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Thread: Some questions about body armor/PCs Reply to Thread
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Topic Review (Newest First)
08-03-2019 03:09 PM
patriot_man
Quote:
Originally Posted by V. Berlioz View Post
Welcome to Survivalistboards! I, and surely many others, greatly appreciate the stopping by and the sharing of some hard info on a rather obscure plate.

To my knowledge, ATT Tactical's page containing info on the 4520 hasn't been updated since 2015. This was verified by a quick check on the Wayback Machine, although it's possible the page has existed since before this buyout and hasn't been updated since. Here is the earliest archived version: https://web.archive.org/web/20150401...le-plates.html.

Is it safe to assume that the 1520 and 3510, both of which are ICW plates, have a similar story? I'm surprised to hear that there are some 4520s actually floating about in the wild, although I'm also not exactly sure what ATT means regarding their "FBI spec" quote. I have some evidence to suggest that the FBI did adopt an XSAPI-level plate for tactical units, although that evidence states their choice of XSAPI to be the Leading Technology Composites 28601. It's possible that this "FBI rated" quote is in reference to a non-public requirement that LTC and Reed Composite Solutions both attempted to meet with their respective plates, although it indeed seems like LTC won that round. I 100% agree with your last point, as some sources suggest the FBI has since shifted to using the much-less esoteric Hesco 4800 in what would be the 4520's place.
The 1520 and 3510 have a similar story.

ICW is reserved for larger contracts due to the fact that the whole armor package (plate + soft armor package) is developed and certified together. Not only that but the current market trend is towards standalone hard armor.

I know plenty of folks are used to the idea of just throwing any IIIA backer behind any ICW plate but chances are these plates have been tested with a specific backer in mind. Not to say that any IIIA backer is less effective but just something to point out.

Another example would be TYR tactical. They sell a special threat hard plate developed by Morgan to perform with with TYR's own level II soft armor package (T52/SP). If not using TYR's backer, they recommend a IIIA for extra precaution.

That could be true about the LTC and RCS going for the same contract. I have no knowledge of XSAPI being solicited or adopted by FBI tactical teams, at least by HRT/CIRG, but have no doubt that there are probably some uber plates in inventory for these premier hostage rescue units.

Yes, the FBI awarded contracts for 4800 as well as U210, which beat out Tencate's Special Threat plate (forget the model number for that one, 6450?).
08-02-2019 09:55 PM
V. Berlioz
Quote:
Originally Posted by patriot_man View Post
Hey guys, just wanted to drop in and clear a few things up.

I'm a HESCO distributor (Saber Solutions LLC) and have a lot of folks reach out on a bi-weekly basis to ask if the 4520 exists or if it is order-able so I thought I'd find out where the inquiries stem from. Google has lead me to this thread.

The short answer is no. This was actually produced by Reed Composite Solutions, the company that HESCO bought out in 2014. As far as HESCO knows, only a very small number were produced for R&D and sales are even less.

It is an ICW plate as well and that is not in HESCO's business model unless specifically requested by an LE department in large quantities or contracts. As you can see, HESCO's line up is 100% standalone models.

Has anyone checked in with the distributor that has these listed? Is their website up to date? Also, I'm not sure what they mean by FBI spec seeing as the feds have chosen flagship plates that are available in the standard line up that is available to everyone.

Anyways, glad to be here. Love to talk about armor.
Welcome to Survivalistboards! I, and surely many others, greatly appreciate the stopping by and the sharing of some hard info on a rather obscure plate.

To my knowledge, ATT Tactical's page containing info on the 4520 hasn't been updated since 2015. This was verified by a quick check on the Wayback Machine, although it's possible the page has existed since before this buyout and hasn't been updated since. Here is the earliest archived version: https://web.archive.org/web/20150401...le-plates.html.

Is it safe to assume that the 1520 and 3510, both of which are ICW plates, have a similar story? I'm surprised to hear that there are some 4520s actually floating about in the wild, although I'm also not exactly sure what ATT means regarding their "FBI spec" quote. I have some evidence to suggest that the FBI did adopt an XSAPI-level plate for tactical units, although that evidence states their choice of XSAPI to be the Leading Technology Composites 28601. It's possible that this "FBI rated" quote is in reference to a non-public requirement that LTC and Reed Composite Solutions both attempted to meet with their respective plates, although it indeed seems like LTC won that round. I 100% agree with your last point, as some sources suggest the FBI has since shifted to using the much-less esoteric Hesco 4800 in what would be the 4520's place.
07-31-2019 01:29 AM
patriot_man Hey guys, just wanted to drop in and clear a few things up.

