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Thread: Well pump, expansion tank and Cycle Stop Valve "review" Reply to Thread
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Topic Review (Newest First)
10-07-2019 08:17 AM
Valveman Another 3-4 years has past. That makes a total of 27 years the Cycle Stop Valve has been making people's pumps last longer and deliver strong constant pressure to the showers. If you are the kind of person who doesn't want to know anything and just lets the local pump man do whatever he thinks best, then you are not a candidate for a Cycle Stop Valve. If you are the kind of person who thinks they already know everything because your pump or your uncles pump has lasted 21 years, then you are also not a candidate for a CSV. The only people who appreciate Cycle Stop Valves are those that take the time to educate themselves on how pumps really work.

Those that do not understand how things works will say stuff like, "So it has been running continuously the whole time?" NO, no, and no. And if you don't know how it works you shouldn't act like you do.

And just so you don't have to hear it from the "guy who hawked selling the gadget", hear are a few hundred reviews from people who have a CSV and actually know how they work.

https://cyclestopvalves.com/pages/reviews
10-02-2019 11:21 PM
cujet
Quote:
Originally Posted by mattb4 View Post
so it has been running continuously the entire time?
:d: :d: :d: :d: :d:
09-30-2019 10:09 PM
MattB4
Quote:
Originally Posted by cujet View Post
I'm still using the CSV and 2HP, 3 stage, Goulds well pump. It's working as described. The pump simply does not cycle on and off all the time. Still very happy with the results.
So it has been running continuously the entire time?
09-30-2019 09:33 PM
cujet
Quote:
Originally Posted by Woolval52 View Post
It's been 4 years since you posted this. Do you still feel the CSV is good? How long has it been in your system? My pressure tank failed and I came across CSV when doing research. I'm ready to install one here at my house. I love the idea of steady water pressure instead of the fluctuations. Thanks
I'm still using the CSV and 2HP, 3 stage, Goulds well pump. It's working as described. The pump simply does not cycle on and off all the time. Still very happy with the results.
09-30-2019 07:20 AM
MattB4 It would be interesting to see honest follow up from people that bought this idea years ago and put it into practice versus the person that hawked selling the gadget. My simple water pump and pressure tank from 21 years ago is still functioning. Does mean the water pressure cycles from 30-50psi.
09-30-2019 06:32 AM
Woolval52
Quote:
Originally Posted by akcooper9 View Post
I have a CSV on my well as well. They are the best thing one can do for a well pump (IMHO)
It's been 4 years since you posted this. Do you still feel the CSV is good? How long has it been in your system? My pressure tank failed and I came across CSV when doing research. I'm ready to install one here at my house. I love the idea of steady water pressure instead of the fluctuations. Thanks
07-15-2016 11:30 AM
Valveman
Quote:
Originally Posted by MattB4 View Post
I have found that it is always more difficult to deal with people that are reasonably smart and do understand some basics. The inventor of this valve is of this camp. He knows enough to concoct what seems like a valid scientific explanation but all the time knowing it is being used to confuse those that does not have his level of intelligence. The key is to understand to look for contradictions and claims that can not be proven but rely on popular ideas.

To put it simply, extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof.
To put it even more simply, extraordinary criticism of a patented, long established, well-proven, well-respected product requires extraordinary XXXXXXX. I have always found it more difficult to deal with people that are reasonably smart and think they understand some basics, but do not. MattB4 is of this camp. He maybe able to nail some boards together and build a house, but his incorrect assumptions of how pumps work are blinding him to knowledge that could be useful. He doesn’t even know enough to concoct a valid argument. The key is to understand and look for extraordinary criticism and snide remarks like “talk to the hand”. This proves that he relies on popular misconceptions instead of proven realities.

I didn’t start this argument and I hate to have to say things like that, but I will defend myself blow for blow when I know I am right. I get a kick out of explaining this to people who “think” they already understand all there is to know about pumps. I love to see the light bulb over their heads light up when they finally understand, which many times in usually not until they actually see it work.

Quote:
Originally Posted by 6556 View Post
I am not convinced that it's the frequency of cycles or some sort of an electrolysis action.

I suspect that it's the failure of the seal and drying out / breakdown of the grease, main culprit time and a damp environment.
You are correct. It is not cycling that causes ball bearings to go out. It is running dry after the seal gives way and the grease gets hard. I have a lot of larger pumps like this in my manufacturing facility. They have grease certs for the bearings. If I remember to grease them every 6 months or so, they last forever. Sealed bearings suck, to put it bluntly.

