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Thread: Limited resources and moral dilemmas post-shtf Reply to Thread
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Topic Review (Newest First)
04-17-2015 02:26 AM
Levant
Quote:
Originally Posted by ConradCa View Post
You have to have the dog repeat it's undesirable behavior so you can correct it and thereby teach it to stop. He brought the dog near a chicken so he could teach the dog not to attack it. There is no other way to teach the dog not to attack chickens.
You're wrong. YOu teach the dog to protect the chickens. It's a positive behavior you're teaching: teach what to do rather than what not to do.
04-16-2015 05:26 PM
ConradCa
Quote:
Originally Posted by swamppapa View Post
Yeah that's great,going to move in with the chickens so you can hiss at the dog?
You have to have the dog repeat it's undesirable behavior so you can correct it and thereby teach it to stop. He brought the dog near a chicken so he could teach the dog not to attack it. There is no other way to teach the dog not to attack chickens.
04-14-2015 11:47 PM
Levant
Quote:
Originally Posted by usmountains View Post
All this talk about shooting the dog is not in the best interest of anyone unless the dog is endangering your children or a person(s).

If it was your dog, you wouldn't want it dead for eating a chicken that the dog has an instinct to do. Animals are hunters, they used to kill to eat and being a pet is not changing their instinct. Training is the key.

Through the honor system its just out of respect to pay for any damages a pet incurred. Its the owners responsibilty to train their animals if they want to have pets and keep them fenced in if they are prone to wander off.

Some pet owners are not respectful and won't pay, but some would. I would make it right if my pet caused any damage.
It's clearly a case of blaming the dog for failures of the human. The problem is caused by inadequate training and inadequate fencing followed by a response that addresses neither situation and, if anything, makes the dog even meaner.
04-14-2015 03:25 AM
usmountains All this talk about shooting the dog is not in the best interest of anyone unless the dog is endangering your children or a person(s).

If it was your dog, you wouldn't want it dead for eating a chicken that the dog has an instinct to do. Animals are hunters, they used to kill to eat and being a pet is not changing their instinct. Training is the key.

Through the honor system its just out of respect to pay for any damages a pet incurred. Its the owners responsibilty to train their animals if they want to have pets and keep them fenced in if they are prone to wander off.

Some pet owners are not respectful and won't pay, but some would. I would make it right if my pet caused any damage.
04-13-2015 09:49 PM
Sprig
Quote:
Originally Posted by MIL-DOT View Post
After watching the video, I see the dilema. I'm thinking it would depend on how important that particular chicken is...
Now hop on back over to the OP and clicky the thanks button for giving him something to make your mind do a little pondering.

I clicked the thanks button because I thought Kev did a great job in presenting his situation in the video. My reply post about my grandfather was not meant to be ruthless, as these two people grew up worlds apart.

My grandfather was raised in a very small hand made log cabin structure, somewhere in the WA Cascade Mtns with his family, that Kev has probably zero concept of that lifestyle.

Today, as in Kev's generation, every TV show has a happy ending in less then an hour of show time and every movie has a happy ending in about two hours. But, this is NOT just about Kev, but his family as well.

The only issue I have at the moment, is that we have not been informed yet if the bird survived or not...
04-13-2015 09:18 PM
Goblin X
peacock, aint

Quote:
Originally Posted by fen View Post
A chicken with an infection? Dang, I had one that had it's butt ripped out by a possum and it recovered fine. I've never even heard of chickens with infections. We have flies up here that will lay maggots that will clean out any bad flesh. No need to waste anything. If I was going to waste something it would just be some sugar packed into the wound. Chickens heal or they don't and there's not much else to do for them that nature won't.

