the mixing concept that remains the same in these passages. However, instead of the mixing of light and dark the image is instead of racial mixing, or foreigners.
Another word that has the same idea is found here: “On the fifth day he arose to go early in the morning, and the girl’s father said, “Please sustain yourself, and wait until afternoon (natah)”; so both of them ate” (Judges 19:8).

Brown Drivers-Briggs Hebrew English Lexicon notes that natah also means “to stretch out, extend, spread out, pitch, turn, pervert, incline, bend, or bow”, so we have again the sense of the sun’s journey reaching its zenith and then beginning its decline in the afternoon. Either way, though, any portion of the sun’s circuit is surely linked to and counted as a day! Although, for the sake of being complete, I should also show how this applies in Tanakh on a practical basis: “If a man has committed a sin deserving of death, and he is put to death, and you hang him on a tree, his body shall not remain overnight on the tree, but you shall surely bury him that day, so that you do not defile the land which YHWH your Elohim is giving you as an inheritance; for he who is hanged is accursed of Elohim” (Deuteronomy 21:22-23).

By the strict language of this verse, a man who is killed, say, around 4 PM, cannot remain on the execution stake after sunset. Therefore, that time of his execution also counts with the “day”, because the “day” does not extend after night falls with respect to this command. We see idea elsewhere: “Now you shall keep [the Paschal Lamb] until the fourteenth day of the same month. Then the whole assembly of the congregation of Israel shall kill it at twilight. And they shall take some of the blood and put it on the two doorposts and on the lintel of the houses where they eat it. Then they shall eat the flesh on that night; roasted in fire, with unleavened bread and with bitter herbs they shall eat it” (Exodus 12:6-8).

In this case, then, we can easily see that even “twilight” – that last interval prior to night falling – is counted nevertheless as the same “day”. And, here it is consistent in the Renewed Covenant Writings: “When it was evening on the first day of the week…” (John 20:19).

Therefore “inclusive reckoning” is simply the way Scripture chooses to count time, meaning that “three days and three nights” can last anywhere from about 61 to 74 hours, depending on when a burial is completed and the time of year it happens. As long as then Y’shua can be shown to be in the tomb sometime before sunset on Thursday afternoon, a Sunday dawn resurrection can easily fit within the three days and three nights required by Mashiyach himself.

Mark 16:9-20 is Scripture!

While I will show that all four Good News accounts are in perfect harmony with respect to the time of the resurrection being just at dawn on the first day of the week, I have noticed that some are not convinced about the variety of endings in Mark 16 that exist on the Western side.

But, as stated in the footnote of Mark 16:9 and in my book Ruach Qadim: Aramaic Origins of the New Testament, pages 96-100, there is much ancient support for the full 20-verse version of Mark’s last chapter. Rather than list that evidence again here, I invite the reader to consider that material before deciding on the general point I am making. I view the diversity of readings on the Western side as a smokescreen having nothing to do with the authority of the Pesh*itta or the information it relates. What’s more, I will even extend that authority to the Greek traditions as well, since they are predominately in agreement with the Aramaic as I understand it.

Therefore, we shall let Mark’s Gospel speak for itself, rather than to insert our own preferences. By that standard, it can be argued that Mark intended to end with the resurrection happening before the women reached the tomb and saw the stone rolled away. Additionally, we have two places in the portion of Mark 16 that everyone agrees with that firm up the clear but “controversial” ninth verse.

First, 16:2 specifically says that the women came to the tomb when “the sun was rising.” Aramaic and Greek are both extremely clear on this reading. From verse 2, then, we have a linear unfolding of time:

And at early morning on the first of the week, they came to the cemetery as the sun was rising” (verse 2).

But he said to them, “Do not have fear, Y’shua the Nasraya whom you seek who was executed on the stake, has risen!” (verse 6)

There can be no denying that even the shortest reading contains 16:6 saying that he had risen after 16:2 says the sun had dawned!

What can seem confusing, though, is that John’s account says that Mary of Magdala was the first to see the risen Master, but Mark has put that reference in the next line, as if that happened later, as “then, at early morning on the first of the week, he had risen and appeared first to Maryam of Magdala, she from whom he had cast out seven demons.”

Is the “then” meaning he appeared to Mary Magdalene after these women? Not necessarily. All that has happened is that Mark (or perhaps Keepa redacting him) has switched emphasis to another scene. He has backtracked, just as we might do so ourselves when trying to describe the greatest event in history! Granted, seeing this chronology gets much easier when we combine it with John’s, but that has been successfully done many times before, including in my first book Signs of the Cross, pages 453-466.

