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Thread: Shooting with no sights. Reply to Thread
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Topic Review (Newest First)
10-04-2019 08:41 AM
dadsbear Laser snap-cap lets you do countless 1st shot practice without using sights. Also lets you use your carry piece - the more muscle memory, the better.
06-30-2019 09:58 AM
HappyinID
Quote:
Originally Posted by AK103K View Post
On a side note about Munden, he was also a good gunsmith and a really nice guy. I dealt with him, and his wife on the phone back in the late 90's, when I picked up one of the early Cimmaron SAA's when they first came out. Had it about a week and the trigger bound up and wanst working properly.

Dont remember exactly how I found out to send it to him, Im thinking they had an ad in the SGN or Gun List, but I called, and talked to his wife. She said send it to them and he would look at it.

I did, he called me back, said what he thought the problem was, and what it would cost, which was less than a hundred dollars. Apparently, this was a pretty common thing for him at the time with the Italian SAA clones, and he was getting a lot of work from them.

I sent him a check and about two weeks later the gun was back. There was a note that it was a little more than he thought when he got it open, and he needed a couple more bucks for the additional part.

The trigger work he did on the gun was top rate too.
Bob worked on a Colt SAA I owned and you're right, a nice man who did excellent work.

But then I had Eddie Janis do a full job on another SAA for me. Wow! It feels like he left the mainspring out..... I still have no idea how that gun goes bang every time.

.
06-30-2019 09:10 AM
AK103K
Quote:
Originally Posted by Disturbed70 View Post

It's one thing to argue whether unsighted fire is a valid method. It's a completely different thing to argue that because a guy like Bob Munden could do what he did, that it is likely for others to do it.
I agree, most would probably have difficulty doing what Munden and a few others do/did, but on the other side of that, many if not most, dont normally put in the effort to be even a quarter as good.

The more time and effort you put into anything, the more you benefit and improve.

What Ive generally found is, and this is about most things, you get the most flack from people who dont/cant do something, and usually havent even bothered to try to do it.

This is all an ongoing learning curve. You can choose to learn, or you can choose to pass, its all up to you what you want out of things.

I always fall back on the old "Bruce Lee School of Thinking" and try to learn as much as I can, about as much as I can, and then take from that, the parts that are useful and work best for me. You dont get caught up in following a specific discipline and waste time and effort on things or parts that may not really apply.


On a side note about Munden, he was also a good gunsmith and a really nice guy. I dealt with him, and his wife on the phone back in the late 90's, when I picked up one of the early Cimmaron SAA's when they first came out. Had it about a week and the trigger bound up and wanst working properly.

Dont remember exactly how I found out to send it to him, Im thinking they had an ad in the SGN or Gun List, but I called, and talked to his wife. She said send it to them and he would look at it.

I did, he called me back, said what he thought the problem was, and what it would cost, which was less than a hundred dollars. Apparently, this was a pretty common thing for him at the time with the Italian SAA clones, and he was getting a lot of work from them.

I sent him a check and about two weeks later the gun was back. There was a note that it was a little more than he thought when he got it open, and he needed a couple more bucks for the additional part.

The trigger work he did on the gun was top rate too.
06-30-2019 08:04 AM
Disturbed70
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tactical Lever View Post
Well sure he was. But he trained that way. No training, or practice, and he would have shot like a regular slob.

His excellence isn't really a reason to not take a lesson from the way he did it.
There were a couple of tests run on him, the most famous of which was an episode of Superhuman. The consensus from everyone that has actually looked at him is that he was, in fact, not even close to "normal," particularly in regards to his fast twitch muscles, or his hand/eye coordination.

Yes, practice had something to do with it, but in regards to shooting, he was far from a "regular slob" in terms of natural gifts. Much like you or I had no chance of ever playing in the NFL, regardless of how much practice we put in.

It's one thing to argue whether unsighted fire is a valid method. It's a completely different thing to argue that because a guy like Bob Munden could do what he did, that it is likely for others to do it.
06-30-2019 12:02 AM
NW GUY WAAAAYYYYY back when ammo was CHEAP (we used to buy 50s production French corrosive ball .45acp from Interarms in 50,000 round orders, DELIVERED for 3/4 of a CENT a round.)

Anyway there were a dozen of us who would shoot every weekend winter summer whatever because the ammo was cheap and berdan primed so who cared about brass. The ring leader of the group was our gunsmith, who shot his 1911 with no sights.

