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Topic Review (Newest First)
09-20-2009 03:53 PM
tiecuando I don't care where it comes from as long as it works. If the Morro tribesman were the inspiration for the 1911, then I know as long as someone isn't pointing one at me, then my stuff will work!
09-20-2009 12:33 PM
AncientBrit Forget all this Asian rubbish and learn English martial arts,you know you want to.

09-20-2009 12:16 PM
monet108
Quote:
Originally Posted by sticks65 View Post
The videos are just examples of wetern martial arts,nothing more nothing less.

The Greek swords look very much like long Khukuris.

As for Alexanda the Great not making it into china,i know this but martial arts spread from India to china so i think there most have been a western influence on the Asian martial arts.
If it makes you feel better that the White man invented martial arts then more power to you. I am of the opinion that all cultures created their own martial art based on the way they fought themselves and their enemies.

All peoples fought and martial arts is just a refined extension of that simple fact. If you were given a club after awhile you would learn that somethings would work better than other attacks. You would show your friends and family. They would go out and learn new attacks and share with you.

To me that is the origin of martial arts. All else is story telling and national or racial pride. Unlike the argument for or against God this is a subject that does not matter.
09-20-2009 11:55 AM
AncientBrit
Quote:
Originally Posted by SeekHer View Post
I really think you've got your directions wrong...No, I'm positive!

Alexander, for sure, brought different styles west with his army but it is doubtful that they, the Greeks, had any, or at most, very little influence on the fighting styles of the East...

Elephants, horse archers, different style of weapons (sabres and crossbows) which of course meant different combat styles is what Alexander encountered and they are still around today (to some degree) but I don't see much of the Greek influence in any style of warfare throughout the ages, except maybe ritual boxing...

The shield and spear, nothing new...leaf style sword was replaced by an Eastern pattern that is called fulcata--a drawing cut as well as stabbing blade not a plain stabbing blade like the later Roman Gladius evolved into -- more along the lines of a large kukhri...Also the wondrous bamboo, Eastern medicines and treatment, different foods and spices.

So stick fighting is different in Ireland then in the Philippines? Pick up a large branch and beat someone over the head, but the display, the movements, the dance is different but the concept isn't...French Savate, is known to come from the Far East via the North Africans and then modified by Brazilians for their "Sampo" fighting from knowledge obtained by the Portuguese sailors proximity to France...

Remember that he never made it into China or Japan or the Malay peninsula...

The stuff you have videos for (excluding Irish stick), is more then 2,000 years AFTER Alex and his boys visited India...

Look at the training manuals on Medieval sword combat (1000 AD) to sword combat of the early Renaissance (1400 AD) to later (1500 AD)...the first two similar swords but different armour--means different techniques...last two totally different as the broadsword is over and the rapier style of sword emerges and again different armour (if even worn at all) means a different fighting style...

I don't see much in the way of Eastern swordplay in the manuals and for sure none of the Western methods would be considered in the East...Then the difference of a few hundred miles and swords go from straight to curved which again means a totally different fighting style and a few hundred more miles and they become even more curved (China, Mongolia and India)...
The videos are just examples of western martial arts,nothing more nothing less.

The Greek swords look very much like long Khukuris.

As for Alexanda the Great not making it into china,i know this but martial arts spread from India to china so i think there most have been a western influence on the Asian martial arts.
09-20-2009 10:47 AM
SeekHer I really think you've got your directions wrong...No, I'm positive!

Alexander, for sure, brought different styles west with his army but it is doubtful that they, the Greeks, had any, or at most, very little influence on the fighting styles of the East...

Elephants, horse archers, different style of weapons (sabres and crossbows) which of course meant different combat styles is what Alexander encountered and they are still around today (to some degree) but I don't see much of the Greek influence in any style of warfare throughout the ages, except maybe ritual boxing...

The shield and spear, nothing new...leaf style sword was replaced by an Eastern pattern that is called fulcata--a drawing cut as well as stabbing blade not a plain stabbing blade like the later Roman Gladius evolved into -- more along the lines of a large kukhri...Also the wondrous bamboo, Eastern medicines and treatment, different foods and spices.

So stick fighting is different in Ireland then in the Philippines? Pick up a large branch and beat someone over the head, but the display, the movements, the dance is different but the concept isn't...French Savate, is known to come from the Far East via the North Africans and then modified by Brazilians for their "Sampo" fighting from knowledge obtained by the Portuguese sailors proximity to France...

Remember that he never made it into China or Japan or the Malay peninsula...

The stuff you have videos for (excluding Irish stick), is more then 2,000 years AFTER Alex and his boys visited India...

Look at the training manuals on Medieval sword combat (1000 AD) to sword combat of the early Renaissance (1400 AD) to later (1500 AD)...the first two similar swords but different armour--means different techniques...last two totally different as the broadsword is over and the rapier style of sword emerges and again different armour (if even worn at all) means a different fighting style...

I don't see much in the way of Eastern swordplay in the manuals and for sure none of the Western methods would be considered in the East...Then the difference of a few hundred miles and swords go from straight to curved which again means a totally different fighting style and a few hundred more miles and they become even more curved (China, Mongolia and India)...
09-19-2009 07:54 AM
AncientBrit
Quote:
Originally Posted by tiecuando View Post
No, not all of Chinese martial arts come from India. And not all of Japan's arts came from China either.
Have you got any links to back this up
09-19-2009 07:53 AM
AncientBrit I like how this thread is going.

I do think a lot of it is conjecture and cannot really be proved on less we where actually there.
09-18-2009 11:45 PM
tiecuando I had a link a long time ago, I cannot find it now. But as I read that "internal" vs "external" doesn't mean hard hitting on the outside vs a powerful blow at short range capable of making you stumble back. What it really means is arts that were created within China, and those brought in from the outside. Shao Lin systems were external, because they had influence from India.