We can also see this pattern of turn-back storytelling in the first few chapters of Genesis, where it happens with respect to the creation of both the Earth and man. The original Good News, penned in Hebrew’s sister language in the land of Israel, could hardly escape this same tendency. But careful analysis can reveal the real chronology with just a little extra effort and without doing violence to the plain meaning of the text.

All four Gospels agree on the timing


And finally, Mark 16 is not alone in the details it gives us, although it is acknowledged that the different writing styles in Matthew, Luke and John can present some challenges to understanding the timing, if we are not careful.

For example, in reading John 20:1, we can be left with the impression that there was no light present at all: “On the first (day) of the week, came Mary of Magdala in the morning/dawn, while it was still dark, to the tomb and saw that the stone was removed from the grave.”

See, the way it reads says “in the morning/dawn” which means that at most the women could have left home “while dark” but the sun was rising as they were making their way to the tomb. Not only does this agree perfectly with the literal account in Mark 16:1-9, it makes sense in terms of Torah observance as well.

Clearly two Shabbats (Sabbaths) are mentioned in the Good News accounts, one at the time of the crucifixion and one just before resurrection. John 19:31 tells us that the (Annual) Shabbat was closing. This is one of seven occasions that counts as Shabbat regardless as to the day of the week it falls on. Therefore, this Shabbat had to be set-apart even in comparison with the others that occur once a week, and again the text gives us the reason for that phrase very readily. Furthermore, Luke 23:56 says, “and rested on the Shabbat as was Commanded.” Luke seems to be doing the same thing John did by making his own clarification. I mean, of course, we are commanded to rest on the first day of the Feast of Unleavened Bread which just happened on that previous Thursday, so why point to “the Commandment”?

The answer has to be that Luke was aware of John’s emphases162 and wanted to reference the only Shabbat covered by the Ten Commandments, namely the weekly happening the very next day after John’s “high day”!163
162 Which seems strongly implied in his own introduction, Luke 1:1-5.
163 These chronological details are documented much more extensively in Ruach Qadim and in the translation portion of this diglot. They detail the fact that Daniel 9:24-27 points to 483 years after the rebuilding of all Jerusalem, and not just her Temple, which is referenced in Ezra 7:11-26 also and tagged to 457 BCE. That calculation agrees with details in Luke and John (15th year of Tiberius, 46 years from Herod starting his expansion of the Temple) and points to the year 27 CE as the time of Y’shua’s immersion. From there, the Passovers and other holiday details listed in John point to a 3 ½ year ministry, the half-week of confirming the covenant mentioned also in Daniel 9:24-27, when that prophet said Mashiyach would be “cut off”, or killed (Isaiah 53:8).
Now let’s look at some other information: “Now in the closing (evening)164 of the Sabbath, as the first of the week was dawning, came Maryam of Magdala and the other Maryam that they might see the grave” (Matthew 28:1).
164 Aramaic literally reads “b’ramsha din b’shabata”, or “in the evening of the Shabbat”. The literal meaning of ramsha is “evening” or erev, but here it is used idiomatically. The dawn and set of the sun is not the only use; there is the “dawn of a new era” or as John 19:31 reads “mitil d’shabata negha”, “the Shabbat was dawning.” When we compare other verses that record this event, the time of the day being referred to is clearly more than half a day before literal dawn. In John chapter 19, when they put Y’shua into the tomb, they still refer to it as being “day”, both in Aramaic and Greek. The “dawn” metaphor “to begin” is confirmed in John 19:42. A more literal form, “mitil d’shabata aiala”, would be read as “the Sabbath was beginning/entering/coming about.” What is true for “dawning” is also true of “setting” in the sense of “conclusion” as is meant here. This agrees with Greek version, Aramaic information in Matthew, and with other writers in the NT. Murdock and Etheridge also confirm this idiomatic reading in their translations.
The accompanying footnote has all the needed information (above). For the moment, though, my main point is that even the Greek reading of mia ton Sabbaton can be better understood through the Aramaic use of metaphor. The timing here is then after the first among the Shabbats, or after the weekly one had concluded. From there, Matthew gets even more specific as he talks about the first day of the week “in dawning”, clearly distinguishing the morning period from the dead of night. Once again, the concepts shown here work lock step with what we have seen before in Mark and John.

