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Thread: 20 hours to teach self defence. Reply to Thread
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Topic Review (Newest First)
08-24-2014 06:05 PM
Eyes-open-now
Quote:
Originally Posted by PapaWhiskyBravo View Post
I wouldn't say useless. 20 hours of practising a single strike would give an untrained person a weapon where they may not have had a weapon before.

I used to know a bloke who wasn't interested in any kind of martial arts what-so-ever. That was until someone tried to steal his bass guitar from outside a pub after a gig! He spoke to a mutual friend of ours who had done competitive Muay Thai and asked him to teach him something. The kick boxer taught him a sort of "Superman Elbow" where he would hop up and do an overhand elbow strike on the way down. Strange move to teach I thought at the time, but this little guy practised the technique heaps and became lightening fast with it. I saw him "whip out the Superman" once and put a dude down.... he didn't expect THAT ****!
Reading this post reminded me of a story that my late FIL, ex-Green Beret, shared with me. It seems that when my SIL was about twelve she came home from school and asked her daddy "What is the hardest way to hit?" Upon questioning the petite young girl he found out there was some kid at school picking on her, so her taught her a spinning backfist. They practiced in the yard for a while that night, and that was that. He never asked her if she had to use it, but given the temperament of my SIL, and the fact that he never heard anything about the bully any more, it's a pretty sure bet she put it to use.

Even a little time learning is better than none.
08-24-2014 06:21 AM
usmountains Unfortunately after all hell has broken loose, if there is any fighting the attacker will most likely have a weapon. It will be a life and death battle.

In haiti the mobs went around with knives and machettes. Trying to teach someone how to take on violent armed attackers, well its easier to show someone how to shoot a pistol in a short time. Shoot anything that attacks you.

Sadly, not all areas of the world allow firearms so it may be using whatever weapon you can obtain. Even sprays, bear spray, other versions of pepper spray, or blinding powders.

If its pure hand to hand, perhaps the attacker is just unexperienced then study blocks, nerve center punches and chops, front and back of neck hits, sternum, and any other disabling hits you have time to practice. For those life and death fights, learn neck breaks. No fight is easy and is extremely draining mentally and physically until you practice enough to build up endurance and effecient effective hits. You have to be extremely violent and use your head all the way till you win. It can go either way, but learn as much as you can and knowledge with some guts can go a long way.
08-23-2014 01:17 PM
Carlos_m1 OK - I gotta ask - why did you wait for the cops?
Seems to me that once the threat was eliminated/incapacitated you would be at much less risk to yourself by getting out of there than hoping his buddies didn't get there before the cops did.

As far as teaching self defense in 20 hrs, there is no question that it takes a lot more than 20 hrs to become proficient at anything - You can teach something in a few hours but it may take 2,000+ hrs to perfect it.

One doesn't need to know an entire martial art, one needs to know a few really good moves really well. (Look at Bruce Lee - most of what you see him do is 5 or 6 really well executed moves - His most famous being the flying kick.)

When you look at a College curriculum, the classes you take and how long you are in any one class you'll find that most classes are 40 hrs or less. So maybe you can't become an accountant with 40hrs of accounting but it'll give you a good overview about how the process works and the ability to keep a basic set of books.
08-21-2014 10:55 PM
Jaqhama
Quote:
Originally Posted by robthebank1 View Post
In the slightly more than 2 months since i first posted on this thread i had the unfortunate luck of being attacked twice. Once in washington dc (i dont mean taxes) and once in philly. In both cases the attacker had a knife and both were most likely untrained, using what i have learned and practiced the assailents were disarmed and pinned in under 2 minutes with a dislocated arm and a 20 minute wait for the police to arrive. Due to those attacks i've rededicated myself to actively advocating for self defense classes as well as started co-teaching them
One minute is an awfully long time, let alone under two.
Just saying.

Why were you targeted?
How did the accosting play out?
What approach technique did the two use?

How exactly did you disarm them, and what did they say to you and you to them?

