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Thread: CPAP machines as ventilators Reply to Thread
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Topic Review (Newest First)
04-06-2020 09:49 PM
country_boy
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Old Coach View Post
Um, just for the record, mine is set for 11 inches, and it can go a good deal higher than that. Without digging out the documentation, I'm going to say 18 inches.

And please; we're talking battlefield medicine here. Field expedients, if you must. Throw the rulebooks made by and for bureaucrats and lawyers aside. Tell us how to make it work, not why some code says we shouldn't.

Example: Tent the patient, and run a length of 4" dryer vent hose to a window-mounted exhaust fan. You can use just trash bags and duct tape in a pinch, although clear plastic would be nicer. I've got yards of suction hose from deceased shop-vacs here that would work even better.

Think, man, think!
Ok, laws of physics are suspended. But are you sure your unit goes to 18 inches- that’s 45 cm? Are you sure you got the conversion right? According the the info I was given, that’s outside the range of normal CPAP approved by FDA, and more than double the standard maximum pressure (20 cm). What model is it, so I can get the info corrected.

For medical use ( in a clinic or better) you could inject oxygen, but it’s virtually impossible to sustain that sort of gas flow- you’d need 2+ full side industrial tanks a day of O2.
04-04-2020 04:16 PM
The Old Coach
Quote:
Originally Posted by country_boy View Post
Problem is a CPAP maxes out at 10” of water, so a higher water column than this is going to add lbackpressure to the lungs. And 10” isn’t going to get you good filtering , even with a huge diffuser ( which would also increase back pressure.

Would a P100/n-95 filter be an option? Yes, but the NIOSH certification measures performance at 35mm (1.5”), which is below typical CPAP pressures.

The hazard of CPAPs in a airborne. Pandemic was recognized over a decade ago. We’ve had a waver in AL to reduce the EMS standard of care in such cases. It’s not so much for the EMTs protection, but a CPAP could contaminate the entire compartment, including the insides of cabinets, it’s not impossible the unit would be out of service for hours, and many of the medical supplies would have to be trashed.
Um, just for the record, mine is set for 11 inches, and it can go a good deal higher than that. Without digging out the documentation, I'm going to say 18 inches.

And please; we're talking battlefield medicine here. Field expedients, if you must. Throw the rulebooks made by and for bureaucrats and lawyers aside. Tell us how to make it work, not why some code says we shouldn't.

Example: Tent the patient, and run a length of 4" dryer vent hose to a window-mounted exhaust fan. You can use just trash bags and duct tape in a pinch, although clear plastic would be nicer. I've got yards of suction hose from deceased shop-vacs here that would work even better.

Think, man, think!
04-04-2020 12:32 PM
Central Scrutinizer
Quote:
Originally Posted by country_boy View Post
Problem is a CPAP maxes out at 10” of water, so a higher water column than this is going to add lbackpressure to the lungs. And 10” isn’t going to get you good filtering , even with a huge diffuser ( which would also increase back pressure.

Would a P100/n-95 filter be an option? Yes, but the NIOSH certification measures performance at 35mm (1.5”), which is below typical CPAP pressures.

The hazard of CPAPs in a airborne. Pandemic was recognized over a decade ago. We’ve had a waver in AL to reduce the EMS standard of care in such cases. It’s not so much for the EMTs protection, but a CPAP could contaminate the entire compartment, including the insides of cabinets, it’s not impossible the unit would be out of service for hours, and many of the medical supplies would have to be trashed.

The solution would be to rig up (duct tape and cardboard Apollo 13 style) an exhaust fan/filter. One way would be a small room sized HEPA filter unit with the inlet attached to one end of a flexible exhaust tubing and the other end fitted at the mask on its outlet. There does not need to be great suction, simply ample airflow to the HEPA filter. If the filter could be safely placed outside a window, all the better. You are looking for negative air pressure. At the end, the HEPA filter etc. needs to be disposed as bio waste.
04-04-2020 12:21 PM
country_boy
Quote:
Originally Posted by neiowa View Post
from your link "U.S. pandemic planning envisioned the possibility of using CPAP machines for milder cases of COVID-19 when ventilators are in short supply. But evidence suggests that the machines, commonly used by people with sleep apnea, can aerosolize and possibly spread the virus."

