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Thread: F-35 Dogfight Criticisms laid to rest? Reply to Thread
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Topic Review (Newest First)
10-13-2019 11:18 AM
The Old Coach It was tacitly encouraged during WW2 training. Lot's of pilot stories about "rat-racing" at low level. D.i.ck. Bong once looped the Golden Gate bridge in a P-38, and he wasn't the only one. He was also disciplined for blowing a woman's laundry off her clothesline. Yeager told some good stories, too.

Ever see a Herc do a full vertical wingover? I once did while I was TDY at the Fort Worth Lockheed plant in 2007. Just a Reserve pilot having some fun, I guess. If a Herc can do that, I suppose it can do a full loop, too.
10-13-2019 10:54 AM
Hick Industries The photographer is not in a great position to capture the crazy manuvers.

In the late 1990s, I was learning rock climbing in tbe eastern sierra. At that time Navy, Air Force, and Marine pilots would cross the crest of the sierras, and attempt to enter China Lake air space, without getting detected by the radar array in our north range.

To do this they flew up the San Juaquin river valley (through Kings Canyon NP) rolled inverted and barely cleared the pass, then pulled down while inverted in either Whitney or Onion Valley. We were watching this from the mountain peaks several hundred feet above the planes.

Prior to the fall of the Soviets and the Berlin wall, we were all expecting a war with Russia, and this very dangerous training was actually encouraged.
10-12-2019 08:13 PM
Justme11 Eye candy

10-02-2019 03:48 PM
puttster
Quote:
Originally Posted by Justme11 View Post
Yes, we used that same quote 20 years or more ago, when we were automating plants.

There would be 2 employees, the man to feed the dog and the dog to bite the man if he touched anything.

We finally value engineered them both out.
Ha ha.
That's the way I remembered it too, the dog to bite the man. Maybe they changed it to be a less frightening picture of the future.
10-02-2019 10:14 AM
The Old Coach
Quote:
Originally Posted by Justme11 View Post
Yes, we used that same quote 20 years or more ago, when we were automating plants.

There would be 2 employees, the man to feed the dog and the dog to bite the man if he touched anything.

We finally value engineered them both out.
The UAW is the only reason that GM/Ford block and head machining lines aren't lights-out. We had the process control technology taped 15 years ago.

I spent an inordinate amount of time "idiot-proofing" our machines. A task doomed to fail, since the UAW kept on developing better idiots.
10-02-2019 09:44 AM
Justme11
Quote:
Originally Posted by puttster View Post
The factory of the future will have only two employees, a man and a dog. The man will be there to feed the dog. The dog will be there to keep the man from touching the equipment.

Warren Bennis
Yes, we used that same quote 20 years or more ago, when we were automating plants.

There would be 2 employees, the man to feed the dog and the dog to bite the man if he touched anything.

We finally value engineered them both out.
10-02-2019 09:41 AM
The Old Coach Now THAT'S funny!
10-02-2019 09:23 AM
puttster
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Old Coach View Post
Many years ago a sci-fi auther wrote about a world where humans had entirely forgotten how to do math, because computers had displaced them. A kid whose natural talent for simple math made him a military secret.
The factory of the future will have only two employees, a man and a dog. The man will be there to feed the dog. The dog will be there to keep the man from touching the equipment.

Warren Bennis
10-02-2019 01:09 AM
Colt
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Old Coach View Post
Now a report that some German company has tracked an F-35 from 100 miles away, using some sort of "passive" detection system.

https://www.c4isrnet.com/intel-geoin...m-a-pony-farm/



F-35s mount radar reflectors when operating in non-combat situations, so civilian ATC radars can see them. Was this a factor?
Maybe, but I don't think they'd have anything to brag about then. I can certainly see how their system could be good against stealth aircraft though. It doesn't need a direct bounce back of radar, which is exactly what the plane is designed to prevent. Deflecting radar away from the incoming direction would actually hurt your stealth with this system.
10-02-2019 01:07 AM
The Old Coach
Quote:
Originally Posted by ajole View Post
2 dimensions, very tight maneuver rules, limited battle space, limited attack modes.

Perfect for a logic program to filter and sift.

Real world isn’t quite that small, nor logical.
Many years ago a sci-fi auther wrote about a world where humans had entirely forgotten how to do math, because computers had displaced them. A kid whose natural talent for simple math made him a military secret.

The story was required reading at M.I.T.

Idea being that computers could never make decisions based on insufficient data, but a man could. Corollary being that there would never be successful unmanned fighter planes.