This leaves just one more account to look at: “Now on the first day of the week, at dawn while still dark, they came to the tomb and brought the spices, those, which they had prepared. And there\ were other women with them” (Luke 23:1). Luke’s treatment here is just as clear as Mark’s with “first day of the week, at dawn, while still dark”. If the women are on their way at that time, and the tomb was empty when they got there a few minutes later, the only time Y’shua could have risen was during that same dawning! As a result, all four Gospels clearly point to Y’shua rising at early dawn on that first day of the week.

Conclusion


While I understand the passionate feelings of many Netzarim that we must not tolerate twisting of historical events, this, however, does not mean other Tanakh patterns are not present even if Y’shua did not rise from death on Shabbat. Furthermore, the Wednesday to Saturday night scenario would still, in some cases, have the resurrection occur after sunset which, from Jewish reckoning is still “after the Shabbat” and “on the first day of the week.” Either way, he did not rise on Shabbat, but that is fine, since he, like us, are supposed to rest on Shabbat anyway! And so, why don’t we focus on other timeworn Hebraic patterns that are clearly entwined with the Passion Drama?

When was the resurrection? Part II
By Baruch Ben Daniel

For as Yonan was in the belly of the fish three days and three nights, likewise will the Son of man be in the heart of the earth three days and three nights.”
Matthew 12:40

Let’s begin by “leveling the playing field” and putting aside any “scholarly” or “theological” musings that “the Jews” have an idiomatic expression that makes “three days and three nights” equivalent to “three days and two evenings” or a day and a half. There’s also plenty of Jewish and Christian religious fables about Y’shua, Paul and the resurrection, so let’s just rely on Scripture for the plain reading. Yonan (Jonah) 1:17 spells it out: “shalowsh yom, shalowsh yayil” three days three nights. It’s, in fact, a universal idiom to say “I’ll see you in three days” and not mean a day and a half. When we read “shalowsh yom, shalowsh yayil” in Hebrew it means exactly the same thing as in English. Additionally, we need not speculate whether Y’shua or his disciples sanctified the calendars of the Essenes, Sadducees, or Samaritans, which is the folly of some.

Let’s also remember, as my beloved Netzari Jewish brother Andrew Gabriel Roth points out, that there were no less than four different levels of “Preparation days” during that week: “Preparation” for the Pesach seder; for the Shabbat of the Feast of Unleavened Bread; for First-fruits (to begin the counting of the omer–sheaf); and, for the weekly Seventh Day Shabbat. There are no Jewish idioms recorded in or outside of Scripture of a “Preparation day” that solely belongs to the weekly Shabbat. In addition, an investigation of the Aramaic and Greek texts that underlie the word “preparation” indicate a cadre of inconsistencies that the reader should be aware of, many of these now footnoted in this edition.

There are two potential days of the week that could qualify Y’shua to be three days and three nights in the tomb, and reappear when he did: Wednesday or Thursday. If we go with a Wednesday scenario, we need not truncate any days or nights into less than three full 24 hour periods, but we also run into another issue which we will discuss shortly. Truncating “light periods” or “dark periods” could potentially invite accusations by naysayers that Y’shua’s followers had faked the resurrection, or, some might argue that maybe he wasn’t really dead after all – or that his disciples paid off the Roman soldiers and whisked him away for a few days….As ridiculous as that sounds, there are people today who believe such things. No, Pilate was no dummy! He wanted a dead corpse and he got one (Mark 15:44); consequently, Y’shua’s tomb was put under strict observation. The chief priests and Pharisees were worried about what was going to happen in three days (Matthew 27:62), which is ironic considering that most Christians believe he was only in the tomb for a day and a half (Friday night to Sunday morning).

The expression “shalowsh yom, shalowsh yayil” can also refer to light and dark periods. It would not be wrong to wish someone a good “day” after departing a luncheon appointment, or suggesting that we make hay “while the sun shines”, because:” when it is night no man can work.” The point being, it’s normal to think of day and night as light and dark portions. Therefore, if we have three light periods and three dark periods we’ve, in fact, satisfied the “three days and three nights” requirement, which is the case with the Thursday scenario.

Scripture tells us that Y’shua and his disciples observed Pesach (Passover) on the 14th of Abib at “beyn ha eruvim” (between the evenings). Both Torah and historical records indicate that this is between the 9th (3pm) and 11th (5pm) hours. To complicate things, Yochanan (John) 18:28 states, “it was morning and they did not enter into the Praetorium, that they not be defiled before they had eaten the Paskha.” Certain Pharisees had not eaten the Passover lamb as yet, because of a massive logistical challenge (see footnote on this verse). YHWH required all males (Deut 16:16) to come up to Jerusalem to observe Pesach. To satisfy this requirement, approximately 100,000 to 200,000 lambs may have been required. Therefore, the Pharisees had extended the slaughtering of lambs into the 15th of Abib so as to meet the rigorous demands.

