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Thread: [Self Defense] Handguns vs OC spray: which is more effective? Reply to Thread
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Topic Review (Newest First)
08-03-2019 10:54 AM
Jim from 28DaysLater Apples to oranges.

There's stuff you need a gun for, and stuff you need OC for.

A person responding to a rowdy kid in a hs, for instance, shouldn't go straight to a handgun. And I think we all know that. Tbqh, the stuff you need a less lethal response for is a lot more common than the stuff you need a handgun for.

A handgun tends to be a lot more to carry than a pepper spray-- if you're going to concealed carry, you've still got room in your hip pocket for at least a small pepper spray. The full size or compact pistol on your belt or in your waistband likely didn't take up a space you needed for a pepper spray.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nightvisionary View Post
One occassion I remember well where OC didn't work was on a schizophrenic with known high level martial arts training. An entire riot sized canister of OC the size of a small fire extinguisher was expended on the guy with no effects. We ended up taken the guy down requiring several fist and elbow strikes. I ended up getting a pretty bad chemical burn from having to kneel in a puddle of OC for several minutes.
As for this guy, you might as well just say that life isn't perfect. There are examples of people not getting killed by stuff like cyanide, or of living without cancer to a very old age despite awful smoking and drinking habits. Just because it's possible that there's a weird person out there like that doesn't mean that it's not poisonous stuff (or that you shouldn't generally, logically be carrying a pepper spray).

Then on the handgun side, there are even plenty of stories of the same thing. We've all heard it-- lots of 9mm or 22LR rounds in somebody, and the guy was still walking around. Guess it was more true of the days before hollow points. I've even seen a video recently from the northeast, though, where a big fat woman was shot with 9mm, and she was standing around on her feet waiting for help from the ambulance. Looked unaffected. Think I might have seen an example of the same thing with a cop more recently. Think it was South Africa.

I was just reading a book where the Rangers were shooting a guy in the guts with Win Mag in Afghanistan, and the guy wouldn't fall down. They hit him three times in the torso, in the pelvis, and in the leg. They didn't recover a body.

Just remembering a horrible story from Germany. A teenaged enrichment Arab used a pepper spray on a girl while he was raping her in the subway. I don't remember if it was her pepper spray or not.

Similarly, there was a fight on a train between two Laqeshas in NYC recently, where one used a pepper spray, and was killed by the other one, who slashed her neck with a tiny knife. IIRC, the one with the pepper spray was the one who was more in the right-- but it still just goes to show you that you don't know who's carrying a pepper spray. You could be getting into a bad argument with a ghetto person over something trivial, and just as you're thinking it's time to get out your pepper spray, they're thinking the same thing. And there are criminals out there using pepper spray for stuff.

Also, the stats on gun grabs are not that good for cops. It's something like two thirds of cops who have their guns grabbed end up having them used against them.

The point is just that, whether you're choosing a pepper spray or a handgun, you shouldn't get overconfident. It's a step in the right direction, but it's not the final word on what's going to happen when you get into an encounter.

You've got to have a pepper spray or a handgun, but you've also got to fight well with them, and be assessing and reacting to what's going on.
08-03-2019 03:26 AM
Tactical Lever
Quote:
Originally Posted by Herd Sniper View Post
If you come at me in any aggressive way, shape or form then you are implying the use of force and I will counter your use of force with my use of force: a pistol. If you do not attack me, then I will be nice to you as well. Cross over the line and start to use the threat of violence and all bets are off. A raised voice does not constitute violence. Moving towards me and trying to hit me does put you in danger. I have seen pepper spray fail too many times for me to feel comfortable using it in a bad situation.
Quote:
Originally Posted by dontbuypotteryfromme View Post
Yeah. But you omitted the post I was responding to.

And then applied my post to an unrelated post.

Which is out of context and lying.

Quote:
lie
verb (2)


\ ˈlī

\

lied; lying\ ˈlī-​iŋ

\


Definition of lie (Entry 3 of 6)



intransitive verb


1 : to make an untrue statement with intent to deceive
//She was lying when she said she didn't break the vase.

//He lied about his past experience.


2 : to create a false or misleading impression
//Statistics sometimes lie.

//The mirror never lies.


transitive verb


: to bring about by telling lies
//He lied his way out of trouble.



lie
noun (2)


\ ˈlī

\


Definition of lie (Entry 4 of 6)




1a : an assertion of something known or believed by the speaker or writer to be untrue with intent to deceive
//He told a lie to avoid punishment.

b : an untrue or inaccurate statement that may or may not be believed true by the speaker or writer
//the lies we tell ourselves to feel better

//historical records containing numerous lies


2 : something that misleads or deceives
//His show of remorse was a lie.