Here's hint CDC - the chicom flu is aerosolized and that's how it SPREADS. Duct tape, 2" flex hose to CPAP mask and to a bucket of water.
Problem is a CPAP maxes out at 10” of water, so a higher water column than this is going to add lbackpressure to the lungs. And 10” isn’t going to get you good filtering , even with a huge diffuser ( which would also increase back pressure.

Would a P100/n-95 filter be an option? Yes, but the NIOSH certification measures performance at 35mm (1.5”), which is below typical CPAP pressures.

The hazard of CPAPs in a airborne. Pandemic was recognized over a decade ago. We’ve had a waver in AL to reduce the EMS standard of care in such cases. It’s not so much for the EMTs protection, but a CPAP could contaminate the entire compartment, including the insides of cabinets, it’s not impossible the unit would be out of service for hours, and many of the medical supplies would have to be trashed.
04-04-2020 03:08 AM
The Old Coach I will certainly use my CPAP if I get sick*. I live alone, so there's nobody to spread it to, and secondly I have to use it or I never get any decent sleep.

If one could negative-pressure the sickroom, that ought to ease the aerosol issue. Come summer I do that anyway, at night, in lieu of air conditioning.

* Plan A is to not catch it. I think I can manage that. In ten years of being here I have never had even a cold. Avoiding sick people is the key.
04-03-2020 11:57 PM
Medic535
Quote:
Originally Posted by jetgraphics View Post
I recall when I had a bad bout of the flu, about fifteen years ago, I relied on my CPAP machine. It helped overcome some of the breathing difficulty and improved sleep.

This raises the question - can old / used CPAP machines be used as substitute ventilators. Granted, they do not have O2 hook ups, but the positive pressure should help during this emergency.
Could it be used?

in theory yes, but you'd have to somehow attach a p100/hepa filter on the air input to be effective
04-03-2020 10:32 PM
IamZeke The point being is while it may help you it can infect others that are living with you.

If you live alone like I do then I plan to use it if I catch the disease and there is a ventilator shortage.

For those who dislike it pushing crud from your nose down your through when you have nasal drainage, then consider removing the water tank. It will help to dry your sinuses out.

For those with basic congestion then consider a drop of spearmint oil in your water tank. Be minimalist with this trick. Just one drop.

As for additional O2, every nasal mask I've seen in decades has a tubing port.
04-03-2020 10:20 PM
adobewalls I "they" were looking at using BIPAP machines.

From cpaphealthissues.com


There is concern about CPAP's
Why CPAP Machine isn't a Good Ventilator Alternative

Quote:
The American Society of Anesthesiologists issued guidance on Feb. 23 discouraging CPAP use in COVID-19 patients — advice largely informed by experience with the SARS epidemic in 2003. Studies dating to 2003 suggest that such devices can pump viruses into the air, potentially increasing the spread of a contagious disease.
04-03-2020 10:09 PM
neiowa
Quote:
Originally Posted by dmas View Post
from your link "U.S. pandemic planning envisioned the possibility of using CPAP machines for milder cases of COVID-19 when ventilators are in short supply. But evidence suggests that the machines, commonly used by people with sleep apnea, can aerosolize and possibly spread the virus."

Here's hint CDC - the chicom flu is aerosolized and that's how it SPREADS. Duct tape, 2" flex hose to CPAP mask and to a bucket of water.
04-03-2020 09:47 PM
dmas https://khn.org/news/covid19-ventila...d-coronavirus/

Cpap spread virus at nursing home.
03-29-2020 11:21 PM
Raymond My CPAP nasal mask does have two small plugged ports that an O2 tube can be connected into.

But, a big problem with CPAPs is that the exhaust air is pumped out into the open without any HEPA filtering of your viral refuse. This creates an immediate contagious breathing hazard for anyone else in the house whether they wear a mask or not.
03-29-2020 05:41 PM
txprep
Quote:
Originally Posted by jetgraphics View Post
I recall when I had a bad bout of the flu, about fifteen years ago, I relied on my CPAP machine. It helped overcome some of the breathing difficulty and improved sleep.