I wonder what they would think now?
10-02-2019 12:53 AM
The Old Coach Now a report that some German company has tracked an F-35 from 100 miles away, using some sort of "passive" detection system.

https://www.c4isrnet.com/intel-geoin...m-a-pony-farm/

Quote:
Passive radar equipment computes an aerial picture by reading how civilian communications signals bounce off airborne objects. The technique works with any type of signal present in airspace, including radio or television broadcasts as well as emissions from mobile phone stations. The technology can be effective against stealthy aircraft designs, which are meant to break and absorb signals from traditional radar emitters so that nothing reflects back to ground-station sensors, effectively leaving defensive-radar operators in the dark.
F-35s mount radar reflectors when operating in non-combat situations, so civilian ATC radars can see them. Was this a factor?
10-01-2019 11:49 PM
ajole
Quote:
Originally Posted by Justme11 View Post
Chess computers do a pretty good job of it.

AI AI oh.
2 dimensions, very tight maneuver rules, limited battle space, limited attack modes.

Perfect for a logic program to filter and sift.

Real world isnít quite that small, nor logical.
10-01-2019 11:22 PM
AZ_HighCountry
Quote:
Originally Posted by puttster View Post
I read that too, the incredible kill ratio of the F-86 was against the Mig-15s and untrained NKOs. That ratio supposedly went south vs experienced Soviet pilots.
But really, who knows who it was who shot you down? IMO all that who shot who was BS, everyone who claimed something was pushing their own agendas.
Lots of documented history of the air war over Korea. Russian speaking pilots were heard quite often and US pilots filed numerous reports of Caucasian MiG pilots. It's also well known a number of Soviet "advisers" were taken out by US snipers as well.
10-01-2019 04:50 AM
Dread11 When it comes to visual dogfighting, guns kills are almost 100% the pilot flying unless the generations are grossly mismatched. It relies heavily on managing energy and aggressively driving the fight to keep the other pilot reacting and to hopefully make a mistake you can capitalize on.

Newer technology does have its advantages, though. You could be the best tail-fighter in the world, but it doesn’t matter if you can outfly me because as soon as we get to the merge, you’re immediately getting an AIM-9 from across the circle.
10-01-2019 12:28 AM
puttster I read that too, the incredible kill ratio of the F-86 was against the Mig-15s and untrained NKOs. That ratio supposedly went south vs experienced Soviet pilots.
But really, who knows who it was who shot you down? IMO all that who shot who was BS, everyone who claimed something was pushing their own agendas.
09-30-2019 09:23 PM
AZ_HighCountry
Quote:
Originally Posted by Colt View Post
Look at WW2 kill ratios. You can sit and watch aircraft development at a rapid pace within a single generation of pilots. A plane when first introduced will have a huge kill ratio, then as the enemy starts producing planes that match it they even out, and then when the enemy starts producing planes that surpass it they hit negative kill ratios. Same pilots. Even the legendary aces start dropping their kill numbers as the planes they face change.

The Yeager comment was remarkable simply because the planes were unusually balanced.
You also have to look at pilot skill level as well. The Germans and the Japanese were losing the cream of their respective air corps while the US was rotating pilots home to teach new pilots.

The same was true in Korea. Upon introduction of the F-86, USAF pilots dominated the airspace when they encountered North Korean or Chinese MiG pilots. It was a different story when they tangled with Russian pilots.
09-30-2019 09:12 PM
Justme11
Quote:
Originally Posted by dmas View Post
New peregrine missle half the size, half the cost.
Wow, big improvement for the F-35!

https://www.raytheon.com/capabilitie...ir-air-missile
09-30-2019 09:06 PM
dmas New peregrine missle half the size, half the cost.
09-29-2019 04:06 PM
Colt Look at WW2 kill ratios. You can sit and watch aircraft development at a rapid pace within a single generation of pilots. A plane when first introduced will have a huge kill ratio, then as the enemy starts producing planes that match it they even out, and then when the enemy starts producing planes that surpass it they hit negative kill ratios. Same pilots. Even the legendary aces start dropping their kill numbers as the planes they face change.

The Yeager comment was remarkable simply because the planes were unusually balanced.
09-29-2019 10:25 AM
The Old Coach
Quote:
Originally Posted by Justme11 View Post
Chess computers do a pretty good job of it.

AI AI oh.
I've seen hints in the last few months on geek sites that there's already first generation AI software for the big ones (e.g. Predator, I assume) that will let them pick their own targets and initiate weapons deployment, but nobody wants to take responsibility for letting it loose.
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