This is all good, solid info that might help someone else here in the future.
08-21-2014 10:44 PM
robthebank1 In the slightly more than 2 months since i first posted on this thread i had the unfortunate luck of being attacked twice. Once in washington dc (i dont mean taxes) and once in philly. In both cases the attacker had a knife and both were most likely untrained, using what i have learned and practiced the assailents were disarmed and pinned in under 2 minutes with a dislocated arm and a 20 minute wait for the police to arrive. Due to those attacks i've rededicated myself to actively advocating for self defense classes as well as started co-teaching them
08-14-2014 05:00 AM
Survivalguy72
Quote:
Originally Posted by PapaWhiskyBravo View Post
Coming from another discussion i started wandering what techniques people would teach ordinary folks if they only had a very short time to do so. This thread is purely hypothetical and i have no plans to teach this way. For the record i personally believe no short course can properly teach someone to 'fight'. They can however give folks a solid foundation to build on and provide a degree of confidence which on its own can disfuse a situation before it becomes violent.

What self defence techniques would YOU teach if you only had 20 hours?
That is the key statement. People are naturally fighters/killers or they aren't. No one can teach anyone that in 20 hours.
08-14-2014 04:10 AM
Jaqhama
Quote:
Originally Posted by PapaWhiskyBravo View Post
Excellent point peguinman. Like fitness MA training needs to be kept up as the skills are perishable. Some arts more than others i think.

We've all read of examples of old boxers who although they havent trained in decades manage to punch out a burglar or young thug. I think thats because the moves in boxing are so simple that its hard to forget.

Arts more complicated like BJJ or FMA or aikido may perish faster as techniques are forgotten over time.

Its hard to forget a left jab though!
Everyone should practice boxing jabs and punches on a floor to ceiling bag a couple of times a week for at least 30 minutes, because it's just so damn good for hand speed and distancing and avoidance.
(For real punching power you need a heavy bag, but that is not essential for hand speed.)

For stick/baton training you should practice the 12 basic strikes of Arnis a couple of times a week as well.
Below is a good video that also shows the footwork and distancing.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=16myQqtAnJc

I don't like the stabs from the left so much, as my wrist isn't comfortable at that angle. It just doesn't feel right to me.
Note that whilst an eye stab would be the desired result, a stick jabbed into any part of the face is going to do some damage, so even if you missed the eye the stab could still be effective.
I have no problem with strikes from the left side.
I have used these striking techniques with an ASP to great effect, I have avoided the stabs because it's never 100% certain that an ASP won't close on you when stabbed against an object.
The best way to stab with an ASP is up close and personal, two handed, one hand on the handle and the other hand holding and directing the last section of the ASP onto the target.

It doesn't take long to master the basic Arnis strikes, even when learning from a video.
Cut some branches from a tree, de-bark them, suspend an old car tire from a rope on a tree for a striking target.
De-barked Privet makes great Arnis sticks.
Easy to peel/scrape the bark off when the branch is freshly cut. The exposed wood underneath dries to a nice whitish color.
08-14-2014 03:19 AM
PapaWhiskyBravo Excellent point peguinman. Like fitness MA training needs to be kept up as the skills are perishable. Some arts more than others i think.

We've all read of examples of old boxers who although they havent trained in decades manage to punch out a burglar or young thug. I think thats because the moves in boxing are so simple that its hard to forget.

Arts more complicated like BJJ or FMA or aikido may perish faster as techniques are forgotten over time.

Its hard to forget a left jab though!
08-13-2014 09:21 PM
penguinman000 I know I'm just repeating what others have said..but darnit I'm relaxing with a beer or 2 after taking care of some school work (who would've thought I would still be in school at 40...)

A 20 hour curriculum could teach SOME basics to novices. For those who train consistently they can offer all kinds of benefits. I remember the days before there were BJJ schools on every corner and everyone was using video tapes, books, and limited internet to practice on their buddies. We all learned quite a bit, not as much as we could've from a legit instructor but still learned quite a bit. However there are some limitations to this kind of training.

