Survivalist Forum - Reply to Topic
Survivalist Forum

Advertise Here

Go Back   Survivalist Forum > > >
Articles Classifieds Donations Gallery Groups Links Store Survival Files


Notices

Disaster Preparedness General Discussion Anything Disaster Preparedness or Survival Related

Advertise Here
Thread: Local map radius? Bug in/out scenarios Reply to Thread
Title:
  
Message:
Post Icons
You may choose an icon for your message from the following list:
 

Register Now

In order to be able to post messages on the Survivalist Forum forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name, your email address and other required details in the form below.
User Name:
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.
Password:
Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself.
Email Address:
Gender
Insurance
Please select your insurance company (Optional)

Log-in

Human Verification

In order to verify that you are a human and not a spam bot, please enter the answer into the following box below based on the instructions contained in the graphic.



Additional Options
Miscellaneous Options

Topic Review (Newest First)
09-10-2019 02:30 PM
infntryman86
mgrs

Quote:
Originally Posted by ioda006 View Post
Can you help me understand how MGRS could help? I realize it will help give accurate coordinates, but what sort of use cases would that have?
MGRS is much more accurate and easy to relay across a radio to other members of your team. It also is easier to write down and if you miss a digit you are not that far off. Example an 8 digit grid will still get you within the same area as a 10 digit will
09-10-2019 10:53 AM
Mule Skinner
Quote:
Originally Posted by firewallsrus View Post
I study maps ... the way other people read books ...

--Me too.--
09-09-2019 11:11 PM
firewallsrus I study maps and aerial photos the way other people read books and watch movies.

In the cased of the smallest area map. I suggest 1 mile radius. It would be good to have a very accurate map of this area, but you'll have much of the map in memory if you are regularly walking the area and studying the details of this map and google aerial photos of the area with the following in mind:

If I was one or two takers, what route am I likely to take through the neighborhood? (This should be done for all directions. You should be thinking in terms of what a stranger would see and how they would interpret their view.

If I was part of a hungry hoard coming in from the nearest population center, what would be my likely approach path and direction?

In both cases, are there common paths or choke points where your surveillance resources can be best deployed? You can't predict everything, but you can study the map and photos and make some good guesses.

Where would a stranger likely set up to watch your place? What steps can you take to be notified in such case or perhaps offer concealment that appears to be cover, but is easily shot through to give them a false sense of security?

Finally, what are as many low-key bug out paths as I can find for whatever means of travel might be available?
09-09-2019 05:54 PM
Mule Skinner I have a DeLorme "Atlas & Gazetteer" of my state.
It shows county roads and water features (rivers and lakes).
Even city streets show there, but are too dense to be useful.

Using country roads, one could pretty much cross this entire state
without going through a city, which I regard as valuable.
09-09-2019 05:20 PM
ioda006
Quote:
Originally Posted by Astronomy View Post

Useful for things like plotting caches, linkup/rendezvous points, tiny water sources, calls for fire, un-surveyed landing zones, booby traps (or snare lines), intersection/resection problems, flash-to-bang plots, gun lines, defensive sectors of fire, dead drops, positions, vehicular routes, obstacles, etc. And above all, the easy means to convey very precise and standardized locations to other people (using a scalable set of numbers). Verbally, written, or transmitted. Quick to very accurately plot using a protractor on a paper map. It takes a lot of the "swag" out of plotting non Base 10 map scales or the need to plot hours/minutes/seconds... when precision on the ground is quickly needed.
Wow what a thorough response! Thank you so much. I've been learning about MGRS a little and how to use it - the basics seem pretty straightforward and I can now see why this is useful.
09-09-2019 02:49 PM
Astronomy Other than the practiced familiarity that many of us have from employing that grid scale while serving in the military, it's the overall ease of using a Base-10 metric grid (configured in meters/kilometers). Just quick to plot things to the nearest meter, ten meters, or decimal fractions of kilometers.