From the 6th (noon) to the 9th hour (3pm) on the 15th of Abib darkness covered the land (Matt 27:45; Mark 15:33; Luke 23:44), a clear message from YHWH to stop everything and pay attention. That would also put Y’shua’s death at the same time that the lambs were being slaughtered in the Temple.

Yochanan 19:41 tells of a garden at the same location Y’shua was executed, with a new tomb, where Y’shua’s body was laid. Matt 27:45 tells us Y’shua died at the ninth hour (3 pm) on the annual Shabbat of Chag haMatzah (15th of Abib). On Abib 15th in Jerusalem the sun sets at close to 7 pm, therefore, his disciples had approximately four hours from his last breath until sunset. Deut 21:23 instructs; “His body shall not remain all night upon the tree, but you shall bury him in that day.” Because Abib 15th is an annual Sabbath, both Joseph and Nicodemus would be intent on sanctifying the day and putting Y’shua’s body in the tomb as rapidly as possible. The urgency to remove the body was twofold, it was on a Shabbat, and, they were commanded to bury the body the same day that he hung upon the tree. Joseph and Nicodemus were men of wealth and influence, that acted in unison and haste, so we start the clock on the day (light period) of Abib 15th when Y’shua was put into the tomb.

As Andrew pointed out in Part 1, counting three days and three nights from Thursday, begins on the light period of Abib 15, so let’s add it up: THURSDAY: day and night: (1 day); FRIDAY: day and night: (1 day); SHABBAT: day and night (1 day): EQUALS a total of “three days and three nights”. Hebrew days begin at sunset, so in Hebrew we count: Yom Chamishi: ½ day; Yom Shishi: 1 day; Shabbat: 1 day; Yom Rishon: ½ day. On Yom Rishon (Sunday) we count the dark period (Saturday night) according the Gregorian calendar. Scripture tells us that Y’shua resurrected before sunrise; “On the first of the week, in the morning while it was dark, Maryam of Magdala came to the tomb and saw that the stone was removed from the grave.” (Yochanan 20:1) To fulfill “shalowsh yom, shalowsh yayil” Y’shua rose from the tomb before sunrise. Y’shua said, “three days and three nights” which implies that we start our count with a “yom” a daylight period, and end with a dark period.

Firstfruits

Pesach occurs on Abib 14th of the Hebrew calendar. Chag HaMatzah, the Feast of Unleavened Bread, begins on Abib 15th. Sefirat Ha’omer (The Counting of the Omer) begins on Abib 16th. The Feast of Shavuot (Weeks) or Pentecost is counted seven weeks from Abib 16th, which is the day after the annual Shabbat of Chag HaMatzah. The Torah, in Exodus 34:22, refers to Pentecost as “the feast of weeks”. Numbers 28:26 says, “Also in the day of the firstfruits (bikkur), when you bring a new meat offering unto YHWH, after your weeks (shavua) be out, you shall have a holy convocation; you shall do no servile work.” The feast of Shavuot (weeks) is based on counting “weeks”, which is why it is “Shavuot”. Deut 16:9-10 says, “Count seven (sheva) weeks (shavua): start to count the seven (sheva) weeks (shavua) from when you begin to put the sickle to the standing grain. And keep the feast (chag) of weeks (shavua) unto YHWH Elohim with a tribute of a freewill offering of your hand, which you shall give as YHWH Elohim has blessed you.” This is where Sefirat Ha’omer (counting of the omer) and Shavuot (Feast of Weeks) are derived.

Exodus, Numbers and Deuteronomy tell us to count the “seven weeks”, but in most English translations Leviticus reads: “from the “morrow after the Shabbat” (The word Shabbat does not exist in Pe****ta Tanakh or LXX). Nevertheless, the Sadducees and Samaritans (who heavily influenced the Karaites) used that verse to depart from the Torah based calendar that Y’shua, the Apostles, and the Pharisees observed. Sadducees, Boethusians (a high ranking family of Sadducees), and Samaritans counted Pentecost from the day after the weekly seventh day Sabbath that fell during Unleavened Bread. Each of these factions were in a vicious power struggle with the Pharisees and each other. The Samaritans claimed to be the true priesthood, built a temple on Mount Gerizim, and become fierce enemies of the Yehudim.