I have peacocks that wandered into my old farm that I moved to this farm. If I had to grow food without petroleum to run the tractor I would find out what peacock tastes like to save the bird food for the birds that give something more than feathers and big piles of poop.
half bad, infact tastes better than pheasant.
04-13-2015 03:35 PM
Carney My Daddy, GOD rest His soul, taught us, Eliminate the problem ...a lot of times, that ended up with a dead pet. I know we can't talk like that these days...
04-13-2015 01:46 PM
MIL-DOT After watching the video, I see the dilema. I'm thinking it would depend on how important that particular chicken is as a breeder in your overall situation. If the chickens become a critical part of your food sources, and you don't have an adequate supply of them, then using valuable meds to save one would not at all be a frivolous,wasteful use of them. It would almost be foolish NOT to.
Of course, if the chicken is just one a healthy,large number of them, and your family/group is eating well on the remaining chicken population, as well as rabbit,deer,fish, whatever, then obviously those meds would be better held in reserve for a more critical situation.
Just depends on the specifics of the situation,IMO.
04-13-2015 01:27 PM
MattGoffrey And incidentally ... you DO NOT need to hit your dog. "Beating" a dog has to be the dumbest thing there is. Little little more than a tap with your finger tips in the soft spot between the rear hips and the rip cage is enough to get them to pay attention to you if their attention is somewhere else.

A stern word is more than reprimand enough for literally any dog on the planet and verbal praise and plenty of your attention all the reward it needs (and often all it really wants).

Spend some time with your dog and teach it the behavior you would expect and dogs are ENORMOUSLY useful. There's a reason humans have been using dogs for thousands of years.

Just don't be an idiot. Spend time with your pet, teach it the expected behavior. Have it with you OFTEN. The usefulness of a well trained dog that listens because it was taught, not because it's petrified of you, can't be understated.
04-13-2015 01:17 PM
MattGoffrey It greatly depends on how your dog is trained as to whether or not I would consider it "non-essential"

That thing SHOULD be a living breathing alarm system and highly praised for alerting on anything going on. They hear better than you and smell better than you and if you let it know that alerting you to something (almost anything) out of the ordinary will draw praise (instead of being yelled at like most idiots ... I mean owners do to their dogs simply when their dog barks at something and trying to tell you about it) a dog is HIGHLY useful.

But you do ALSO want it to be trained to lay silent when it's told as well and it should be able to lay silent under virtually any situation and stay there till you release him/her.
04-11-2015 04:03 PM
clc79092
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bonny View Post
The only moral dilemma I see here is how many of you can be silent when you see multiple posts about beating dogs and don't say anything about it.
It is not okay to beat dogs. It is really loathsome to beat a dog with an animal carcass. Hanging a carcass around a dog's neck is absolutely reprehensible.
Take the time to be a responsible owner for all of your animals. Separate vulnerable fowl from puppies. Make adequate containment to protect your rabbits and fowl from predators which may be dogs, foxes, etc.
Training a dog is an investment and is the responsibility of the owner. Don't put dogs in situations in which they will fail. Don't beat and kill dogs it is not ok.
You are right about beating the dog or tying the carcass around its neck. The dog should be shot in the head and be done with it.
04-11-2015 08:39 AM
Kalashnikov47 I'd beat your cousin senseless with a dead chicken and then tell them they owe you for the livestock.

If someone cannot control their animal they don't need to own one.
04-11-2015 04:36 AM
usmountains I grew up on a ranch and we had to train all the dogs not to eat the rabbits or chickens. It worked great and never had any casualties.

It takes an hour each day inside the chicken pen with the puppies, but we had them on a lease and held them in place and said no each time they wanted to chase a chicken. No, friend, chickens are friends, be nice. Like talking to a child, dogs pick it up. They are smarter then people believe. It worked great.
04-09-2015 10:24 PM
sarco2000 A year ago I had a chicken with a severe wound caused by a fox. The fox actually had the chicken in it's mouth and would have run off with it if my awesome rooster hadn't shown up and given that fox hell.

I thought there was no way the chicken would live, but I'm of the opinion that if the animal has a chance to live, unless it is in great pain, don't take the chance away from it. I didn't treat the wound at all. The chicken is currently laying eggs for me. Chickens are tougher than people think.