We would run the various courses that were popular waaayyy back when and he would always be int he top 5 regardless of the course or range unless we got out to 50yds and beyond. Then again he had over 100,000 rounds on that gun so he had a pretty good idea where it shot.

so, if you practice you can do pretty good without them.
Leatherslap speed drills 10 yards or less I never used sights and could always beat the folks who did on speed and score. .. but that is something I practiced to the tune of at least 25-30,000 rounds a year just doing the quick draw drills against a timer. Do the practice and within reasonable distance you don't need sights. Your skill level will determine what is reasonable.
06-29-2019 10:55 PM
Tactical Lever
Quote:
Originally Posted by Disturbed70 View Post
Bob Munden was also a freak of nature.
Well sure he was. But he trained that way. No training, or practice, and he would have shot like a regular slob.

His excellence isn't really a reason to not take a lesson from the way he did it.
06-29-2019 09:51 PM
Disturbed70
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tactical Lever View Post
Nobody was faster than Bob Munden, and at reasonable distances he probably drew and fired 2x faster than half of us, and beat the other half for slow fire accuracy while holding that speed! And pretty sure I'm understating his abilities by quite a bit.

I liked the way he put it when describing his instinct shooting. It wasn't "not aiming"; his brain computed where the gun has to be to hit the target and he just did it. Took practice, and he used a full size, full weight .45 Colt, not some pot metal quick draw gun.

Some mention aiming when it's a big pistol, only. By my figuring, it'll take most people more time to line up the big guns sights, due to the more noticeable variation when the sights aren't perfectly lined up due to the longer sight radius.
Bob Munden was also a freak of nature.
06-29-2019 07:06 PM
Tactical Lever Nobody was faster than Bob Munden, and at reasonable distances he probably drew and fired 2x faster than half of us, and beat the other half for slow fire accuracy while holding that speed! And pretty sure I'm understating his abilities by quite a bit.

I liked the way he put it when describing his instinct shooting. It wasn't "not aiming"; his brain computed where the gun has to be to hit the target and he just did it. Took practice, and he used a full size, full weight .45 Colt, not some pot metal quick draw gun.

Some mention aiming when it's a big pistol, only. By my figuring, it'll take most people more time to line up the big guns sights, due to the more noticeable variation when the sights aren't perfectly lined up due to the longer sight radius.
06-29-2019 04:02 PM
PatrioticAmerican If you shoot enough, and not just talk about shooting, the sights kind of disappear anyway. Many smaller guns have worthless sights, so to shoot them requires....well, shooting them until proficient.
06-29-2019 11:04 AM
sarge912 I do 'point/instinctive' practice regularly and also encourage others to train that way as well. Hip shooting is usually reserved for 5 feet or less as part of weapon retention drills.
06-29-2019 07:07 AM
ROCK6
Quote:
Originally Posted by Israel Putnam View Post
Thousands of people with no “training” have put down thousands of bad guys.

Too many seem to picture themselves as operators and spend the time and money living out that fantasy.

What are these people “training” for?
The end times?
The total economic and societal breakdown of the nation/world?
Or a bad guy who breaks the back glass and is trying to get in?


Whatever, I’d rather spend my time and money learning something worthwhile like adding another restoration project to my garage or workbench...

Just another thread turned into some sort of asinine training, training, training bs fest.
That's a pretty myopic view. Sure, some (even here) get single-focused on firearms (however, this is a firearm sub-forum), but many here I think understand the balance necessary for a wide-range of survival be it short term disaster to the preparation of a more wide-scale SHTF where defending your self, family, or home may be a top priority.

While I don't think structured "training" is essential, it's a significant advantage if you're prioritized self-defense higher on your list. Some, like you, may not have assessed it as a big priority based on your location and situation...fine, but try to remember not everybody is wearing Israel Putnam's shoes.

I've trained for my career, a job after my career, and as a personal hobby to spend time with my son. I'm no operator, but the application, repetition, and key drills to improve on certain timed-skills are beneficial to me.

But you're right, if the SHTF does happen, there will be a lot of armed, untrained criminals out there killing lots of people. I prefer to be prepared for that type of scenario since all the other basics are covered...I've just seen too many bad people in this world to ignore the need for training and maintaining my skills/drills.

However, I do agree that many spend a lot of money on "stuff", but have little to no experience or training to use them properly or effectively, and it's not just about firearms.