The issue I have with these kinds of courses is sustainment. Military combatives are a prime example. You send guys to a course for a week or two (maybe a month or 2 for some of the more advanced courses, if those are still around) and then they get sent back to the fleet. Often these same individuals have minimal to no practice after the course. Skill degrade over time without practice. This leads to a false sense of security on their part. They think because they have a cert/belt/whatever... they don't need to do anything else. If you are an individual who has a sustainment training plan then it works fine.

I remember Roy Harris (legit BJJ black belt) writing an article about knife defenses once. The guy used to be phenomenal at knife disarms (was into kung fu or escrima heavily as I recall before he hit the BJJ scene). He hadn't consistently practiced these moves over a few years despite training BJJ hard core. He was shocked when he went back to training how poorly he had retained muscle memory and was potentially injuring himself. The point being if a guy like Roy Harris, with decades of training (and a fraction of a gap in his practice comparatively speaking) gets chewed up, what do you think is going to happen to someone who is even less skilled/practiced when faced with some who has bad intentions?

Taking a one day/20 hour course that focuses on techniques without any follow on plan is a waste and potentially setting people up for failure IMHO. If the people attending the training actually follow up on their training then it's time well spent.

And none of this is a knock on people teaching seminars. They impart all kinds of knowledge that others may not get. Sustainment training is on the student, not the instructor.
08-13-2014 06:43 PM
Dragunov
Quote:
Originally Posted by skifast View Post
Me, no. Others, yes.
I never did Blackwater either. I turned them down flat. Money isn't worth your conscience.
08-13-2014 06:11 PM
Dragunov
Quote:
Originally Posted by PapaWhiskyBravo View Post
Coming from another discussion i started wandering what techniques people would teach ordinary folks if they only had a very short time to do so. This thread is purely hypothetical and i have no plans to teach this way. For the record i personally believe no short course can properly teach someone to 'fight'. They can however give folks a solid foundation to build on and provide a degree of confidence which on its own can disfuse a situation before it becomes violent.

What self defence techniques would YOU teach if you only had 20 hours?
20 hrs? not really doable. 56 hrs is doable. Up until two years ago, I was a combatives instructor for the DoD. I had to retire after a mild heart attack, otherwise I'd still be teaching.

A couple of things first:

First four hours, involved mindset training.
Every student, had to attend every class for eight hours, all seven days.
If you missed a class, or were late, you were dropped.
You had to practice on your own, after class (required).

My class focused on (in order):

Mindset and panic training.
Foot/hip movement, and placement.
Anatomy.
Working with your own bodies natural movements while training.
Knife maintenance.
Offensive knife handling.
Both live, and shadow training.

I did this long enough to get feedback from soldiers going to, and coming back from Kosovo, Iraq, and Afghanistan. Most of my students wound up going to Kosovo.

It was a very successful class. To this date, I haven't lost a single student to CQC combat. I still here from some of them once in a while. I keep in contact.

My class was in the MOS of certain soldiers, responsible for security. I had my own contract.

I was (still am) a student of Aikido for the last 25 years. I did a demo for the DoD in '02, and won my contract through process of elimination.

I taught every August, through September, usually after the soldiers went through their ANCOC/BNCOC classes, if they were in the army, or NG (rarely, NG). SAI(E)DA and COE classes, otherwise. I taught classes to certain soldiers, from most branches of the military, and a few other branches of the DoD.

Can it be done in a full week? Yes.
Can it be done in 20 hours? I don't think so, due to the logistics of the training.

If you cut out the offensive knife training, probably could be done in 40 hrs.

Quick and brutal. It had to be. Simply because this was pre-deployment training, and had to be quick, precise, and fresh on the mind.

It is not possible to train someone in the discipline of a form martial art in this amount of time.
08-13-2014 04:55 AM
Killzo I used to live with a martial art instructor and occasionally would train with him. Totalled perhaps 20-30 hours, so should be similar. He mostly taught various disciplines, most trad kong fu though (I think anyway).

I reckon 50% of what he got me to was physical conditioning of arms and legs by (gently) launching roundhouse kicks and various arm/elbow and palm strikes against small trees/poles to learn the basic strikes and toughen me up a bit.