This also translates well when using optic mildots (and the mil-relation formula) for range/object-size estimations. And for interoperability with the rest of the metric world. For instance, in the military, you employ a pace count measured in meters... not yards. A common frame of reference useful when talking to (or coordinating with) folks outside of the USA. As well, military maps provide certain tactical details/features not depicted on USGS civilian topo maps, their contour lines are more accurately depicted (critical for cross country/brush busting route planning across slopes), the map datum is more precise (derived from better projections), and the entire package allows more accurately triangulated plots from the printed grid lines (usually 1km x 1km... and printed uniformly equidistant from both N-S & E-W). Every grid square is printed the same size... it's like playing the board game "Battleship".

Useful for things like plotting caches, linkup/rendezvous points, tiny water sources, calls for fire, un-surveyed landing zones, booby traps (or trap/snare lines), intersection/resection problems, flash-to-bang plots, gun lines, defensive sectors of fire, dead drops, positions, vehicular routes, obstacles, etc. And above all, the easy means to convey very precise and standardized locations to other people (using a scalable set of numbers). Verbally, written, or transmitted. Quick to very accurately plot using a protractor on a paper map. It takes a lot of the "swag" out of plotting non Base 10 map scales or the need to plot hours/minutes/seconds... when precision on the ground is quickly needed.

Think of a military MGRS map as being a mildly "accurized" version of a standard rifle. It's an accurate, fast, and precise tool for folks operating under stress, operating in the dark, and needing to employ a single measuring system across a wide variety of pursuits (electronic communications, cross-country movement, weapons/personnel dispositions, logistical support, intelligence sharing).

Outside of aviation/nautical navigation scenarios, the MGRS system offers speedy convenience and accuracy to ground users who don't really need Lat/Long plots. Although military maps support those plots as well.

For recreational hiking, it probably only rarely matters. But in an uncertain world, the military metric mapping system provides a common/handy mapping frame of reference for mutually supporting actions among folks dispersed far & wide. Which is why militaries use it. In 2002 Afghanistan, I routinely used Soviet military maps of that area. The only accurate ones available for many places in that landscape. Guess what? Russkie metric scales and easily employed by our guys. Different map colors and military symbology, but the map scales were familiar and readily usable by our forces. Thank God.

Truth be told, not many people (outside of sailors, aviators, surveyors, and some outdoors adventurers) are familiar or comfortable with plotting lines of Longitude & Latitude. But untold millions of government workers & military veterans have been exposed to at least the rudiments of the military's grid reference system. So it's something you could probably train/refresh more people to use in a hurry.

After decades of constant military metric navigation practice, I still tend to think in terms of meters/kilometers... not yards/miles. Whether hiking or driving.
09-09-2019 01:05 AM
ioda006
Quote:
Originally Posted by infntryman86 View Post
I use 1/100k and 1/50k maps I had made from Mytopo custom maps. They will do MGRS and in any style so I chose military style maps since that is what i am used to. Though if you are in an urban area topo maps become cluttered and less useful.
Can you help me understand how MGRS could help? I realize it will help give accurate coordinates, but what sort of use cases would that have?
09-06-2019 04:07 PM
infntryman86 They are centered on my property I have to bug out too
09-06-2019 03:20 AM
Sorry-no-clues
Quote:
Originally Posted by infntryman86 View Post
I use 1/100k and 1/50k maps I had made from Mytopo custom maps.
Are they centred on your house?
09-05-2019 03:52 PM
infntryman86 I use 1/100k and 1/50k maps I had made from Mytopo custom maps. They will do MGRS and in any style so I chose military style maps since that is what i am used to. Though if you are in an urban area topo maps become cluttered and less useful.
09-05-2019 02:31 PM
Astronomy In answer to the question of desired radius of coverage...

For my local area, I have a laminated color wall map at 1:10,000 scale, with overlayed grids. 11 x 8.5 kilometer rectangle. This gives me a detailed depiction of a roughly three miles radius around my place. Half of that rectangular map is centered on my immediate locale; the other half covers an adjacent area of interest.

That full-color 1:10,000 map depicts everything around me within long distance rifle shot, to include potential observation points useful to intruders. It depicts expected avenues of approach by outsiders. It also covers friendly rally points, local security patrol routes, and water features.

I built that custom map on mytopo.com. Cannot recommend them enough. Lots of mapping options/formats/scales to choose from, affordable, and very quick delivery.

Most everything else I use is in 1:50,000 or 1:25/24,000 stretching across my state and adjacent states. USGS topos or military Military Grid Reference System (MGRS) maps. As well as the usual collection of hiking & trail maps for recreational trips.