ROCK6
06-29-2019 06:50 AM
ROCK6
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dusty Bones View Post
It’s just as important to know when you’re not in a gun fight when you got a gun. The gun holder better know HTH no gun use skills or the guns as useless as the sights if things get that close.
While my focus has always been on "situational awareness", there are times and situations where tight spaces, close proximity to others, hand/arm injury, etc. will (and have) impact your basic gun fighting skills and drills. My last job as an advisor put me in close proximity with a heightened "blue on green" threat warnings. My training included several scenarios of just that; not being able to draw my sidearm due to being seated in a vehicle, on a couch/chair, tight stairwells, small/crowded office rooms, strong arm pinned against a wall/door or injured, etc. None of the situations are ideal, but were a very viable threat vector for me. All my HTH and knife-use were to either incapacitate the threat or create enough distance to employ the handgun.

Again, balance is a good thing to practice if you carry a firearm for self-defense and that may include shooting from the hip at three feet, using a blade to create distance, or grappling techniques to immobilize or incapacitate a threat. I like grappling, but the problem becomes your narrowed focus. Creating space and distance allows you more options and a wider assessment of the threat along with visibility of exits or cover. Just saying that HTH shouldn't be more than a few seconds with the focus to immediately incapacitate or break contact/make space to either employ a more lethal means or exit the area/find cover.

Quote:
Originally Posted by AK103K View Post
Everyone should have some base in grappling, H2H, whatever you want to call it, and its been brought up before, and people dont seem to willing to want to talk about things like that, and things like retention techniques. Same goes for knives.

But, then again, this portion of the forum is about guns, so it usually seems that guns are the answer to all the problems.
Agreed on both accounts. Even if a gun is the best answer, it may not be accessible given some scenarios I trained on above. Just like many say they use their pistol to fight to their rifle, you may have to use your hands/feet, knife, or improvised weapon to fight your way to your handgun, even if it's just to create enough space to employ it.

ROCK6
06-28-2019 08:19 PM
AK103K
Quote:
Originally Posted by Israel Putnam View Post
Thousands of people with no “training” have put down thousands of bad guys.

Too many seem to picture themselves as operators and spend the time and money living out that fantasy.

What are these people “training” for?
The end times?
The total economic and societal breakdown of the nation/world?
Or a bad guy who breaks the back glass and is trying to get in?


Whatever, I’d rather spend my time and money learning something worthwhile like adding another restoration project to my garage or workbench...

Just another thread turned into some sort of asinine training, training, training bs fest.
Hey, whatever. I thought part of prepping was being somewhat prepared. If youre going to have a gun, might as well know how to use it.

But by all means, do what you want, spend your money on what you want. No skin off my ass.

I like to shoot, so working on things like this is just gravy. And its fun, and something is actually accomplished.
06-28-2019 08:02 PM
Israel Putnam Thousands of people with no “training” have put down thousands of bad guys.

Too many seem to picture themselves as operators and spend the time and money living out that fantasy.

What are these people “training” for?
The end times?
The total economic and societal breakdown of the nation/world?
Or a bad guy who breaks the back glass and is trying to get in?


Whatever, I’d rather spend my time and money learning something worthwhile like adding another restoration project to my garage or workbench...

Just another thread turned into some sort of asinine training, training, training bs fest.
06-28-2019 04:34 PM
AK103K
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dusty Bones View Post
It’s just as important to know when you’re not in a gun fight when you got a gun. The gun holder better know HTH no gun use skills or the guns as useless as the sights if things get that close.
Absolutely!

Everyone should have some base in grappling, H2H, whatever you want to call it, and its been brought up before, and people dont seem to willing to want to talk about things like that, and things like retention techniques. Same goes for knives.

But, then again, this portion of the forum is about guns, so it usually seems that guns are the answer to all the problems.

Being able to shoot in as many ways as you possibly can, and with confidence and skill, is important. Sights, no sights, close range, longer range, from retention, etc, its all a part of the whole. Just focusing on one aspect of things, leaves you a bit short, if you need to do something you dont work on in practice to know that you can, and try and make do with just what you know. Would you have been better off knowing more? I say yea, probably, but maybe others are comfortable not knowing.

Or maybe they just dont know what they dont know to begin with.
06-28-2019 03:42 PM
Dusty Bones
Quote:
Originally Posted by ROCK6 View Post
Just to add to your reply; training is constantly evolving with new TTPs and integrating technological advances. Old school is fine and what you learned 20 years ago may still suffice, but it can be pretty humbling when training with a quality instructor(s) on a dynamic range. While many of the basics remain the same, there are small actions and techniques that can make a big difference, both in accuracy, speed, and manipulations such as clearing a FTF/FTE, using various covers from various positions to maximize that cover, magazine changes, round counting, etc.