There are plenty of internal Chinese styles, and most traditional styles teach "short power" as well as long power. Then again, I've heard that what the Romans called "spiritus" could have been the equivalent of a Chinese one inch punch for Roman boxing.
09-18-2009 09:18 PM
letsgetreal
Quote:
Originally Posted by sticks65 View Post
I never said anyone stole anyone's martial arts,just that i think martial arts spread.......
Then I misunderstood the text. My apologies. Other than that, we agree that MA spread....now the exact route.......hmmmm. Btw, Iraq used to be called Mesopotamia. Also, even Yuhan uses conjecture.
09-18-2009 09:02 PM
tiecuando No, not all of Chinese martial arts come from India. And not all of Japan's arts came from China either.
09-18-2009 06:46 PM
AncientBrit
Quote:
Originally Posted by letsgetreal View Post
Actually Iraq is considered the cradle of civilization, but it's a stretch to imply one culture stole martial arts from another culture. It is most likely martial artists traveled and expanded their martial art to other cultures. Most all cultures began by just fighting each other, but then some began studying how animals fought and incorporated those, while others stuck to study of the human movements. Even the Brazilians admit their Jujitsu was copied from the movements of the Anaconda.
I never said anyone stole anyone's martial arts,just that i think martial arts spread from Greece through India and into Asia with Alexanda the Great and there are a few historians that think this could be true.

BJJ was created by the Gracies and has its origins in Japan JJ.

Japans martial arts originate from China, China's martial arts originate from India and so on.

http://www.jadedragon.com/archives/roots.html



Many authorities contend that the fourth century B.C.E. conquest of India by Alexander the Great laid the foundation of Indian martial arts by dispersing pankration techniques throughout the subcontinent.[6][7] Notable figures, such as Tatsuo Suzuki, Hirokazu Kanazawa, and Masutasu Oyama have pointed out the influence of Pankration on Indian martial arts.[8]


http://www.newworldencyclopedia.org/...n_Martial_Arts
09-18-2009 04:31 PM
letsgetreal
Quote:
Originally Posted by sticks65 View Post
well by this theory Africa would have the first martial art but until Shaka Zulu it was more for show than a fighting system.

And if your theory is correct wouldn't Africa be more advanced than europe in all things.
Actually Iraq is considered the cradle of civilization, but it's a stretch to imply one culture stole martial arts from another culture. It is most likely martial artists traveled and expanded their martial art to other cultures. Most all cultures began by just fighting each other, but then some began studying how animals fought and incorporated those, while others stuck to study of the human movements. Even the Brazilians admit their Jujitsu was copied from the movements of the Anaconda.
09-18-2009 04:20 PM
tiecuando
Quote:
Originally Posted by sticks65 View Post
well by this theory Africa would have the first martial art but until Shaka Zulu it was more for show than a fighting system.

And if your theory is correct wouldn't Africa be more advanced than europe in all things.
Some of the tribes had metal tools and weapons. They were the ones who captured the less advanced tribes people and sold them into slavery. Of course, Europeans had guns.
09-18-2009 10:39 AM
AncientBrit
Quote:
Originally Posted by letsgetreal View Post
Well all one has to do is determine who's oldest, the europeans or the orientals.
well by this theory Africa would have the first martial art but until Shaka Zulu it was more for show than a fighting system.

And if your theory is correct wouldn't Africa be more advanced than europe in all things.
09-18-2009 04:41 AM
tiecuando
Quote:
Originally Posted by letsgetreal View Post
Well all one has to do is determine who's oldest, the europeans or the orientals.
Chinese civilization is older than classical Greece. But, there was ancient Greece, nobody knows much about that.
09-18-2009 12:47 AM
letsgetreal Well all one has to do is determine who's oldest, the europeans or the orientals.
09-18-2009 12:42 AM
tiecuando I think it was "Mastering Jiu-Jitsu" where I heard that Judo, and this BJJ's ground work comes from a style known as "Fusen Ryu", but there is a school calling themselves Fusen Ryu that don't do that stuff. If it is true, however, then ground fighting may have also been a native art in some Asian countries.

The only real original Shao Lin techniques used anymore are the staff techniques, or so I've heard. Remember the cultural revolution, they can't even practice martial arts there without a license, so who knows what has been lost.
09-18-2009 12:39 AM
tiecuando
Quote:
Originally Posted by sticks65 View Post
It may not be fact but a lot of experts believe that whats happened,can you prove beyond all doubt that it didn't happen this way.

Read this link.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asian_m..._arts_(origins)

http://www.fightingarts.com/reading/article.php?id=164




Greek.
[400-300 BC.]
Well, I couldn't find any east Asian arts that do stuff that looks like that...so, I guess they didn't come from the west. You know, Hawaiians have Lua, it looks kinda like Filipino Kun Tao, but it isn't. So, even if they did have stuff that looks similar, it doesn't mean it had influence.

Now, I don't know if they ever had real ground/submission wrestling in East Asia, the only thing I could find reference too is "dog boxing", supposedly based on ground 'n' pounding, but I don't know if this was made up recently or not. They use BJJ in China.
09-17-2009 07:26 PM
AncientBrit
Quote:
Originally Posted by tiecuando View Post
The combat arts of the east are native, this is only what you believe, not fact.
It may not be fact but a lot of experts believe that whats happened,can you prove beyond all doubt that it didn't happen this way.

Read this link.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asian_m..._arts_(origins)

http://www.fightingarts.com/reading/article.php?id=164




Greek.
[400-300 BC.]
09-17-2009 05:16 PM
tiecuando The combat arts of the east are native, this is only what you believe, not fact.
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