I'm a HESCO distributor (Saber Solutions LLC) and have a lot of folks reach out on a bi-weekly basis to ask if the 4520 exists or if it is order-able so I thought I'd find out where the inquiries stem from. Google has lead me to this thread.

The short answer is no. This was actually produced by Reed Composite Solutions, the company that HESCO bought out in 2014. As far as HESCO knows, only a very small number were produced for R&D and sales are even less.

It is an ICW plate as well and that is not in HESCO's business model unless specifically requested by an LE department in large quantities or contracts. As you can see, HESCO's line up is 100% standalone models.

Has anyone checked in with the distributor that has these listed? Is their website up to date? Also, I'm not sure what they mean by FBI spec seeing as the feds have chosen flagship plates that are available in the standard line up that is available to everyone.

Anyways, glad to be here. Love to talk about armor.
05-30-2019 09:23 PM
V. Berlioz
Quote:
Originally Posted by fragout View Post
Or ......( post shtf).....some low life out " scavenging" will simply shoot you in the head, and trade your armor for some cornflakes.....

Good info via body armor btw.

11B
A fair point indeed. Such is why Velocity Systems, Ceradyne, LTC, and others make good money selling low-visibility plates that you can feasibly go under the radar with. Protection levels on these plates generally run low, with Velocity Systems' steel and titanium concealable models protecting against nothing more than 7.62x39mm Mild Steel Core. Word on the street however is that Leading Technology Composites has a concealable and exceptionally light "Level IV Stealth" ceramic plate, but that's seemingly some inaccessible unicorn model. A more reasonable but nonetheless overly expensive piece is the BZ API rated LTC 28720.
http://adshumanitarian.com/online-ca...erators-plate/
05-26-2019 10:39 AM
fragout
Quote:
Originally Posted by V. Berlioz View Post

Roger that Captain Crunch! Lieutenant Lollipop is curious if it is best to then shift the topic of conversation to the highest speed of the lowest drag plates, like the LTC 28595 and the Ceradyne Defender 275. I fear that in SHTF, we may come under attack from the evil forces of the Spetsnaz on my lawn. They'll be equipped with tungsten carbide 5.45x39mm like 7N24 and 7N39 that will bust the API BZ plates pretty good, so we might want some of those 20 hit M993-rated LIBA plates TenCate sold to the Austrian Jagdkommandos! They'll be high speed low drag once we get some high speed low drag medical insurance for all the low speed high drag back pain we'll have in a few years.
Or ......( post shtf).....some low life out " scavenging" will simply shoot you in the head, and trade your armor for some cornflakes.....

Good info via body armor btw.

11B
05-22-2019 02:31 PM
V. Berlioz Anyways, here's an informal price list of my design for ceramic-composite plates that might be useful for high speed SHTF budgeting. Keep in mind that plates in the very high price ranges are not readily available to civilians and "borrowed" plates can result in your dog being shot. All prices are per unit. These plates do not represent my personal recommendations but are simply examples off the top of my head for each bracket.

$200-400: Entry Grade, Hesco 4400, RMA 1189, Highcom 4SAS7.

$401-700: Medium Grade, Hesco 3610, Hesco 4600, Hesco 3611C, RMA 1199 GEN 2, Highcom 3S11, "borrowed" ESAPIs.

$701-1000: High Grade, aforementioned API BZ plates, Hesco 3810, Hesco 4800, Ceradyne Defender 275, "borrowed" XSAPIs, some older-model LIBA plates.

$1001-1500: Very High Grade, Ceradyne IMP/PACT plates, Ceradyne MH3 CQB (old plate), LTC 28601, Hesco 4520, Protech 9812, TenCate CX-950 IC.

