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Thread: Crossbows and arrows post SHTF- the realities Reply to Thread
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Topic Review (Newest First)
05-27-2019 10:31 PM
Bishopj I not saying don't use a gun but what I am saying you should get really good with them all and if you start with the hard stuff to master the easy stuff is well easy as for small game I will stick to my sling shot I learn all the weapons I can and try to master the harder master weapons and keep in practice you don't know when your going to be separated from you gun or ammo and have to pick up a long bow recurve or make your own.
05-27-2019 02:14 PM
ForgedInTheFlame
Quote:
Originally Posted by fragout View Post
You are getting warmer, and spot on in a few areas.

Arrowheads kill by cutting thru vital organs to create as much blood loss as possible in a perfect world. In my experience, critters like deer and especially hogs do not loose enough blood fast enough to simply be " dead outright". Tracking is involved via 99.9% of the time.

With a rifle ....... one has more opportunities to place a pill into different areas of a critters body and a much better potential for puttin them in the dirt right there. ( Example: Head shots are best left for bullets imo)

Another....... Much more care has to be taken prior to shooting when it comes to any " minor obstacles " within the flight path, such as small twigs.....where a rifle cartridge and especially shotgun slugs have a far less chance of deflecting to the point where Vitals are missed. In short.....less opportunity for a good shot with arrow or bolt means a higher chance that said critter will pull something unconstructive towards your dinner plans.

As to security....... 1. Cover from arrows/ bolts is not cover from rifle fire. A body armor ceramic plate that will stop 44magnum will also stop either, but M80 will blow thru 4 of them . As with hunting, bolted and arrows have a much better chance of deflection via minor obstacles in thief flight path, where rifle fire wont. Add in the ones you mentioned along with the obvious advantages, and it's a no brainier when it comes to choosing. Shooting a bow from the prone position?. Good luck.

Another example: Break contact with a bow/ crossbow , or an AK/ M14.

In short........archery is a challenging hunting method , and why I have alot of respect towards those that utilize it for hunting.

However, sport hunting vs hunting year around iot survive ...regardless of terrain, weather conditions, etc...... Are 2 vastly different topics.... and the advantages of a rifle far exceed archery.

Edit: Pic below = hog eradication. All down in a handful of seconds via M14 S and R1 M1 ball. If I had a bow that day then there would only be one dead pig in the photo.....after I found its body. ( We found 3 more inside the tree ine after pic was taken, and there was ammo left in the same magazine after.

11B
Thanks.

I did think of trajectory obstacles but didn't know how to put that in words, you did a great job here.

Not a bow hunter personally so less familiar with them in application. Didn't realize most bow kills require tracking due to insufficient blood loss.

And you're right, bows are no good for prone, supported fighting positions imo.

I like Daryl in the walking dead, but I'd keep maybe the crossbow around for killing small game silently, over being my primary weapon for self defense or movements.

Sent from my Note 8 using Tapatalk
05-27-2019 01:55 PM
fragout
Quote:
Originally Posted by ForgedInTheFlame View Post
I'll take a gander at other limitations.

A greater need for good placement because unlike a pill, the arrow or bolt will not travel or expand beyond entry and is limited to penetration and energy transfer more or less immediately around the entry wound.

In any situation where you need to follow up, or if we are dealing with dangerous game like wild boar, you probably wont have the speed to grab and draw and release with a good sight picture of your target, especially if you are being charged.

Bows for patrolling are ineffective, bows are awkward, long, and you can't sit around all day with a bow somewhat at the low ready. Also, if I'm ambushed, how can I possibly be ready to fire an arrow in comparable time to how quickly I can switch my selector and open fire with any weapon system the army taught me to maintain and use effectively in defense of our nations policies.

If anything, I'll take your bow, break it down, and use the drawstring and other components to rig up certain security measures that we cannot discuss on these boards, if SHTF.

Sent from my Note 8 using Tapatalk
You are getting warmer, and spot on in a few areas. ( I have had hogs take a run at me before. Best bet if only armed with a bow/ crossbow = drop it and get my butt up the nearest tree )

Arrowheads kill by cutting thru vital organs to create as much blood loss as possible in a perfect world. In my experience, critters like deer and especially hogs do not loose enough blood fast enough to simply be " dead outright". Tracking is involved via 99.9% of the time.