3 : a charge of lying (see lie entry 3)
Why don't you point out the thing that I said that fits the above description? You can't.

Your above statement is just a baseless ad hominem; commonly used when liberals can't stand that their limited view of the world is challenged.

You don't have the foggiest idea why Herd Sniper made that statement. But you couldn't wait to jump in with your vast mall cop experience, which I'm sure is quite applicable, if you can equate catching someone trying to take a bottle of shampoo, with a random unprovoked attack on the street. You can't be that obtuse over the difference in dynamics without faking it.

You also just interjected your poorly formed idea on how it would continue, with no external assistance from the very poster you were quoting. All because you got a little chub for obfuscating the topic.

It's like playing chess with a pigeon. You know it's just going to crap on the board and strut around like it won. Amazing, really.
08-01-2019 10:17 PM
Unknownsld I have to say that anyone who say's pepper spray or a taser is more effective is WRONG! I've been hit with Law Enforcement pepper spray and tasers. From experience, I can tell you that people can still fight after being hit with both. A pistol is more effective.
07-30-2019 08:34 PM
Old fart
Quote:
Originally Posted by Colt View Post
When you're trying to arrest someone for a suspended license and they're refusing to get out of the car lethal force is probably not the best option. Climbing in to the vehicle and dragging them out is also not the safest thing to do for anyone involved. A quick spritz of fogger into the vehicle empties it pretty fast though.

As for gel, there are a lot of situations were physical force is justified, but not lethal force. These same situations usually mean that the situation is safe enough to get your OC out. These are more common for some people than others. There's situations that are "Maintain control and get this situation stopped before it turns violent and someone gets seriously hurt." and ones that are "Oh ****, I better stop him before he kills me."

And the "oh **** that's a lot of rounds" and they're still shooting, and then you see the tracers coming from multiple points going in multiple directions as you come around the corner... and you have to do something right now because there's innocent civilians in the immediate area in imminent danger of death/serious injury, and knowing all you have are your duty weapon, back-up, and a shotgun... and the bag of extra loaded mags for your duty weapon everyone laughed at and the b'zillions of LE headed your way

Fortunately, most often/almost always, simply treating people with respect, listening, not taking anything personally, liberal use of please and thank you, and building on previously established relationships/partnerships/community policing/reputation to deescalate and resolve things with no force at all (unless you count officer presence) Proactive work in the neighborhoods now reduces the number and magnitude of uses of force later
07-30-2019 06:43 PM
Colt
Quote:
Originally Posted by recklessdriver View Post
Eh its I rather use lethal
When you're trying to arrest someone for a suspended license and they're refusing to get out of the car lethal force is probably not the best option. Climbing in to the vehicle and dragging them out is also not the safest thing to do for anyone involved. A quick spritz of fogger into the vehicle empties it pretty fast though.

As for gel, there are a lot of situations were physical force is justified, but not lethal force. These same situations usually mean that the situation is safe enough to get your OC out. These are more common for some people than others. There's situations that are "Maintain control and get this situation stopped before it turns violent and someone gets seriously hurt." and ones that are "Oh ****, I better stop him before he kills me."
07-30-2019 06:20 PM
recklessdriver
Quote:
Originally Posted by Colt View Post
I carry gel on me. Foggers are a not unless you're clearing a confined space. I've got a can of fogger available, but it's for things like people who refuse to get out of a car/closet/bathroom/etc. Not for defense out in the open.
Eh its I rather use lethal
07-30-2019 03:19 PM
Colt
Quote:
Originally Posted by InfScout View Post
We were taking down a guy one night and a Sergeant sprayed the guy. Hit us more than the suspect. I found out later he'd done that more than once.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Old fart View Post
Perfume

Better than being TAZED by an excited rookie that forgets one key thing


Had a good friend of mine tase her partner. The two of them never stop bringing it up. He actually gained respect for her though. Everyone else in the crowd just stood around while he was wrestling with the guy not sure what to do and this tiny girl cop stepped right up, said **** it, fired the taser, missed, fired her other cartridge, hit him AND the subject and tased them both. Then she just kept tasing them both to keep them both down while she grabbed her partner's taser. Then she dual wielded tasers, fired her partner's taser into just the subject while she had them both stopped so she could tase just the subject and her partner could get him cuffed.

I wish I had been there. Apparently it was epic badass.
07-30-2019 03:11 PM
Colt
Quote:
Originally Posted by recklessdriver View Post
As someone who is level 1 certified and ran a TIF. OC spray blows and no way would I want to deploy it outdoors. One shift in the wind and you got it back in your face.