As far as the dogs go, it's BS that once a dog has tasted blood, they will always be killers. I have trained my 10 year old dog to stop killing chickens (and cats), so it can be done. Of course it depends on the dog, but to make such a generalization as people make above is simply ignorant.
04-09-2015 09:41 AM
PLA Eat the chicken, eat the dogs too. If it breathes its food at some point, better to get that set in your mind first before it becomes a serious issue
04-08-2015 08:03 AM
fen A chicken with an infection? Dang, I had one that had it's butt ripped out by a possum and it recovered fine. I've never even heard of chickens with infections. We have flies up here that will lay maggots that will clean out any bad flesh. No need to waste anything. If I was going to waste something it would just be some sugar packed into the wound. Chickens heal or they don't and there's not much else to do for them that nature won't.

I have peacocks that wandered into my old farm that I moved to this farm. If I had to grow food without petroleum to run the tractor I would find out what peacock tastes like to save the bird food for the birds that give something more than feathers and big piles of poop.
04-08-2015 03:03 AM
bunkerbuster
Quote:
Originally Posted by zorost View Post
Pointing fish? I've never heard of that before. Have you tried getting him to retrieve?
To him "fishing pole" in my hand means, we are hunting fish.
He likes to hunt.
I have seen him chase & catch small trout in a shallow narrow stream.

If commanded to, he will retrieve anything I shoot.

When he was young, it was a task teaching him NOT to go after & attempt to retrieve deer and elk I didn't shoot.

Only dog I have ever seen catch a quail. If he see's a covey land in sage brush, he would do a eyes wide open slow walk to get close, then charge into the brush where the covey is. As they take flight, sometimes (if he was lucky), he would pull one down like other dogs catch frizz bees.

He is an excellent tracker & has been on several successful search/rescue missions.

Only serious "fault" he has is a tendency to disobey when a female dog in smelling range is in heat.
04-07-2015 09:04 PM
zorost Pointing fish? I've never heard of that before. Have you tried getting him to retrieve?
04-07-2015 01:52 AM
bunkerbuster
Quote:
Originally Posted by zorost View Post
Training dogs isn't rocket science. Dogs have the IQ of a retard, but are geniuses when it comes to learning by association. Reward good behavior, punish bad behavior, both in ways that the dog can associate the result with the cause..
Darn right a good dog will learn by association. My dog "Sarge" sure did. Got him as an unweaned rescued pup, so small I could hold him in the palm of my hand. Which I bottle fed, weaned to solid food & trained from day one. He is 10YO now, 106 pounds of intelligent cast iron muscle.

I'm a retired mining engineer. When not actually placer gold mining spend every possible moment in isolated rugged areas, prospecting for placer gold deposits. Most often panning along stream courses.

Sarge always had his nose in every pan, sniffing and trying to figure out what I was hunting for. By the time he was 3, he had it down pat, by smell. Placer gold is most often associated with black sand (magnetite, with variable amounts of ilmenite and hematite. Valuable mineral components often occurring with black sands are monazite, rutile, zircon, chromite, wolframite, and cassiterite.)

Which Sarge learned to ID by smell. Once he figured that out, if I was traversing along a placer gold bearing stream, with a shovel & pan. He would put his nose to the ground and traverse a short distance in front of me, sniffing.

If he stopped & started digging, sure as water is wet, I would dig right there, screen down, and run a few pans. Often getting results like below.



In other words, after learning by association Sarge is a far better placer gold prospector, than any person I know.

Same goes for whenever he see's me break out a trout fishing pole. He starts hunting & pointing trout, as below.

04-07-2015 01:04 AM
Shaz
Quote:
Originally Posted by kev View Post

The dilemma I have is using limited resources in a post-collapse world on nonessential livestock.

If I only had a couple of chickens then sure I could see using resources to help the hen. As it stands right now my wife and I have around 22 or 23 hens and one rooster.

But then again I have a moral responsibility to take care of my livestock and pets.

What do you think? Are limited resources a good reason to relieve yourself of a moral obligation?

If you don't want to waist limited resources on a sick chicken, kill the chicken and use it for something, like food, dog food, or bait. I don't see that as being immoral.
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