With a rifle ....... one has more opportunities to place a pill into different areas of a critters body and a much better potential for puttin them in the dirt right there. ( Example: Head shots are best left for bullets imo)

Another....... Much more care has to be taken prior to shooting when it comes to any " minor obstacles " within the flight path, such as small twigs.....where a rifle cartridge and especially shotgun slugs have a far less chance of deflecting to the point where Vitals are missed. In short.....less opportunity for a good shot with arrow or bolt means a higher chance that said critter will pull something unconstructive towards your dinner plans.

As to security....... 1. Cover from arrows/ bolts is not cover from rifle fire. A body armor ceramic plate that will stop 44magnum will also stop either, but M80 will blow thru 4 of them . As with hunting, bolted and arrows have a much better chance of deflection via minor obstacles in thief flight path, where rifle fire wont. Add in the ones you mentioned along with the obvious advantages, and it's a no brainier when it comes to choosing. Shooting a bow from the prone position?. Good luck.

Another example: Break contact with a bow/ crossbow , or an AK/ M14.

In short........archery is a challenging hunting method , and why I have alot of respect towards those that utilize it for hunting.

However, sport hunting vs hunting year around iot survive ...regardless of terrain, weather conditions, etc...... Are 2 vastly different topics.... and the advantages of a rifle far exceed archery.

Edit: Pic below = hog eradication. All down in a handful of seconds via M14 S and R1 M1 ball. If I had a bow that day then there would only be one dead pig in the photo.....after I found its body. ( We found 3 more inside the tree ine after pic was taken, and there was ammo left in the same magazine after. Multiple fast moving targets .
11B
05-27-2019 12:49 PM
ForgedInTheFlame
Quote:
Originally Posted by fragout View Post
That argument only holds water if you have a very good bow hunter against a very bad rifle hunter.... Hunting at 300 400 yards requires skill...just as archery hunting does. The big difference = The rifleman that can accomplish it has much more options .

As with the title of this thread......The realities are simple.

1. Archery hunting proved to be a better method than the spear. The minute when the first primitive firearms hit the scene, them bows and arrows were replaced by them. Today's archery equipment is good for hunting during archery season because it is legal to use. Without seasons or in places where either can be used, there is no contest as to which type is much more effective.Instant gratification is one way to put it. Instant food on the ground when your hungry is another way to put it.

2. Have plenty of first hand experience bow hunting in the Ozark Mtns, Rocky Mtns, and all over Texas. Anyone that actually hunts with archery will know the drastic limitations compared to modern firearms. Distance is the obvious one, but I have yet to see anyone mention the others. ( A whole topic onto itself here.......and I will wait to see if anyone knows what Im talking about.)

3. Security: ( I will skip the obvious ones here and focus on where modern firearms are the better tool for the following tasks)
Overwatch, Far side ambush, near side ambush, LP/OP duty, simple guard duty, patrolling ( all types), crossing danger areas, defensive positions, attacking, counter attack, long range interdiction, MOUT operations, self defense/ PDW, and a host of others I could list.

Dont get me wrong here. I hunt with archery, and respect others who do as well. With that said, there is no way I would choose any archery equipment over modern firearms via shtf, as the advantages of a rifle far exceed it.

11B
I'll take a gander at other limitations.

A greater need for good placement because unlike a pill, the arrow or bolt will not travel or expand beyond entry and is limited to penetration and energy transfer more or less immediately around the entry wound.

In any situation where you need to follow up, or if we are dealing with dangerous game like wild boar, you probably wont have the speed to grab and draw and release with a good sight picture of your target, especially if you are being charged.

Bows for patrolling are ineffective, bows are awkward, long, and you can't sit around all day with a bow somewhat at the low ready. Also, if I'm ambushed, how can I possibly be ready to fire an arrow in comparable time to how quickly I can switch my selector and open fire with any weapon system the army taught me to maintain and use effectively in defense of our nations policies.

If anything, I'll take your bow, break it down, and use the drawstring and other components to rig up certain security measures that we cannot discuss on these boards, if SHTF.

Sent from my Note 8 using Tapatalk
05-27-2019 12:36 PM
fragout
Quote:
Originally Posted by Collector63 View Post
If you stick a hog in the front yard, and don’t kill it outright, everybody for 300 yards in any direction is coming to your house for bar-b-q. Man, they make a lot of noise!
We kill hogs with all sorts of tools around here. Hogs don't die right there if struck by an arrow or bolt, and always run off...usually squealin like a stuck pig.......hence that old saying. ......

Place a 308 168gr OTM bullet to a hog here ( pics 1 and 2 below), and they don't make a sound after.....
Note: Both taken right past 100 yards. ( I have a big yard..lol)
Note: Pic one shows exit wound.

Both were dead before their carcass hit the dirt.