Cycling will damage the centrifugal start switch, capacitor, pressure switch, check valves, and is hard on the motor windings. Cycling can also break pump shafts, strip splines, and impellers.

Quote:
Originally Posted by 6556 View Post
And speaking of pump failures.. every automotive water pump I replaced failed due to bearings/seals. Guess they use cheap bearings too.

Just had a thought, I wonder if one of those magical impellers was used in an automotive water pump.. someone could make a lot of money!
Impellers in automotive water pumps are also centrifugal impellers and work the same way. And no the impellers do not wear because they are suspended on a shaft and do not touch anything as they spin. But the bearings have the same problem as any sealed bearing. Never seen a grease cert for an automotive water pump bearing. But if they had grease certs, they would not get to sell so many water pumps.

Automotive water pumps would also use less power if the flow were restricted. But the flow rate is fixed by the restriction of the engine, so it doesn’t vary.

Quote:
Originally Posted by cujet View Post
I missed where anyone claimed that start up current is reduced. If I did so, or even implied that, I absolutely apologize. Clearly, my 2HP well pump's start up current is unchanged by the CSV.

What has changed is the number of times the pump starts during use. This is a big benefit when operating "off grid" on generator power, like I do from time to time.
Thanks again cujet! But now I have to make another claim that Matt is going to think is absurd. A CSV can reduce starting current almost the same as any soft starter. If the CSV is in the almost closed position when the pump starts, the starting amps are greatly reduced. In your case the CSV1A is a normally open valve and you have it set at 87 PSI with a 70/90 pressure switch. So the CSV is wide open when the pump starts, and does not reduce the starting current.

With the CSV set at 87 PSI, if you set the pressure switch to start the pump at 88 PSI, as with an 88/98 setting or something similar, the CSV would be in the 1 GPM position when the pump starts, and the start amps would be reduced considerably. You might want to try that and see how your generator reacts.

Our 2” and larger valves are normally closed valves, which would start a 1000 GPM pump at 5 GPM no matter the pressure switch setting, and the starting amps would be very similar to using a soft start type panel. Starting a pump against an almost closed valve is very beneficial for a pump and motor.

Quote:
Originally Posted by cujet View Post
As an engineer, I have a difficult time socially. Most of it stems from the fact that people do not understand what I say. I'm reasonably articulate, kind and considerate. However, the vast majority of people really don't understand basic science. Not to mention something as simple as a pump with a regulating valve, driven by a continuous duty motor.

A very large number of people really do think they understand why things work. Nothing could be further from the truth.

In fact, most humans confuse social smarts and scientific prowess. They can, and will, argue a point Ad Infinitum, while completely misunderstanding the most basic of technical concepts.
I have the same problem, as you can tell by the comments from MattB4 and Rancher. I can’t count how many times I have had this argument in the last quarter of a century. It usually ends up with the engineer, or want-a-be engineer getting very angry and telling me, “I am entitled to my own opinion, even if it is wrong”. To which I usually reply, if you can read a pump curve, an amp meter, and a pressure gauge you will see that these things are indeed facts, and not just my opinion.

I do get a kick out of going back to old threads and discussions from years ago, like in 07 to 09 or older, and seeing how these same people have changed their minds. 10 years ago they were arguing with me the way Matt is on this thread. But at least I planted a seed of intelligence back then, because years later they say things like “amps will reduce when a pump is restricted with a valve”, “cycling is the worst thing for a pump”, and “VFD’s are not reliable and do not save energy”, which is exactly the opposite of what they said years ago. Apparently it just takes longer for some people to understand the facts.
07-15-2016 11:07 AM
6556 Had to go back and look, guess it was a bit confusion on my part (perhaps you're a bit to blame too *L*).


Back a page you said this .... "Advantage: The well pump start up current strains my generator. The CSV limits the pump starts to a grand total of ONE, when showering solo or during other minor water usage."

First sentence you talk current, then next you said starts a grand total of one.


Just thought you meant "a grand total of one amp"
07-15-2016 07:09 AM
cujet
Quote:
Originally Posted by 6556 View Post

Getting back on subject, while I'm sure restricting water flow could cause the motor to consume less power, it's hard for me to believe that this valve can drop start up current to 1 amp. The term "start up" current normally implies that this is the "peak current" and current is expected to drop to it's "normal run" value.

If the start up current has dropped to 1 amp, what is now the normal running amperage?


I missed where anyone claimed that start up current is reduced. If I did so, or even implied that, I absolutely apologize. Clearly, my 2HP well pump's start up current is unchanged by the CSV.