I spent the majority of a long military career primarily utilizing 1:50,000 maps for small unit patrolling and employment of indirect fire or aviation assets (emplacing mortars, calling for fires, CAS, E&E corridors, Landing Zones, Drop Zones, etc.). It's a good general purpose scale and will suffice for most things. Which is why it's the default US military scale for mobile units. Obviously, 1:25,000 MGRS or 1:24,000 government topo maps are preferred when available, but add to the inventory of physical maps that must be stocked or carried.

The single most KISS useful "analog" hard copy map system is the Delorme Atlas & Gazetteer for your state. A map booklet you can purchase on-line or at damn near any book store, big box store, gas station, or truck stop. Obviously focused on vehicular travel, but still useful detail for foot movement scenarios. Any combination of the map pages can be pulled and then taped together to provide a single larger map, ready for lamination and pocket carry.

Buy that booklet and you have your entire state's landscape in one handy package. Then get something that depicts your immediate area of concern (for a few surrounding miles) with greater detail.

Again, 1:10,000 provides great local detail along with a still usefully wide-enough area of coverage. If you require close-up detail for a few surrounding blocks, streets, or acreage... Google Earth is your printable friend.

(Edit to add: US military city maps are typically 1:12,550 scale, sometimes up to 1:5,000. Which gives you an idea of map scales considered practically useful for military operations in urban/suburban environments.)
09-05-2019 01:35 PM
Flofli [QUOTE=Prepper_Ed; I don't know of any way to print the Trulia maps so you will probably need to draw boundaries on your maps around "safe" and "no-go" zones. Knowing which areas are "rough" and which are relatively safe seems useful info to have during the apocalypse.[/QUOTE]

I am not familiar with those maps so I don't know if you can find the same information on a laptop, but when I can't print something on my laptop I just click the print screen button on the keyboard then past into paint or a word or publisher document. You have to crop to the area you want but it should work. Good idea on marking the more crime prone areas.
09-05-2019 01:29 PM
Flofli One thing you might want to consider is tracing paper. You can trace the map you have of your local area and add in any details like roads that they missed. Tracing paper is delicate but you can photocopy it so it lasts longer and you can laminate your photocopy. You can add any notes you want to your photocopy so it is personalized to what you need. You can even trace the map with just a specific detail like water sources. If you have AAA you can order free maps online from city maps to world maps.
Something to consider, my dad used to have laminated map and every hurricane season he would get a wet erase marker and mark out the paths of the storms. After hurricane season he could wipe it down and use it again the following year. If you laminate a map you can mark it with different details as needed for an at home map where it will not get smudged or wet. From online: Wet erase markers can be used on acetate, film or non-porous laminated surfaces, wet erase markers contain water-soluble dyes and can only be removed with a damp tissue or cloth.
09-05-2019 01:27 PM
Prepper_Ed
Quote:
Originally Posted by Camelfilter View Post
Excellent post! Reminder to all, no use having any tool you donít know how to use.

...

Also, didnít notice if mentioned in the thread yet or not, Delorme Atlas & Gazetteerís by state are SUPER HANDY! Enough scale to get along pretty well, if need be, and handier than getting out the quad maps/give coverage if you donít have a particular quad. Far easier region reckoning, albeit less detailed.

...
I love the Delorme Atlases. They are especially useful for planning alternate travel routes such as along railroad lines or power line rights of way.
09-05-2019 01:24 PM
Prepper_Ed
Quote:
Originally Posted by ioda006 View Post
This resonates with me a lot. Any other examples? Particularly for bug-in, what else would you expect to need to know about? I'm trying to figure out how many 'zoom' levels to go for (probably make multiple maps). Like one could be the 1mi radius with satellite view, street, and building details.

I'm thinking other ones for what is walkable or bikeable in a day (round trip) would be like a 10mi radius. Scavenging? Recon? I'm not sure what else.

And then maybe a 20mi for bug out?
Go to the Trulia real estate app on iPhone. I'm not sure the Trulia website has the information you will want. Type in your town and select "Local Info" and then "Crime". It will give you a map of recent criminal activity in your area. I was surprised when I checked out my town and surrounding towns in that some neighborhoods I had expected to have a high crime rate didn't and others I assumed safe weren't so safe.