11B
05-27-2019 12:31 PM
fragout
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bishopj View Post
Bows are good hunting weapons most of the time when people are telling you that they are not is because they won't spend the time to learn how to use them themselves they want instant gratification years ago I hunted with a recurve bow I would go to the woods take deer and hogs and see no one then the compound bow came out and I would see a few guy hunting but still only holding grouping like my receive bow then compound bows got better more hunters in the woods then cross bows and a ton of people in the woods trying to take deer at 90 yards for ever one deer killed 10 are wounded at that distance same with a gun Hunter people shooting at stuff way out of there shooting range just because a gun can shoot 300 to 400 yards don't mean you need to hunt at that distance.
That argument only holds water if you have a very good bow hunter against a very bad rifle hunter.... Hunting at 300 400 yards requires skill...just as archery hunting does. The big difference = The rifleman that can accomplish it has much more options .

As with the title of this thread......The realities are simple.

1. Archery hunting proved to be a better method than the spear. The minute when the first primitive firearms hit the scene, them bows and arrows were replaced by them. Today's archery equipment is good for hunting during archery season because it is legal to use. Without seasons or in places where either can be used, there is no contest as to which type is much more effective.Instant gratification is one way to put it. Instant food on the ground when your hungry is another way to put it.

2. Have plenty of first hand experience bow hunting in the Ozark Mtns, Rocky Mtns, and all over Texas. Anyone that actually hunts with archery will know the drastic limitations compared to modern firearms. Distance is the obvious one, but I have yet to see anyone mention the others. ( A whole topic onto itself here.......and I will wait to see if anyone knows what Im talking about.)

3. Security: ( I will skip the obvious ones here and focus on where modern firearms are the better tool for the following tasks)
Overwatch, Far side ambush, near side ambush, LP/OP duty, simple guard duty, patrolling ( all types), crossing danger areas, defensive positions, attacking, counter attack, long range interdiction, MOUT operations, self defense/ PDW, and a host of others I could list.

Dont get me wrong here. I hunt with archery, and respect others who do as well. With that said, there is no way I would choose any archery equipment over modern firearms via shtf, as the advantages of a rifle far exceed it.

I would rather use the pistol in below pic vs any archery

11B
05-26-2019 06:28 PM
Collector63
Quote:
Originally Posted by WolfSpring View Post
What scenario are we talking? Anything short of combat a skilled archer with a compound bow can make 6 arrows last a long time. My dad has boxes of old arrows laying around still in good condition from decades ago, the only reason he buys new is upgrades in technology or upgrade his bow. If you are using it solely for hunting it can last a good long time. Bow hunting takes a lot of skill and if you practice that skill and can stalk a deer, elk, antelope, or any other animal you are hunting you can make those arrows last. One of the biggest problem I've seen is power hungry people with 85# + draws destroying arrows that go clean through an animal or hit a rib. Even a good recurve that you can break down you can make arrows for and put food on the table for years to come. I hear a lot of people complaining about bows and crossbows on the breakage factor and getting new parts. You "could" potentially make a device to use your arrows/bolts after a breakage something like an atlatl or a slingshot and still hunt shorter distance.

My bow is my back up, put food on the table will never be my goto for any true survival situation where I"m bugging out as it is too bulky for what it can do vs any other weapon. Where I live in Hawaii here I'd bug in, water close enough wild pigs, birds, mongoose around. Bugging in I'd go out with the bow if hogs were in the front yard just for the simplicity and silence. As anything it's shooters choice, but bows are a lot more skill and practice involved than firearms.
If you stick a hog in the front yard, and donít kill it outright, everybody for 300 yards in any direction is coming to your house for bar-b-q. Man, they make a lot of noise!
05-26-2019 03:07 PM
CrypticCRICKET Longbows and recurves can shoot arrows made from native materials. They bring the arrow up to speed over a longer power stroke so they put much less stress on the arrow. It's technology that's been proven many thousands of years.


Pellet rifles are excellent low maintenance weapons for taking small and medium game. Most anyone can shoot them well. They make molds for casting your own pellets from lead. You can buy and store thousands of pellets for cheap right now while the grid still exists. Lots of pellet styles to choose from. Even a weak .177 cal pellet rifle (350 fps) can put a squirrel in the pot with a good head shot. Better pellet rifles are shooting at speeds between 950- 1300 fps. they'll kill coon sized things with a head shot. The bottom end of the food chain has more volume and diversity than the top end of the food chain.
05-26-2019 01:27 PM
ForgedInTheFlame As I've said in a similar thread, bows / crossbows have their uses and advantages but they don't outweigh the disadvantages they have, and I'd only be using a bow SHTF if I have zero firearms, and I'd prefer something like a spear in many situations where someone might argue a bow makes sense.