$1501-2000+: Lawnchair Spetsnaz Grade, Ceradyne Model AA4+ (old plate), high-end M993-rated LIBA plates, LTC 28595, LTC 28590, LTC 28550, .50 BMG / 12.7x108mm rated Ceradyne SARVIP plates, Ceradyne-Paraclete SOF ESAPI MK.II (old plate).
05-22-2019 02:13 PM
ForgedInTheFlame
Quote:
Originally Posted by V. Berlioz View Post

Roger that Captain Crunch! Lieutenant Lollipop is curious if it is best to then shift the topic of conversation to the highest speed of the lowest drag plates, like the LTC 28595 and the Ceradyne Defender 275. I fear that in SHTF, we may come under attack from the evil forces of the Spetsnaz on my lawn. They'll be equipped with tungsten carbide 5.45x39mm like 7N24 and 7N39 that will bust the API BZ plates pretty good, so we might want some of those 20 hit M993-rated LIBA plates TenCate sold to the Austrian Jagdkommandos! They'll be high speed low drag once we get some high speed low drag medical insurance for all the low speed high drag back pain we'll have in a few years.
Haha, love it. Carry on, my good sir!

Sent from my Note 8 using Tapatalk
05-22-2019 02:08 PM
V. Berlioz
Quote:
Originally Posted by ForgedInTheFlame View Post
Most of us here are high speed low drag.



Sent from my Note 8 using Tapatalk

Roger that Captain Crunch! Lieutenant Lollipop is curious if it is best to then shift the topic of conversation to the highest speed of the lowest drag plates, like the LTC 28595 and the Ceradyne Defender 275. I fear that in SHTF, we may come under attack from the evil forces of the Spetsnaz on my lawn. They'll be equipped with tungsten carbide 5.45x39mm like 7N24 and 7N39 that will bust the API BZ plates pretty good, so we might want some of those 20 hit M993-rated LIBA plates TenCate sold to the Austrian Jagdkommandos! They'll be high speed low drag once we get some high speed low drag medical insurance for all the low speed high drag back pain we'll have in a few years.
05-22-2019 01:50 PM
ForgedInTheFlame
Quote:
Originally Posted by V. Berlioz View Post
The Hesco is not rated against 7.62x39mm BZ API, which is the signature threat of the ISAPI, the plate between the SAPI and ESAPI that was never issued but shows up occasionally in surplus. It's a common threat for high-end plates designed for high-speed low-drag OCONUS use where .30-06 M2 AP level threats like 7.62x54mm B-32 API, 7N13, and 7N14 are unlikely to be used.

For additional information, Velocity Systems and SKD Tactical do not manufacture their own plates. They source plates from TenCate, LTC, Hesco, or rarely BAE Systems and Ceradyne, and then rebrand them under their own name. This is how most vendors do it besides RMA. Less reputable ones resell chinese plates. This is why the SKD Tactical and Velocity Systems plates seem to be somewhat similar in weight and thickness, and it's also why Velocity System's entries on the NIJ Compliant Products List are a lot of TenCate 'D' models. The BZ API plates might still be NIJ Certified, just not under their vendor name. You'll need to identify whether they're an LTC or TenCate, and then identify the specific model from there. In contrast, the ease of acquiring certification from a seller who actually makes their own plates, like Hesco, may be an advantage nonetheless in peace of mind. Source companies like Hesco also have "reserve" models that are significantly more capable than what they directly advertise or sell to the public. Hesco for instance has produced a "4520" 5.4lb XSAPI-level plate which is sold to LE clients by the New York area vendor ATT Tactical. They do not directly advertise it but all evidence suggests the model to indeed be a Hesco.
Most of us here are high speed low drag.



Sent from my Note 8 using Tapatalk
05-22-2019 01:47 PM
V. Berlioz
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nightvisionary View Post
He may be talking about the API-BZ plates sold by SKD which was what I was remembering. They are thinner, about an ounce or two lighter but just as I recalled are not NIJ certified. It does not appear to be rated for more threats than the Hesco 3610. Doesn't mean they are not good plates just not what I was looking for. My plates aren't for prepper/SHTF I depend on them at times to protect my life from current real world threats.

https://www.skdtac.com/SKD-Armor-10-...-p/amr.906.htm
The Hesco is not rated against 7.62x39mm BZ API, which is the signature threat of the ISAPI, the plate between the SAPI and ESAPI that was never issued but shows up occasionally in surplus. It's a common threat for high-end plates designed for high-speed low-drag OCONUS use where .30-06 M2 AP level threats like 7.62x54mm B-32 API, 7N13, and 7N14 are unlikely to be used, but the wearers need something significantly more comprehensive than a SAPI or Level III+ plate.