It wasn’t only Jewish sects that confused the original reading of Torah. The Greek Septuagint (LXX) in Lev 23:11 states “on the morrow after the first day” so “theologians” of the World Wide Church of God (WWCG - Armstrong) concluded that Sefirat Ha’omer had to fall on a Monday. They saw “the first day” to mean Sunday, so then the “morrow after” was a Monday so they originally kept Pentecost on Mondays. The LXX, which existed a century before the Pharisees and Sadducees came along, clearly means: “the morrow after the first day of Unleavened Bread.”
Both WWCG and Karaite “theologians” have influenced many within the modern Israelite/ Ephraimite (or British/American Israelitish identity) movement who prefer to identify more with Samaritan and Karaite traditions than with Netzarim Jewish values.

When we investigate Aramaic and Greek New Testament texts we clearly find that the Apostle Paul was a Jew and a Pharisee (see Acts 28:17 and footnote**). None of the Apostles followed the authority of the Sadducees who denied the resurrection, angels, and the spirit, nor did they incline towards Samaritan traditions. Acts 15:5 states that many Pharisees became followers of Y’shua. Acts 21:20 states that tens of thousands of Jews believed in Y’shua and were zealous for Torah. In the book of Acts, there are about a dozen instances where the Apostles were praying and teaching inside Pharisee synagogues. In Acts 18:8 the chief ruler of the synagogue believed on Y’shua with all this house. Luke 24:52 states that Y’shua’s followers were in the Temple at all times, praising and blessing Elohim, so the evidence clearly points to Y’shua and his followers worshipping on a unified calendar with the Pharisees at both synagogue and Temple services.
**Acts 28:17. And after three days, Paul sent and called for the principal Jews. And when they were assembled, he said to them: “Men, my Brothers, although I had in nothing risen up against the people or the Torah of my fathers,264 I was at Urishlim delivered over in bonds to the Romans:

Footnote:
264 By his own confession the Apostle Paul never spoke or taught against the Jewish people or Torah, in direct contradiction to those who say he did. In Acts 23:6 he stated that he was “a Pharisee the son of a Pharisee.” Then in Acts 26:5 he said “I lived in the princely doctrine of the Pharisees.” Paul makes the distinction that, “my righteousness is not (now) that from Torah, but that which is from faith in the Mashiyach” (Phil 3:1-8). Paul differentiates between Torah written upon the heart (Jeremiah 31:33), by grace through faith, contrasted to following a traditional religion “about” Torah. Paul was emphatic: “Do we then nullify Torah by faith? May it never be! On the contrary, we establish Torah” (Romans 3:31). Faith opens our hearts so that Torah can live within our “inward parts” through faith in Mashiyach Yeshua, according to the one new man. To those who willfully violate Torah and “break the Law” Y’shua will say, “Depart from me, you workers of iniquity!” (Matthew 7:23)
A closer investigation of Tanakh also reveals that in 2 Chronicles 8:13, the Israelites referred to Pentecost as “the feast of weeks”. Not only is it clear that the Apostles celebrated the Feasts on the calendar of the Yehudeans, and the majority of Israelites, but testimony from first century Jewish historian Josephus (Antiquities 3:250-253) also reveals that Abib 16th is the day that Sefirat Ha’omer is celebrated, and Josephus was an eye witness to these celebrations in Y’shua’s days.

Joshua 5:10-12 says, “And the children of Israel encamped in Gilgal, and kept the passover on the fourteenth day of the month (Abib 14th) at even, in the plains of Jericho. And they did eat of the old grain of the land on the morrow after the passover (Abib 15th), unleavened cakes, and parched (or roasted) grain in the selfsame day. And the manna ceased on the morrow after they had eaten of the grain of the land (Abib 16th); neither had the children of Israel manna any more; but they did eat of the fruit of the land of Canaan that year.” Notice the progression, the morrow after Abib 14th is Chag HaMatzah (Feast of Unleavened Bread) on Abib 15th and they ate the old grain for Unleavened bread, but then on Abib 16th the manna stopped. Exodus 16:26-27 tells us that the manna ceased on the Seventh day Shabbat. Astronomical charts indicate that on 1405 BCE, Abib 14th fell on a Thursday, therefore Sefirat Ha’omer fell on a weekly Shabbat, the day the manna stopped.