This raises the question - can old / used CPAP machines be used as substitute ventilators. Granted, they do not have O2 hook ups, but the positive pressure should help during this emergency.
there are cases that will need a little more help breathing but dont need a full on ventilator. A CPAP would definitely help and can be used to free up ventilators for severe cases.
03-28-2020 08:55 PM
BCseacow83 Not a substitute but may offer assistance above breathing unassisted room air.
03-28-2020 03:51 PM
Central Scrutinizer I have a Respironics Virtuoso® LX N.AM Smart CPAP System Model number R622093L.

It has what appears to be an RS232 port on it (DB9 connector). Is there a terminal program or any way or need to go into that port? This is the model without a smart card, yet there is a memory % shown.
03-27-2020 05:22 PM
bunkerbuster
Quote:
Originally Posted by jetgraphics View Post
I recall when I had a bad bout of the flu, about fifteen years ago, I relied on my CPAP machine. It helped overcome some of the breathing difficulty and improved sleep.

This raises the question - can old / used CPAP machines be used as substitute ventilators. Granted, they do not have O2 hook ups, but the positive pressure should help during this emergency.
If you have an 02 set-up, with a little DIY, you can adapt one to fit into a CPAP.
03-27-2020 04:30 PM
Cuteandfuzzybunnies We will run out of hospital staff before we run out of ventila.
03-27-2020 04:29 PM
country_boy
Quote:
Originally Posted by jetgraphics View Post
I recall when I had a bad bout of the flu, about fifteen years ago, I relied on my CPAP machine. It helped overcome some of the breathing difficulty and improved sleep.

This raises the question - can old / used CPAP machines be used as substitute ventilators. Granted, they do not have O2 hook ups, but the positive pressure should help during this emergency.
Substitute sure isn’t the right word, but they would work in a niche area, maybe mostly if you don’t have access to oxygen. A ventilator is capable of supplying 1) supplying oxygen 2) at pressure, and 3) mechanically breathing for you. CPAP only does 1 of these, at a lower pressure.
03-27-2020 04:24 PM
donswin
Quote:
Originally Posted by Outpost75 View Post
Key is keeping the unit CLEAN. I use one of the ozone generator devices daily. I won't say the brand, but my primary care doc recommended it and Tricare paid for it. Safety tip, remove the elastic headgear from the mask before placing it in the unit, otherwise the ozone will disintegrate the elastic.
This is excellent advice!!

I got sloppy with my CPAP a couple of years ago and got Legionella. I nearly died. The only airborne moisture I could tell the CDC was my CPAP. They said it probably wasn't the cause, but I use a dental device for apnea now. I'm not taking any chances.
03-27-2020 12:09 PM
Outpost75
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chuckleberry View Post
`

I won't use mine if I have a head cold anymore. I've done it twice & both times got pneumonia & other crud in my lungs. The 1st time I didn't really put it together, but after the 2nd time I realized that the machine was pushing the crud in my sinuses down into my lungs. I've had a few head colds since & I just slept in the recliner at 45 degree or higher incline. I don't get as good of sleep, but I also don't get pneumonia. If you don't have any sinus congestion, then it may help, but if you do have a stuffed up head, I don't recommend it.

.
Key is keeping the unit CLEAN. I use one of the ozone generator devices daily. I won't say the brand, but my primary care doc recommended it and Tricare paid for it. Safety tip, remove the elastic headgear from the mask before placing it in the unit, otherwise the ozone will disintegrate the elastic.
03-26-2020 02:09 PM
Chuckleberry `

I won't use mine if I have a head cold anymore. I've done it twice & both times got pneumonia & other crud in my lungs. The 1st time I didn't really put it together, but after the 2nd time I realized that the machine was pushing the crud in my sinuses down into my lungs. I've had a few head colds since & I just slept in the recliner at 45 degree or higher incline. I don't get as good of sleep, but I also don't get pneumonia. If you don't have any sinus congestion, then it may help, but if you do have a stuffed up head, I don't recommend it.

.
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