You have to use your judgement. Shopping malls and strip malls tend to show up as having high crime rates but it's mostly property crimes like shoplifting. The same is true with Universities.

I don't know of any way to print the Trulia maps so you will probably need to draw boundaries on your maps around "safe" and "no-go" zones. Knowing which areas are "rough" and which are relatively safe seems useful info to have during the apocalypse.
09-05-2019 12:37 PM
Camelfilter
Quote:
Originally Posted by Herd Sniper View Post
One of the things that you might want to consider is taking some classes that involve land navigation. You can learn land navigation (land nav) when you take classes for hiking, camping and so on. You can also get basic information from military training books on the subject as well.

https://www.itstactical.com/skillcom...erence-system/

https://www.armystudyguide.com/conte...ng/index.shtml

https://www.fema.gov/124000-scale-us...quadrangle-map

The 1:24,000 maps give you a much clearer reference of what is on the ground locally too. The 1:50,000 maps are more for use with "the larger or general picture of an overall area." I've used both and it is a good idea to have both on hand. The 1:24,000 lets you pinpoint individual buildings, which are represented by black squares, on the map.

Once you get used to using the 1:24,000 maps they're a real lifesaver because they let you move around objects that you want to avoid. There are also special glasses that you can use with these maps to get a 3-D effect of what to expect on the land before you move over it. The trouble is that the 1:24,000 cover less ground than the 1:50,000 maps cover so there is a trade-off.

Any maps that you need to carry and use should probably be laminated to protect it from the weather. Over in Nam we had to laminate all our maps or they would melt from all the humidity in the air over there and that didn't include the downpours from the rains either. That country was hard on everything.

If you get a set of maps, you'll also need a decent compass as well. You don't have to have the most expensive model compass out there. A decent little middle-of-the-road compass will serve you well. A GPS system would also be nice too. Again, it should be something that you can re-charge the batteries on or switch out with a second set of batteries that have been re-charging. I would get a GPS that uses normal, everyday batteries instead of some special type of battery that you can only purchase in Outer Mongolia once a year during the Locust Blossom Harvest or some other nonsense.

One other thing: Learn to believe in yourself and your gear. While you may have your doubts, if you use common sense, believe in yourself and properly use your gear you should do okay. Good luck.

By the way, some of the information I gave out is for other people who read this and might need the most basic of data to help them along. I don't think that you, the OP, may need the land navigation courses yourself but a new person to getting around without Google Map might need to learn the basics all the way back to the beginning.

You can also buy U.S. Topographic Maps here: https://www.usgs.gov/media/audio/whe...pographic-maps
Excellent post! Reminder to all, no use having any tool you don’t know how to use.

Other options to buy quad maps are at public offices. BLM, USFS, State Forest Service, or even County / Town Forest Service (in some instances). OP doesn’t note location, but may be handy for others if they have such offices nearby.

Also, didn’t notice if mentioned in the thread yet or not, Delorme Atlas & Gazetteer’s by state are SUPER HANDY! Enough scale to get along pretty well, if need be, and handier than getting out the quad maps/give coverage if you don’t have a particular quad. Far easier region reckoning, albeit less detailed.

In our case, no need for super detailed urban street mapping, thank goodness! However, if that were to change, easiest for us would be google map printouts (as mentioned).

Edit: @Snyper708 posted up on Delorme Atlas in post #3, so my post is just another note on how great of a combination resource they are...
09-05-2019 11:41 AM
Snyper708
Quote:
Originally Posted by NW GUY View Post
WELL.. I didn't think I would have to add "so be sure and print them up before you need them."

Thought that part was fairly obvious.
Nothing can be assumed on the internet.

Also, most can't print things larger that 8.5 X 11, so it's just as easy to buy maps already printed to scale.
09-05-2019 08:30 AM
Herd Sniper One of the things that you might want to consider is taking some classes that involve land navigation. You can learn land navigation (land nav) when you take classes for hiking, camping and so on. You can also get basic information from military training books on the subject as well.

https://www.itstactical.com/skillcom...erence-system/

https://www.armystudyguide.com/conte...ng/index.shtml

https://www.fema.gov/124000-scale-us...quadrangle-map

The 1:24,000 maps give you a much clearer reference of what is on the ground locally too. The 1:50,000 maps are more for use with "the larger or general picture of an overall area." I've used both and it is a good idea to have both on hand. The 1:24,000 lets you pinpoint individual buildings, which are represented by black squares, on the map.