Carry lethal and kill them.
I carry gel on me. Foggers are a not unless you're clearing a confined space. I've got a can of fogger available, but it's for things like people who refuse to get out of a car/closet/bathroom/etc. Not for defense out in the open.
07-30-2019 03:07 PM
Colt
Quote:
Originally Posted by Old fart View Post
In the scenario Forged presents (quoted below), the ************ is in MY HOUSE, which means I don't have to be reactive. I can and will go on the offensive with everything I've got... no hesitation... no quarter... with my size, gender, and age, I don't have the luxury of *****footing around.





*Assuming* my dog didn't get him first, shove and shoot. It would *probably* take more than just shoving (as in, I'm going to do immediate, intense violence) long enough to end the threat or so I could draw one of 2 EDC and use it to end the threat. Concept is the same... there are other lethal options Whoever it was would have to contend with both my dog and me And maybe the cat

BTW, my dog likes pepper spray, the cat not so much. Not the first dog I have had that does

PS: I managed to miss this whole thread until today... ack... sorry
In the house it's straight to gun. That crosses a line that gets a full force response immediately. Much different from a traffic stop or a guy approaching you in a walmart parking lot.
07-30-2019 01:06 PM
Old fart Perfume

Better than being TAZED by an excited rookie that forgets one key thing
07-30-2019 10:03 AM
InfScout We were taking down a guy one night and a Sergeant sprayed the guy. Hit us more than the suspect. I found out later he'd done that more than once.
07-30-2019 06:34 AM
dontbuypotteryfromme
Quote:
Originally Posted by recklessdriver View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by dontbuypotteryfromme View Post
Yeah. But you can mess up more easily with OC than with a gun.

Squirt the wrong guy not the end of the world. Probably get whatever your version of a bond is.

That means you can act way lower on the threat scale.

Drunk uncle Jimmy pats your wife's bum and she kills him would put a strain on family dinners.

She squirts him message sent.
We had the riot oc sprayer. It looked like a fire extinguisher with a duck wide mouth at the end. Could saturate a person or group in seconds. Would of made for a horrible day
I have worked with a few cops who got exited and pepper sprayed everyone in the room.

We were in this huge gang fight and half the cops went down because of it.
07-30-2019 06:32 AM
dontbuypotteryfromme
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tactical Lever View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by dontbuypotteryfromme View Post
Ok. This is a direct quote from you. But taken out of context it becomes a lie.

If I quote someone I am replying to their point. Not the OPs point. Otherwise I would either quote the OP. Or, as I did in this case. Make another post without quoting someone.

This is pretty basic. Sorry you get confused.
I took your whole quote and didn't split it up, and your quote was from this thread. You are confused about what "out of context" is and what is lying.

You are being disingenuous, and trying to twist the intent of the thread to suit your views. This isn't about your relative's bums or whatever crap you're trying to spin.
Yeah. But you omitted the post I was responding to.

And then applied my post to an unrelated post.

Which is out of context and lying.
07-30-2019 04:49 AM
Old fart
Quote:
Originally Posted by recklessdriver View Post
We had the riot oc sprayer. It looked like a fire extinguisher with a duck wide mouth at the end. Could saturate a person or group in seconds. Would of made for a horrible day

Party pack!
07-30-2019 04:40 AM
recklessdriver
Quote:
Originally Posted by dontbuypotteryfromme View Post
Yeah. But you can mess up more easily with OC than with a gun.

Squirt the wrong guy not the end of the world. Probably get whatever your version of a bond is.

That means you can act way lower on the threat scale.

Drunk uncle Jimmy pats your wife's bum and she kills him would put a strain on family dinners.

She squirts him message sent.
We had the riot oc sprayer. It looked like a fire extinguisher with a duck wide mouth at the end. Could saturate a person or group in seconds. Would of made for a horrible day
07-30-2019 04:38 AM
recklessdriver As someone who is level 1 certified and ran a TIF. OC spray blows and no way would I want to deploy it outdoors. One shift in the wind and you got it back in your face.

Carry lethal and kill them.
07-30-2019 04:27 AM
Old fart
Quote:
Originally Posted by Colt View Post
Also keep in mind that less lethal weapons are weapons that come into play almost always when you are seizing the initiative. That's easy to do as a cop as you can cut them off in the very early stages when you first identify them as a threat and keep them in a disadvantageous position. You don't have to be entirely reactive when you're in a position where you're granted legal control of the situation (traffic stops and other detainments, etc).