Sent from my Note 8 using Tapatalk
05-26-2019 12:30 PM
Bishopj Bows are good hunting weapons most of the time when people are telling you that they are not is because they won't spend the time to learn how to use them themselves they want instant gratification years ago I hunted with a recurve bow I would go to the woods take deer and hogs and see no one then the compound bow came out and I would see a few guy hunting but still only holding grouping like my receive bow then compound bows got better more hunters in the woods then cross bows and a ton of people in the woods trying to take deer at 90 yards for ever one deer killed 10 are wounded at that distance same with a gun Hunter people shooting at stuff way out of there shooting range just because a gun can shoot 300 to 400 yards don't mean you need to hunt at that distance.
05-25-2019 10:59 AM
fragout I really don't see crossbows ( or any other type of archery for that matter) as a " post shtf" tool for hunting or security. Simply put......there are much better tools for either task, and where the stock pile/ cache/ training/ skillsets would be best focused towards.

And.....not just firearms with thier huge advantages via security as well as year around hunting iot have something to eat when you get hungry. Effective traps/ snares are very easy to create from items found in nature, can be made enmasse, work 24/7, and very easy to keep several dozen or more maintained while using them long term. ( Especially the types that are specific for small game, which in my expierience. ...is a much better return in meat obtained vs using firearms and especially any type of archery.) The real skill involved with trapping begins after one builds those traps.

As with crossbows...firearms take less training compared to other types of archery equipment, but lack in every other category....too include being quiet via suppressors and subsonic ammunition. In addition......try and use any archery equipment if one shoulder/ arm becomes injured. Not all that easy to do.

As to security......there is no contest in a firearm vs archery . No need to go into detail here.

On a side note: I have seen/ dumped quite a few feral pigs over the years with arrows/ bolts stuck in them, and they were very much alive and thriving up until that point. Fwiw.......none of those arrows/ bolts were even close to being able to be " re used". ( Dented shafts / broadheads don't fly with any consistent path whatsoever in my expierience.

One could stockpile/ cache " archery ammo" just fine, but then again.....the same can be done with rifle/ pistol ammunition.

Lastly....... The perceived advantages of making your own arrows/ bolts may sound good on paper, but not as practical in a post shtf environment imo. Time management becomes all the more important, and long story short......thier is better things to be doing than making arrows or bolts from scratch.

While a nice, fun, and challenging method for sport hunting, I for one would rather have better tools available if that was the priority for survival post shtf.......

Edit: One example ( photos below)
The rifle in first pic was used to drop the critter in 2nd pic with one shot at a tad over effective/ consistent range of any archery. ( 60 yards compared to a bit over 600 yards in this case). Yup....loud and violent, which aint all a bad thing if " bad guys" show up either. The 3rd pic shows a 22/45 LITE with can. Very quiet ( HV aint over the speed of sound thru this bbl), very compact too include ammo, easy to use with one hand, and 1000 rounds weigh 7.5 lbs

11B
03-01-2019 11:02 PM
nightwolf1974
Quote:
Originally Posted by ajole View Post
Even more importantly, those less trained soldiers were able to reach out further, and even punch armor with them, which typical bows couldn't even dent......
No, the period crossbows were only effective at closer ranges. True, some had crazy draw weights, but they were SLOW! An experienced longbow archer could shoot off 10-12 arrows in the time it took a crossbow archer to shoot, pull string back, seat bolt, aim, and shoot again. And even though some munition grade crossbows had a almost 1,000lb pull, they had to be cocked with special cranking devices. Behind the ramparts of a castle, defending against an invading army, they are better than a longbow.

I have 2 crossbows, a Barnett Jackal, and Excalibur G340 Matrix. Both are good bows, but are heavy, loud (for a bow) and limited. A good longbow or recurve is better, since they quieter and simple. Just my 2Ę.....
02-25-2019 11:43 AM
kl0an
Quote:
Originally Posted by sixtus View Post
Those prices are interesting, are they quality bolts including broadheads at that price?? I'll run this by the North American crossbow forums I visit if so.
I always make a trip to WalMart after archery season whether I'm actively shooting my recurve or one of my 3 compounds or not.. Always nice to get great deals on arrows, broadheads, and target points so I can shoot them in my back yard into my archery target.