Next 30% involved soft hits against a sparing partner. (more conditioning)

10% full contact against bags

10% learning counters to some common moves


While it didn't make me a good fighter by any means, by the end I could stand my own sparring against some of his casual students, take a hit from some of the advanced guys and still being able to launch a basic strike after without having to think about it.

However, I think the best part of that training method is that it taught me the forms to continue the conditioning on my own since I moved out, which I think is one of the most important parts of a non-continuous/once off training system.

Hope this was relevant enough
Killzo
06-24-2014 10:52 AM
skifast
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jaqhama View Post
You can minimize the extent to which you come across violence and nasty people by making lifestyle changes.
Move to a rural area, buy a house set off by itself. Preferably near a small village, rather than a large town. (One still needs to buy groceries at a store and such.)
Get a couple of big dogs that bark and will advertise to everyone that they don't want to be walking up your driveway unannounced.

Don't go to bars or places that serve alcohol.
Don't go into town at night at all, if you don't have to. Darkness makes thugs braver.
Be cool but polite to people you meet when out and about and don't even chit chat with them unless you really like them.
Pretty soon you'll just be the quiet guy who lives outside of town and keeps himself to himself.
My wife and I moved to a small rural village ourselves 2 years ago, and honestly it was the best thing we ever did.

(Okay, okay, I did have an issue with a loudmouth a few houses down the road, but after we had a quiet chat he hasn't given me so much as a dark look. Born and bred local redneck, thought he could intimidate the new guy from the city, didn't quite work out the way he was expecting. )

We live on the outskirts of the village, only lock the doors when we go to bed at night, often don't bother locking the vehicles at all. Robbery is unheard of here. The few instances of violence (I know the local cop) have been family type, domestic violence, not street crime.

We order a lot of our stuff off the Net, but can still drive 30 minutes to a large town if we need big department stores.

We don't interact with the locals much, which suits us perfectly.
Yep. Want to stay out of trouble? Don't go to stupid places and do stupid things with stupid people.
06-24-2014 10:49 AM
skifast
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jaqhama View Post
You guys used to run a course for Blackwater as well, yes?
Me, no. Others, yes.
06-23-2014 06:44 AM
Jaqhama
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hick View Post
Ah, i misread then. I thought he was pointing out the few deaths that occur in the ring.

I agree, a pro boxer or a pro MMA fighter has a much better chance of winning in a street fight against your run of the mill thug & being able to do so without killing the attacker.

Still. If the Klitschko brothers were suddenly jumped in some dark alley & they killed their attacker, I would not be screaming foul play just because they have more skills than your average person.

I in no way condone violence, I abhor violence. I would much much rather live in a happy hippy utopian world where we all get along & smoke weed & sing kumbaya to each other. Truly I would, sadly however this is not the nature of the true world. The world we actually live in is cold, its evil. Its filled with hate, violence and abuse. Its ran by elite tyrants who care little for the welfare of the masses and the belly is crawling with parasitic junkies who will slit your throat just to score their next fix.

In reality, this is a sad sad pathetic world we live in, yet I must live in it. I have no other choice than to live on this vile dirt ball we call earth or splatter my brains all over the wall (an option I have honestly contemplated more than once).

It is because I am forced to be here I keep myself protected. It is because the true nature of evil that I carry a firearm, that I keep myself fit, that I learn self defense.

I hate violence in all forms, yet I am not above using it against those whom would attempt to harm me & while I do not ever want to take another life. I will feel no remorse for doing so because if someone comes after me in any form I will consider it an attempt on mine.

This is also why I want to simply find a hole in the ground & crawl into it. I wrote off this world a long time ago. Simply put, I just wish to be left alone
You can minimize the extent to which you come across violence and nasty people by making lifestyle changes.
Move to a rural area, buy a house set off by itself. Preferably near a small village, rather than a large town. (One still needs to buy groceries at a store and such.)
Get a couple of big dogs that bark and will advertise to everyone that they don't want to be walking up your driveway unannounced.

Don't go to bars or places that serve alcohol.
Don't go into town at night at all, if you don't have to. Darkness makes thugs braver.
Be cool but polite to people you meet when out and about and don't even chit chat with them unless you really like them.
Pretty soon you'll just be the quiet guy who lives outside of town and keeps himself to himself.
My wife and I moved to a small rural village ourselves 2 years ago, and honestly it was the best thing we ever did.