For additional information, Velocity Systems and SKD Tactical do not manufacture their own plates. They source plates from TenCate, LTC, Hesco, or rarely BAE Systems and Ceradyne, and then rebrand them under their own name. This is how most vendors do it besides RMA. Less reputable ones resell chinese plates. Plates of the same model do generally vary from unit to unit in weight and thickness by small numbers, so it's possible the two API BZ plates we're discussing are actually the same model.

The above would also explain why Velocity System's entries on the NIJ Compliant Products List are generally a lot of TenCate 'D' models. The BZ API plates might still be NIJ Certified, just not under their vendor name. You'll need to identify whether they're an LTC or TenCate, and then identify the specific model from there. In contrast, the ease of acquiring certification from a seller who actually makes their own plates, like Hesco, may be an advantage nonetheless in peace of mind. Source companies like Hesco also have "reserve" models that are significantly more capable than what they directly advertise or sell to the public. Hesco's most notable reserve plate is the 4520, a 5.4lb XSAPI-level plate which is sold to LE clients by the New York area vendor ATT Tactical.

Most reserve plates are kept on the down-low and lack publicly available NIJ Certification, so you will need to trust the company behind the plate and whatever alternative mediums of proving quality they have. ESAPIs, SAPIs, and XSAPIs for instance are not NIJ Certified but must abide by even harsher military requirements, which makes them just as good as your typical NIJ Certified plate if not better. The NIJ CPL is not really a one-stop-shop for determining plate quality, even here in the US. It's a good way to identify quality LE and civilian market plates from chinese crap, but it is not the bible of body armor. Knowing the reputation of the vendor and the plate itself is key.
05-22-2019 01:29 PM
Nightvisionary
Quote:
Originally Posted by V. Berlioz View Post
He seems to be speaking generally for people getting into armor who may be on a budget and need a universal plate of sorts, and not those who already have more capable plates such as yourself. Your Velocity Systems API-BZ plates are nearly $1,000 per unit, and are thus obviously going to enjoy material advantages over a $400 Hesco. The 3610 is also an outdated plate, and has been recently superseded by the more competitive 3611C, which should take over Nightvisionary's recommendation when it is fully available.
He may be talking about the API-BZ plates sold by SKD which was what I was remembering. They are thinner, about an ounce or two lighter but just as I recalled are not NIJ certified. It does not appear to be rated for more threats than the Hesco 3610. Doesn't mean they are not good plates just not what I was looking for. My plates aren't for prepper/SHTF I depend on them at times to protect my life from current real world threats.

https://www.skdtac.com/SKD-Armor-10-...-p/amr.906.htm
05-22-2019 01:20 PM
Nightvisionary
Quote:
Originally Posted by Disturbed70 View Post
Why would I give up my API-BZ plates for something that is .4 lbs (ea) heavier, over twice as thick, and is rated to stop less threats?
Please provide a link showing NIJ certification, weight and size and price. After several months of research I passed on those plates in 2017 but can't recall specifically why. It may have been lack of NIJ certification.
05-22-2019 12:39 PM
V. Berlioz
Quote:
Originally Posted by Disturbed70 View Post
Why would I give up my API-BZ plates for something that is .4 lbs (ea) heavier, over twice as thick, and is rated to stop less threats?
He seems to be speaking generally for people getting into armor who may be on a budget and need a universal plate of sorts, and not those who already have more capable plates such as yourself. Your Velocity Systems API-BZ plates are nearly $1,000 per unit, and are thus obviously going to enjoy material advantages over a $400 Hesco. The 3610 is also an outdated plate, and has been recently superseded by the more competitive 3611C, which should take over Nightvisionary's recommendation when it is fully available.
05-22-2019 11:35 AM
ForgedInTheFlame
Quote:
Originally Posted by Disturbed70 View Post
Why would I give up my API-BZ plates for something that is .4 lbs (ea) heavier, over twice as thick, and is rated to stop less threats?
Would make no sense.