Clearly, the counting of the omer begins on Abib 16th. So it was on the resurrection week, that while Y’shua’s body lay in the tomb, his followers were in fact, “bringing in the sheaves”. By the time Y’shua was executed, thousands of Yehudim, Galileans and Israelites were singing a song like; “we shall come rejoicing, bringing in the sheaves” which is the ultimate fulfillment of Sefirat Ha’omer. The spiritual rebirth of many thousands of souls had begun, and they were now awaiting the Promise of the “Redeemer” or “Comforter”, also known as the “Holy Spirit.” While religious men were trying to protect their religious traditions (cash cow) by putting a seal on the stone, and a guard at the tomb (Matt 27:62-66 see footnote on verse 62), the seed Mashiyach planted had already opened the Kingdom of Heaven to multitudes of spiritually hungry souls. In the Parable of the Sower, Matthew 13:18-30, Mashiyach explains his and our roles in this Great Harvest.

“Putting the sickle to the standing grain” also brings to mind verses like; “the harvest is great and the workers few” (Matt 9:37); “let both grow together until the harvest” (Matt 13:18-30 parable of the sower); “lift up your eyes and see the fields that are white and have ripened for the harvest
already” (John 4:34); “Thrust his sickle over the earth; and the earth was reaped” (Rev 14:16). All who follow Y’shua, according to the Spiritual Rebirth, are also co-labourers with Him, (1 Cor 3:9) we “labour with Elohim” to help do our part to “bring in the sheaves”.

Y’shua said, “But I speak truth to you that it is better for you that I go, for if I do not go, the Redeemer will not come to you. But if I go, I will send Him to you.” (John 16:7) The Ruach haKodesh was poured out on Pentecost (Shavuot), also known as Yom haBikkurim (the Day of Firstfruits). The true fulfillment of “Firstfruits” is of the spirit, not the flesh. It is from the natural things that we learn of the spiritual, “we also in whom are the first fruits of the Spirit, we groan within ourselves and look anxiously for the adoption of sons, the redemption of our bodies.” (Romans 8:23)

Conclusion of the Matter


The real power of the resurrection wasn’t that Y’shua came out of the grave; that was already old news according to Lazarus. The Good News was that Mashiyach taught us and demonstrated how we are to become “Spiritual Beings” who will also put on an immortal body. The actual timing of the resurrection points to something far greater than the physical resurrection. The Good News is that Mashiyach showed us how to put on an immortal body, which is why he said, “do not touch me, for I have not ascended to my Father” (Yochanan 20:17); a widely held truth within the Household of Faith. By being in the tomb on Abib 16th, on the sixth day of the week (the number of man), Y’shua put the focus on the need for our newness of spiritual life in him.

Religion likes to put the focus on things like the Cross, Torah scrolls, things like foot washing, the Rapture; on days, seasons, and years, speaking in tongues, on prophecies, etc, but Mashiyach put the emphasis on our spiritual birth. Without the spiritual birth and growing in the righteousness of Elohim “from faith to faith”, we will not see our place in the Kingdom of Heaven.

Y’shua appeared to his disciples on Sunday, the day after the weekly Seventh day Shabbat: The Eighth Day: time, space, matter and everything that we see with our eyes and hear with our ears is going to be transformed on that “Eighth Day.” It refers to what is going to happen at the end of the Seventh Millennium, after the thousand year reign of Mashiyach; it is what the prophets spoke of, and what gets every Jew and Christian excited: The Olam Haba, the World to Come. It is a mystery (hidden thing) that is sown into the spirits of all believers, the destiny of the Ancient Path of Mashiyach.

What Y’shua taught nearly 2,000 years ago is as vital and as fresh as it was the moment he said it: “If you love me, keep my Commandments. And I will ask of my Father and He will give you another Redeemer who will be with you forever. The Spirit of Truth, He who the world is not able to receive because it has not seen Him, nor does know Him. But you know Him for He dwells with you and He is in you.” (John 14:15-17) Clearly, our part is to demonstrate our love by choosing to obey his Commandments, to observe the Word of YHWH, which is His Torah. The promise Y’shua gives is clear, when we keep his Commandments we will also receive the “Spirit of Truth” that the world is not able to receive.

And the Spirit and the bride say, ‘You come.’ And let him that hears, say, ‘You come.’ And let him who thirsts, come; and he that is inclined, let him take the living water freely.”
(Revelation 22:17)
06-17-2019 02:07 PM
PeterEnergy
Quote:
Originally Posted by esheldon View Post
First and foremost, we can argue the siblings thing in a moment, but FIRST, she was NOT a virgin her whole life:

Matthew 1:24 When Yosef awoke he did what the angel of Adonai had told him to do — he took Miryam (Mary) home to be his wife, 25 but he did not have sexual relations with her until she had given birth to a son, and he named him Y'shua.
The EOC construe "until" to mean never, despite it never being used that way in any other application. They even provided an EOC link delving into this.