(Okay, okay, I did have an issue with a loudmouth a few houses down the road, but after we had a quiet chat he hasn't given me so much as a dark look. Born and bred local redneck, thought he could intimidate the new guy from the city, didn't quite work out the way he was expecting. )

We live on the outskirts of the village, only lock the doors when we go to bed at night, often don't bother locking the vehicles at all. Robbery is unheard of here. The few instances of violence (I know the local cop) have been family type, domestic violence, not street crime.

We order a lot of our stuff off the Net, but can still drive 30 minutes to a large town if we need big department stores.

We don't interact with the locals much, which suits us perfectly.
06-23-2014 06:04 AM
Jaqhama
Quote:
Originally Posted by PapaWhiskyBravo View Post
Helluva world view you got there.

I'm more of a glass half full kind of guy myself. Considering the hundreds of thousands of total strangers i would have come in contact with throughout my life, only a couple have genuinely tried to kill me.
Those were the guys who got to know you then?
06-23-2014 05:06 AM
PapaWhiskyBravo Helluva world view you got there.

I'm more of a glass half full kind of guy myself. Considering the hundreds of thousands of total strangers i would have come in contact with throughout my life, only a couple have genuinely tried to kill me.
06-23-2014 01:30 AM
Hick
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jaqhama View Post
PWB means that a Boxer has a statistical advantage of beating the attacker because he's a trained boxer, as opposed to some average untrained citizen.
Ah, i misread then. I thought he was pointing out the few deaths that occur in the ring.

I agree, a pro boxer or a pro MMA fighter has a much better chance of winning in a street fight against your run of the mill thug & being able to do so without killing the attacker.

Still. If the Klitschko brothers were suddenly jumped in some dark alley & they killed their attacker, I would not be screaming foul play just because they have more skills than your average person.

I in no way condone violence, I abhor violence. I would much much rather live in a happy hippy utopian world where we all get along & smoke weed & sing kumbaya to each other. Truly I would, sadly however this is not the nature of the true world. The world we actually live in is cold, its evil. Its filled with hate, violence and abuse. Its ran by elite tyrants who care little for the welfare of the masses and the belly is crawling with parasitic junkies who will slit your throat just to score their next fix.

In reality, this is a sad sad pathetic world we live in, yet I must live in it. I have no other choice than to live on this vile dirt ball we call earth or splatter my brains all over the wall (an option I have honestly contemplated more than once).

It is because I am forced to be here I keep myself protected. It is because the true nature of evil that I carry a firearm, that I keep myself fit, that I learn self defense.

I hate violence in all forms, yet I am not above using it against those whom would attempt to harm me & while I do not ever want to take another life. I will feel no remorse for doing so because if someone comes after me in any form I will consider it an attempt on mine.

This is also why I want to simply find a hole in the ground & crawl into it. I wrote off this world a long time ago. Simply put, I just wish to be left alone
06-22-2014 05:21 AM
Jaqhama
Quote:
Originally Posted by skifast View Post
CQD, it is a fighting system used by Navy SEALS. It is a simple attacking system.

In Northeast Ohio, ATG Worldwide teaches in in 16 hours. The next class is scheduled for next weekend. I will be helping teach the course.

www.myatgworldwide.com

In Colorado, CQD Denver teaches the system.

http://www.cqddenver.com/
You guys used to run a course for Blackwater as well, yes?
06-22-2014 04:45 AM
Jaqhama
Quote:
Originally Posted by dontbuypotteryfromme View Post
No the drivers had an issue from memory.
Yeah, it wasn't about the money...like you I seem to recall many cab drivers saying something about a sealed cab somehow alienating the passengers.

Bloody stupid logic there...if I was driving a taxi I'd insist on a sealed, secure cab.

Buses should have sealed cabs also.

Why would anyone not want to be safer and more secure...don't they want to go home to their families in one piece?

The lack of logic amongst the general citizenry never fails to amaze me.
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