Not sure if he has experience in the field.

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05-22-2019 08:22 AM
AZ_HighCountry
Quote:
Originally Posted by Disturbed70 View Post
Why would I give up my API-BZ plates for something that is .4 lbs (ea) heavier, over twice as thick, and is rated to stop less threats?
Read a few more of his posts and you will have your real answer.
05-22-2019 06:55 AM
Disturbed70
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nightvisionary View Post
Just get a set of Hesco 3610's and call it good. Best combination of weight, protection, durability, thickness, and price I have found from a reputable manufacturer that is NIJ certified.

http://www.bulletproofme.com/RP-Leve...tra-light.html
Why would I give up my API-BZ plates for something that is .4 lbs (ea) heavier, over twice as thick, and is rated to stop less threats?
05-21-2019 09:11 PM
Nightvisionary Just get a set of Hesco 3610's and call it good. Best combination of weight, protection, durability, thickness, and price I have found from a reputable manufacturer that is NIJ certified.

http://www.bulletproofme.com/RP-Leve...tra-light.html
05-21-2019 02:55 PM
V. Berlioz
Quote:
Originally Posted by AZ_HighCountry View Post
I hope I do too. But, I am also a realist and live in Realville. So I prepare accordingly. Unfortunately, that has not included yet any investments in armor.
A wise decision, considering that the upcoming NIJ 0101.07 standard is on its way and promises to really put the pressure on the industry to produce better US-market armor compared to the current 0101.06. Here is the overhauled list of threat levels in 0101.07:

HG1: Equivalent to current Level II.
HG2: Equivalent to current Level IIIA but with a faster 9mm threat.
RF1: Equivalent to Level III, but it also protects against M193 at 3250ft/s and 7.62x39mm MSC at 2380ft/s.
RF2: Identical to RF1 but adds M855 protection at 3115ft/s.
RF3: Equivalent to Level IV, one strike of .30-06 M2AP at 2880ft/s.

Conditioned (aged) armor will also have to pass the above threats at the same velocity as brand new armor, meaning that 0101.07 certified vests and plates must age with virtually no performance degradation over time up until the end of their warranty period. Big boost for survivalists there.
Source: https://www.engardebodyarmor.com/the...rmor-standard/

I'll illustrate some of the changes this will bring:

1. Steel plates of NIJ Level III rating will probably be unable to pass the 0101.07 certification process for Level RF1. This will result in AR500 Level III and even their III+, which is special threat tested to M193 at only 3100ft/s, being reduced to handgun ratings. This is also probably true for nearly all other steel plates. In turn, expect new truly M193-capable steel plates that will be a pound or two heavier.

2. Polyethylene plates will be kept at RF1, which is equivalent to NIJ III. No change.

3. Ceramic and ceramic-composite plates will now have two exclusive ratings to command. RF2 and RF3.
05-20-2019 06:31 PM
AZ_HighCountry
Quote:
Originally Posted by hardcalibres View Post
I hope you achieve your objective

But I guess guns and armor are for those situations when things occur outside your control/planning - which in general, happens quite a lot in our normal, let alone PA lives.
I hope I do too. But, I am also a realist and live in Realville. So I prepare accordingly. Unfortunately, that has not included yet any investments in armor.
05-20-2019 02:44 PM
ForgedInTheFlame
Quote:
Originally Posted by Disturbed70 View Post
LF has SME's from the industries posting, and they are actually vetted. If they lie about their backgrounds, they are banned. Those SME's aren't posting based on youtube videos done in folks backyards, or based on urban legends from some dude they heard was in Nam, or because they saw one sample of an item. Couldn't be more different than here. That doesn't mean it's "better." It just means it's a good place to get info about the topics they discuss.
I know what you meant, just taking a light jab at some of our community [emoji6].

Sounds like a survivalist version of stack exchange. That site has its uses as well, but I prefer a less rigid place where we can poke fun at each other and just have a light hearted time. Sure, there is a possibility that trolls and kids in their basement posing as vets feed some naive person misinformation, but the entertainment value of having these knuckleheads around is so huge....

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