For instance, I will not eat dinner until my wife comes home, does not, in their view, imply that I will ever eat dinner. It only means that I will not eat before this event, for sure, and the "until" adds no more meaning.
06-17-2019 01:19 PM
esheldon
Quote:
Originally Posted by Trogshak View Post
That's odd. I went to my mother on many occasions for things that I wanted. It was amazing the influence she had on my dad. Your family life must have been different.
Same here, but of course you didn't perform any critical reading...read again.


Quote:
Uh ... I'm not comfortable discussing your mother on this particular point.
Let's not get on the subject of mother's because I just got off yours
I bet you don't like that do you...I provided a stupid and illicit response because you HAD to go down that path first!

Quote:
Where in Scripture does it state that we are ONLY to pray to God?
Matthew 6:9 You, therefore, pray like this:

And you show me where it says to pray to anyone else.
06-17-2019 01:11 PM
esheldon
Quote:
Originally Posted by Batko10 View Post
Good post! Below are two paragraphs of the article which should be read in its entirety.

"...The Septuagint, the ancient Greek translation of the Hebrew Scriptures used by the Apostles (abbreviated LXX) includes specific words for "cousin," notably adelphinos and anepsios, but they are rarely used. The less specific word adelphos, which can mean "brother," "cousin," "kinsman," "fellow believer," or "fellow countryman," is used consistently throughout the LXX, even when cousin or kinsman is clearly the relation described (such as in Genesis 14:14, 16; 29:12; Leviticus 25:49; Jeremiah 32:8, 9, 12; Tobit 7:2; etc.). Lot, for instance, who was the nephew of Abraham (cf. Genesis 11:27-31), is called his brother in Genesis 13:8 and 11:14-16. The point is that the commonly used Greek word for a male relative, adelphos, can be translated "cousin" or "brother" if no specific family relation is indicated.

Is there anywhere a clear statement in the Scriptures establishing Jesus brothers as literally the children of Mary? In fact, there is not. Nowhere is Mary explicitly stated to be the mother of Jesus' brothers. The formula for speaking of the Lord's family is "His mother and His brothers." In Mark the possessive, anavtou"of Him," is inserted before both "His mother" and "His brothers," making a clear distinction. In Acts 1:14, the separation is more pronounced: "Mary the mother of Jesus, and His brothers." Some manuscripts use the conjunctive syn "along with, in company with," so that the text reads "Mary the mother of Jesus, along with His brothers." In any case, Mary is never identified as the mother of Jesus' brothers (nor they as her children), but only as the Mother of Jesus. ..."
First and foremost, we can argue the siblings thing in a moment, but FIRST, she was NOT a virgin her whole life:

Matthew 1:24 When Yosef awoke he did what the angel of Adonai had told him to do — he took Miryam (Mary) home to be his wife, 25 but he did not have sexual relations with her until she had given birth to a son, and he named him Y'shua.

As far as having other children, even the KING JAMES VERSION states:

25 And knew her not till she had brought forth her firstborn son: and he called his name Jesus.

Footnote from the AENT:

Y’shua is unequivocally Maryam’s firstborn son here, and the text clearly says Joseph and Mary did not start having sexual intercourse until she had given birth. In Matthew 13:55, “Is this not the son of the carpenter, his mother is called Maryam, and his brothers Ya’akov (Jacob) and Yoseh (and Shimon and Yehuda? And his sisters, behold, are they not all with us?” Some scholars suggest Y’shua had at least three sisters as the text says, “all” rather than “both” sisters. Mark 6:3 gives concurring testimony. John 2:12 states, “After this he went down to Capurnakhum, he and his mother and his brothers and his disciples, and they stayed there a few days” which differentiates his blood brothers from his spiritual brothers. Sadly, Catholicism asserts the false teaching that Maryam is an “eternal virgin” and in so doing has discredited the Truth of Scripture and the testimony of witnesses.
06-17-2019 12:44 PM
esheldon
Quote:
Originally Posted by Batko10 View Post
More slander from the Messianic Jews and Judaizers on this site.

There is no sense in discussing anything with these people, because they don't believe that the Christian Church should exist and will do anything to slander and denigrate the Church. In this case blaspheming about the Theotokos.

NEWS FLASH:
CHRISTIANS DO NOT HAVE TO LIVE LIKE JEWS AND OBSERVE YOUR JEWISH CUSTOMS
.

I can respect a Jew who believes in his Jewish Faith even though I disagree with him. These Messianic Jews who claim to believe in Jesus Christ, but deny the Church and live like Jews following Jewish religious customs are hypocrites.
GIVE ME A BREAK!!!!!