I usually pick up a certain type that is the same as I've picked up several times before, just so I have an overabundance of arrows and broadheads in case I lose or bend one. No need to adjust my sights if I just pull another arrow from my quiver.

'd say my $7 gun show special recurve is my go-to bow but, my Ted Nugent compound will be right there with it.

I'll be carrying a pistol for bad guys but, for putting squirrel in the pot or deer on the table, I'll use my bows. That way, no one else knows where I'm at.

My pistol, BTW, is a Ruger MK 1 in .22 long rifle. I put a 10" Paclite aluminum barrel with a steel sleeve inside and a scope on it to give me a fair chance at little critters for dinner.

For survival hunting, I really don't see me killing a deer or pig as then I have to find some way to keep it from rotting.. Couple of fox squirrels a day is more than enough to fill a stew pot to feed me and the missus and have some left over for my dogs.
05-17-2018 05:02 AM
Hagalaz
Quote:
Originally Posted by bilmac View Post
There used to be simple 3 blade broadheads available that just glued directly onto a tapered wooden shaft. They didn't cost much compared to all the new whiz bang heads. They weren't a lot of $. BUT, you had to sharpen them yourself.

I would think that crossbow bolts could be somewhat practical to make yourself using lumberyard dowels.Since bolts are a lot shorter than arrows you shouldn't have to worry about spline too much. When I was a kid I used to make arrows out of dowels that I used to shoot with a 50# recurve bow. They used to work , but I wasn't a good enough shot to be very discerning.
You can still get those kind of glue-on broadheads.

Zwickey still makes them.

https://www.3riversarchery.com/zwick...ds-3-pack.html
05-16-2018 03:37 PM
Toxoph
Quote:
Originally Posted by bilmac View Post
The reason I sold mine is because I HATED packing it around in the woods. Instead of a nice slim rifle now you have a three dimensional thing catching on everything. If you carry it ready to shoot, about every place around it is dangerous if it goes off accidentally. Can get in front of the limbs, can't get in front of the string.
Look at the steambow thread below. I watched the video and I was very impressed, it solves the problems you mentioned but the downside is the cost, not cheap!
05-16-2018 10:33 AM
sixtus billmac it would be interesting to see about wood. I asked around the crossbow forums and the general consensus is probably steer clear of it. I think its worth looking into for lower power bows maybe? My only crossbow is 260lb draw so I am not game to test anything in it but manufacturer spec bolts in deference to limb integrity and general safety.
05-16-2018 09:01 AM
bilmac There used to be simple 3 blade broadheads available that just glued directly onto a tapered wooden shaft. They didn't cost much compared to all the new whiz bang heads. They weren't a lot of $. BUT, you had to sharpen them yourself.

I would think that crossbow bolts could be somewhat practical to make yourself using lumberyard dowels.Since bolts are a lot shorter than arrows you shouldn't have to worry about spline too much. When I was a kid I used to make arrows out of dowels that I used to shoot with a 50# recurve bow. They used to work , but I wasn't a good enough shot to be very discerning.
05-16-2018 06:24 AM
sixtus
Quote:
Originally Posted by ajole View Post


You MUST be talking the pistol length bolts...the full length bolts run $4 or more, and they NEVER drop that low in my AO.
Thanks ajole, I thought so. I surf the North american crossbow forums and have never seen bolts as cheap as $1.50. $4 plus the other bits and pieces not to mention broadheads is significant.

On another subject I don't think home made broadheads will be easy for crossbows. Apparently traditional or two edge designs tend to plane at crossbow velocities, hence why crossbows use their 3 or 4 blade designs etc.

I think all told a case for crossbows can be made as long as the shooter

Chooses the lower/mid power models to preserve limbs, wear and tear on other parts, and the bolts themselves.
Has a decent supply of these consumables on hand.
or has a traditional style with the skills to repair or remake parts or the bow completely.
Ability to buy or make enough of the most consumable of all spares,aka bolts
Considers it for intermittent use alongside something more practical like a firearm.

At the end of the day its just not as tough as a gun, aka metal wearing parts using a chemical reaction in a metal chamber and a disposable projectile. It uses a lot of soft, pliable or elastic items which are going to break faster than metal and also expects its projectiles to be recoverable.
05-16-2018 05:48 AM
bilmac Yes you loose a lot of arrows or bolts. But where I live/hunt there is also lots of rock, so you also break lots of equipment as well. Even trees or wire fences destroy projectiles. I have hit trees dead on and COULD NOT get the broadhead back. I've bent arrows hitting fences.
05-16-2018 05:40 AM
bilmac Yes, you loos
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