As I've said, iron sights (or optics) are great and even preferred...until you're too close to effectively use them. Reality and quality training will prove there are no ideal gun-fight scenarios.

ROCK6
It’s just as important to know when you’re not in a gun fight when you got a gun. The gun holder better know HTH no gun use skills or the guns as useless as the sights if things get that close.
06-28-2019 03:22 PM
AK103K
Quote:
Originally Posted by ROCK6 View Post
Just to add to your reply; training is constantly evolving with new TTPs and integrating technological advances. Old school is fine and what you learned 20 years ago may still suffice, but it can be pretty humbling when training with a quality instructor(s) on a dynamic range. While many of the basics remain the same, there are small actions and techniques that can make a big difference, both in accuracy, speed, and manipulations such as clearing a FTF/FTE, using various covers from various positions to maximize that cover, magazine changes, round counting, etc.

As I've said, iron sights (or optics) are great and even preferred...until you're too close to effectively use them. Reality and quality training will prove there are no ideal gun-fight scenarios.

ROCK6
Theres no doubt, a lot of the new things being taught are an improvement, and Im not contesting that at all. Im simply saying, there are things that were current 50-75 years ago, that are, or can still be, very relevant and handy to know, but they seem to have fallen by the wayside, for whatever reason. And I think a lot of that is simply people never being taught them, and not knowing about them.

I just think that those who have learned them in the past, have just a little more to draw from, than those who dont. They may have moved on too, but they still have the knowledge and experience too.

And of course, I would hope you try your best to continue to learn, as things evolve. This is an ongoing, life long thing, and not a goal.

One example where a number of techniques come into play, is moving offline as you shoot. Once you start moving offline, its difficult to hold that Isosceles stance thats so popular today. As you break off to the left, and continue to shoot off to your right and more behind as you go, you cant hold it at all, and tend to break into the old, one arm bullseye type stance of sorts.

Go the other way, off to the right, and you cant maintain it, and you end up morphing through a modified Weaver into a true Weaver.

Being able to just transition through things without thinking about it, is a major help, I think. Everything is a constant adaptation of a number of things, and/or parts of them.

Then again, many may be doing it, without knowing they actually are, or what they are in fact using.

Then you have those who have never done it, and think that the way they normally shoot, will work for everything. Why would they have to change?
06-28-2019 02:41 PM
ROCK6
Quote:
Originally Posted by AK103K View Post
I think the problem here is, many dont have a balance. They were taught one thing, and thats all they know. So anything else, cant possibly work. And if what you are doing, is not what they were taught, you cant possibly be right.
Just to add to your reply; training is constantly evolving with new TTPs and integrating technological advances. Old school is fine and what you learned 20 years ago may still suffice, but it can be pretty humbling when training with a quality instructor(s) on a dynamic range. While many of the basics remain the same, there are small actions and techniques that can make a big difference, both in accuracy, speed, and manipulations such as clearing a FTF/FTE, using various covers from various positions to maximize that cover, magazine changes, round counting, etc.

As I've said, iron sights (or optics) are great and even preferred...until you're too close to effectively use them. Reality and quality training will prove there are no ideal gun-fight scenarios.

ROCK6
06-27-2019 06:16 PM
Israel Putnam
Quote:
Originally Posted by AK103K View Post
I hear this a lot, and always have to ask, just where that is?

Ive lived all over, in cities, suburbs, and rural country, and
in each and every place, bad things happened to good, and not so good people.

Carrying a handgun every minute your awake, no matter where you are, is no different than carrying that pocket knife, Zippo and your house keys in your pockets.


The odds of needing it are probably pretty slim, but the odds of having it, if and when you "might" need it, are very good.
You obviously don’t live in a true preppier fortress with a moat, minefield, razor wire, steel shutters and anti-aircraft guns protecting the airspace above it.
06-27-2019 04:49 PM
AK103K
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Old Coach View Post
That said, my first defense is never to go anywhere where I might need a sidearm.
I hear this a lot, and always have to ask, just where that is?

Ive lived all over, in cities, suburbs, and rural country, and
in each and every place, bad things happened to good, and not so good people.

Carrying a handgun every minute your awake, no matter where you are, is no different than carrying that pocket knife, Zippo and your house keys in your pockets.


The odds of needing it are probably pretty slim, but the odds of having it, if and when you "might" need it, are very good.
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