Show me in scripture where blaspheme is tied to Mary!!! Blaspheme is tied to the HOLY SPIRIT!!!

But you see I'm good, I'm covered...why, because SCRIPTURE tells me so:

Mark 3:28 Yes! I tell you that people will be forgiven all sins and whatever blasphemies they utter; 29 however, someone who blasphemes against the Ruach HaKodesh (the Holy Spirit) never has forgiveness but is guilty of an eternal sin.”
06-17-2019 12:39 PM
esheldon
Quote:
Originally Posted by cat_1978 View Post
Uuuuhhh... YES SHE DID!.
You mean she didn't have ANY children after Y'shua???
06-15-2019 11:23 AM
PeterEnergy
Quote:
Originally Posted by Eddie_T View Post
Rge following is taken from https://tzion.org/articles/threedays.html
Great link. Most assume by Sabbath, the Scripture refers only to the regular Sabbath. Every Jewish holiday is a Sabbath. I believe the ESV specifically says Jesus died the day before the special Sabbath.

I read somewhere that the week Jesus died, Passover week, there are 3 Sabbath’s: 2 special and 1 regular.
06-15-2019 11:01 AM
Eddie_T Rge following is taken from https://tzion.org/articles/threedays.html
Quote:
The misunderstanding comes from lack of knowledge of G-d's Holy Days (Notice I did not say "Jewish holidays"), and proper use of Jewish idioms. Several things need to be noted before we can proceed.

Italicized words in the KJV indicate additions by the translators in hopes of clarifying otherwise uncertain scriptures. Sometimes these contribute to errors rather than clearing up questionable text.
It is claimed that the reference in Matthew 12:40 is an idiom in attempt to explain away the three days and nights. However, phrases which include the words "and night(s)" are not considered to be idioms. (see "The Companion Bible", App. note #s 144 & 156 on Matthew 12:40) Therefore using the phrase, "days and nights" removes the phrase from the realm of idioms and causes the understanding to become three literal twenty four hour periods of time.
The weekly Sabbath is not the only Sabbath observed by Jews. Shabbat (Hebrew for Sabbath) literally means rest. The first and last days of the feast of unleavened bread (Chag haMatzah) are commanded rests and sacred gatherings (Sabbaths) in Exod 12:16. These days do not often fall on a weekly Sabbath but move around in the week year by year.
Having laid this groundwork, we can now calculate the true day of his execution and understand the nature and time of his resurrection.

Fact #1 - He left the tomb before sunrise on the first day (day is italicized) of the week. (John 20:1) Notice the words "while it was still dark".

Fact #2 - He was in the ground for three days and three nights. (Matthew 12:40)

Fact #3 - He was buried in the end of "preparation day" of Chag haMatzah (the feast of unleavened bread). On this day the final chamatz (leavening) is removed for disposal at the temple. (Mark 15:42; Luke 23:54; John 19:14)

Fact #4 - He was buried before the Sabbath which was "an high day", not the weekly Sabbath. (John 19:31)

Fact #5 - Days begin and end at sundown. Therefore when it says "early the first of the week while it was still dark", could mean any time after sundown Saturday.
06-15-2019 10:34 AM
PeterEnergy
Quote:
Originally Posted by Watchingtheweasels View Post
Don't bear false witness. Anyone who reads my original post can see the citation from Esther. So you now have two clear cut examples of Biblical citations from Esther and from the resurrection of Jesus where 3 days and 3 nights were defined as partial days, not the full 24 hour period you insist on to invent your false error.
Bearing false witness?! That’s you my friend. I grant Ester was partial day not how long Jesus was in the ground.
06-14-2019 07:20 PM
Watchingtheweasels
Quote:
I provided Scripture to support my position. You did not.
Don't bear false witness. Anyone who reads my original post can see the citation from Esther. So you now have two clear cut examples of Biblical citations from Esther and from the resurrection of Jesus where 3 days and 3 nights were defined as partial days, not the full 24 hour period you insist on to invent your false error.
06-14-2019 04:44 PM
PeterEnergy
Quote:
Originally Posted by Watchingtheweasels View Post
You're missing the point. You've been shown three examples of this, two of which (Esther and the resurrection) clearly define that 3 days and 3 nights does not equate to three 24 hour periods.
This is totally not true. I provided Scripture to support my position. You did not. If Ester has a passage like Matthew 12:40, show it. Otherwise she's told one thing and does another or you are denying the difference, the wiggle room.
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