Once you get used to using the 1:24,000 maps they're a real lifesaver because they let you move around objects that you want to avoid. There are also special glasses that you can use with these maps to get a 3-D effect of what to expect on the land before you move over it. The trouble is that the 1:24,000 cover less ground than the 1:50,000 maps cover so there is a trade-off.

Any maps that you need to carry and use should probably be laminated to protect it from the weather. Over in Nam we had to laminate all our maps or they would melt from all the humidity in the air over there and that didn't include the downpours from the rains either. That country was hard on everything.

If you get a set of maps, you'll also need a decent compass as well. You don't have to have the most expensive model compass out there. A decent little middle-of-the-road compass will serve you well. A GPS system would also be nice too. Again, it should be something that you can re-charge the batteries on or switch out with a second set of batteries that have been re-charging. I would get a GPS that uses normal, everyday batteries instead of some special type of battery that you can only purchase in Outer Mongolia once a year during the Locust Blossom Harvest or some other nonsense.

One other thing: Learn to believe in yourself and your gear. While you may have your doubts, if you use common sense, believe in yourself and properly use your gear you should do okay. Good luck.

By the way, some of the information I gave out is for other people who read this and might need the most basic of data to help them along. I don't think that you, the OP, may need the land navigation courses yourself but a new person to getting around without Google Map might need to learn the basics all the way back to the beginning.

You can also buy U.S. Topographic Maps here: https://www.usgs.gov/media/audio/whe...pographic-maps
09-05-2019 08:27 AM
NW GUY
Quote:
Originally Posted by Snyper708 View Post
All that is great as long as everything is working as it should, but I believe the OP wants printed maps that don't require more than eyes to read them.
WELL.. I didn't think I would have to add "so be sure and print them up before you need them."

Thought that part was fairly obvious.
09-05-2019 07:25 AM
Sorry-no-clues If you're making maps, rather than just buying commercially-available ones, then you decide what's important to you and use the symbols that make sense to you, while keeping the meaning pretty vague to anyone who might pick it up if you drop it. You're probably going to have to use some sort of line for roads and railroads, but there's no reason why you shouldn't put in coloured dots for different resources/obstacles etc. And never put your home location on the map.

If you're using commercial maps, again, never mark them, so it's just a sheet of printed paper to anyone who picks it up or takes it off your dead body before they go looking for your family and stores. Don't put your home location in the centre of the map you draw or print out, that's the most obvious place for someone to look for where you came from.

Practice practice practice, so now before things go wrong you can use Google maps and the Google Earth photos when you check out places. Then the images are stored in your brain, rather than in a binder or on your phone.

The radius you need depends on what you're travelling to, and you will work that out from your estimate of the threats. A ten mile radius hike is a long way out and back in a day, if you're carrying lots of stuff and avoiding the herd. Work out why you're bugging out, and where you're going to be once you think you've arrived. For most situations I'm going to bug in, and I know the area round by house for at least a five mile radius, without using a map. Cycling, jogging and hiking will do this for you; driving is less useful. My bug-out route will only be used if there's a nuclear/chemical attack on London and the wind's in the right (wrong) direction. There is only one direction we can go, without running out of land or ending up in a conurbation. The route is a nightmare because of the linear obstacles I will have to cross, impossible in a vehicle without using bridges (choke points) and extremely difficult on foot. I will probably be safe if we go 50 miles, 20 miles wouldn't be enough if the wind changes.

The best maps are the ones in your head. Next best is commercial paper, unmarked. After that photograph them on a password-protected phone, so long as you can re-charge the device.
This thread has more than 20 replies. Click here to review the whole thread.

Posting Rules
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 06:29 PM.


Powered by vBulletin®
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Search Engine Optimisation provided by DragonByte SEO (Lite) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2019 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.
vBulletin Security provided by vBSecurity v2.2.2 (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2019 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.
Copyright © Kevin Felts 2006 - 2015,
Green theme by http://www.themesbydesign.net