Not so easy to do as a civilian dealing with savvy criminals that know how to keep it just short of justification for you until they've exploited use of force laws, etiquette, and your good nature and worked their way in to a strong advantageous position from which to start the actual attack.
In the scenario Forged presents (quoted below), the ************ is in MY HOUSE, which means I don't have to be reactive. I can and will go on the offensive with everything I've got... no hesitation... no quarter... with my size, gender, and age, I don't have the luxury of *****footing around.


Quote:
Originally Posted by ForgedInTheFlame View Post
If you were caught off guard (by this I mean, you didn't have time to draw a weapon before the bad guy engaged you) in a home self defense scenario and the guy pepper sprayed you point blank and tried to subdue you, would you be able to turn the tables on him? Would he incapacitate you and possibly kill you?

How would you respond?

[emoji848]

Sent from my Note 8 using Tapatalk

*Assuming* my dog didn't get him first, shove and shoot. It would *probably* take more than just shoving (as in, I'm going to do immediate, intense violence) long enough to end the threat or so I could draw one of 2 EDC and use it to end the threat. Concept is the same... there are other lethal options Whoever it was would have to contend with both my dog and me And maybe the cat

BTW, my dog likes pepper spray, the cat not so much. Not the first dog I have had that does

PS: I managed to miss this whole thread until today... ack... sorry
07-30-2019 03:27 AM
Old fart
Quote:
Originally Posted by Exarmyguy View Post
Defence sprays are just another thing to have. I have 5 cans for when Im up at the cabin. It would be neat if there was a dispenser you could mount on your gun rails . Give you a better option choice.
Quote:
Originally Posted by hawk55732 View Post
I wonder why that's never been done.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ForgedInTheFlame View Post
That's actually a great idea LOL.



Sent from my Note 8 using Tapatalk

Lots of this stuff out there for a long time. Here's a very small sample


Rail mounted pepper spray
https://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/...-pepper-spray/


Pepper spray shot gun shells
https://www.firequest.com/G12-019.html


Stuff used in Ferguson (disclaimer about source
https://www.theverge.com/2014/8/21/6...usons-chemical
07-30-2019 02:56 AM
Old fart
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nightvisionary View Post
I personally prefer nunchakus for urban CCW. They can be more lethal than a handgun, non lethal effectiveness like OC, less liability, it nevers run out of ammo and can be used more effectively against multiple attackers.
^ ^ ^ ^ ^
THANKS
(system won't let me thank you at your post


I like mine, too
They were also good in lieu of an ASP on the duty belt They fit inside cargo pocket, sleeve, or shirt, depending on which uniform, saving room on the belt for something else I had to have, like my radio

But I still want a gun (with light and laser) Easier to obtain a *deescalation* because most people in the US have no clue about nunchucks, but they do understand what the red (or green) dot on the chest means. And I'd much rather deal with an active shooter with a gun because of the longer reach for either suppressive fire or engagement.
07-30-2019 02:46 AM
Old fart
Quote:
Originally Posted by puttster View Post
When you think you might get sucker-punched or raped, spray is better. I certainly would rather my wife had spray than a handgun. She (and I) would be properly hesitant to try to KILL someone for suspicious and aggressive behavior - a second or two hesitation that would not occur if your defense was a non-lethal spray.

As for a gun being a surer man-stopper... you can't be serious. Even trained policemen only hit 10-20% of the time and the percent of man stoppers is even smaller. Subtract from that the civilian's inexperience and hesitancy to kill and the chance of actually stopping the perps with a gun is in the single digits. Stupid to try, when you can use pepper spray.
As a female and retired LEO and retired soldier, I want the gun if someone is going to try to rape me... because I AM NOT GOING TO GET RAPED if I can at all prevent it, and that means I WILL DO WHATEVER IS NECESSARY, TO INCLUDE USE OF ANY/ALL AVAILABLE DEADLY FORCE. If I get raped by someone with a deadly disease, he has just murdered me, even if it takes me years to die of the disease/complications/drug side effects. So, if defending against rape, I am defending my life. If I end up with some incurable/deadly disease, I can't in good conscience have sex with anyone ever again, either I don't know of too many people that would be happy about that particular outcome.

Spray isn't effective enough, fast enough, if at all, to prevent or stop attacks from motivated men. Adrenaline and testosterone are a powerful combination... kind of like hormonal PCP. Add alcohol and/or drugs, which makes people less susceptible to pain, then it's hormonal PCP on roids. And... surprise... accuracy with spray, especially in the hand of an untrained, unpracticed person is often negligible/totally ineffective/blown away in the wind/ends up all over self or ground...

A long time ago, rape/attempted rape statistics said 97 percent of women with a gun did not get raped, while 97 percent of women did get raped. Hmmmmmmmm. Even if the statistics were manipulated to be as dramatic as possible, the point is still there.
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