What has changed is the number of times the pump starts during use. This is a big benefit when operating "off grid" on generator power, like I do from time to time. I generally use my "Listeroid" generator. But I also have a commercial Subaru generator, 2 Honda generators and a cheapie HF unit.

07-14-2016 11:40 PM
6556 Oh boy! Look at all the fun I missed!

Since it was I (I'm pretty sure) brought up "bearing life" in jet water pumps let me.. add my 2 cents.

I've stated in many other threads that we have a "wet basement". For those who haven't seen those posts I'll give a quick version. Our basement is "always" wet. it goes from really damp.. to wet ... to very wet... to "Lake Basement".

Our "shallow well jet pump" Over the last 20 years or so I think I've replaced it about 5 times. Each time I replaced it because (being in our basement) it simply was "screeching" to loud.

The pump still pumped.
The pump wasn't leaking.
The pressure switch was still working.

I'm sure that "due to the environment" and my low tolerance to "high pitched noise" pump life seen here is so short.

Also, these are (at about $300.00) relatively cheap. (Red Lion 3/4hp)


Without a doubt, these pumps could be made with better bearings/seals and last much longer.

I am not convinced that it's the frequency of cycles or some sort of an electrolysis action.

I suspect that it's the failure of the seal and drying out / breakdown of the grease, main culprit time and a damp environment.

The motors on these pumps have high rpm and small shaft size means those balls in those bearings are very small, which means they have to spin pretty fast.

And speaking of pump failures.. every automotive water pump I replaced failed due to bearings/seals. Guess they use cheap bearings too.


Just had a thought, I wonder if one of those magical impellers was used in an automotive water pump.. someone could make a lot of money!


Getting back on subject, while I'm sure restricting water flow could cause the motor to consume less power, it's hard for me to believe that this valve can drop start up current to 1 amp. The term "start up" current normally implies that this is the "peak current" and current is expected to drop to it's "normal run" value.

If the start up current has dropped to 1 amp, what is now the normal running amperage?
07-14-2016 10:40 PM
MattB4
Quote:
Originally Posted by cujet View Post
As an engineer, I have a difficult time socially. Most of it stems from the fact that people do not understand what I say. I'm reasonably articulate, kind and considerate. However, the vast majority of people really don't understand basic science. ...
I have found that it is always more difficult to deal with people that are reasonably smart and do understand some basics. The inventor of this valve is of this camp. He knows enough to concoct what seems like a valid scientific explanation but all the time knowing it is being used to confuse those that does not have his level of intelligence. The key is to understand to look for contradictions and claims that can not be proven but rely on popular ideas.

Incidentally, I can buy the notion of currents being introduced into a motors casing and possible bearing failure. How often that might occur would require fairly intensive research however before you could claim it was actually happening. To go from there and create a device that you were selling to prevent premature bearing failure due to stray currents would be analogous to the claim of CSV inventor in reference to prolonged pump life from using his device.

To put it simply, extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof.
07-14-2016 06:28 PM
cujet As an engineer, I have a difficult time socially. Most of it stems from the fact that people do not understand what I say. I'm reasonably articulate, kind and considerate. However, the vast majority of people really don't understand basic science. Not to mention something as simple as a pump with a regulating valve, driven by a continuous duty motor.

A very large number of people really do think they understand why things work. Nothing could be further from the truth.

In fact, most humans confuse social smarts and scientific prowess. They can, and will, argue a point Ad Infinitum, while completely misunderstanding the most basic of technical concepts.

Any discussion about bearing life, without discussing MTBF, design lifespan, operating conditions, temperature swings, seal failure, moisture intrusion and lubrication failure, is incomplete. Maybe even including the mistaken assumption that a bearing has a finite number of revolutions before failure. Nothing could be further from the truth.

A common example of motor anti-friction (ball) bearing failure has to do with poor design. An induction motor is chock-a-block full of a rotating magnetic field. Sometimes a small current is induced between the case and rotor, causing electrical arcing and micro-welding in the ball and roller bearings. Those bearings have won't last as long as they should, when installed in a poorly designed motor.

But, we'd be happy to blame something else for the premature failure, without ever addressing the real problem.
07-14-2016 05:21 PM
Valveman
Quote:
Originally Posted by MattB4 View Post
Nor can you use anecdotal evidence to prove it. Your explanation is wrong in several areas. We have already been through that. You rely on good sounding but misleading technical information to do the old dazzle with BS approach.

Your claims are not facts. Facts would be a controlled experimental study. Hand waving only works in the movies. No point to carry this on. I did some research and I see where you can do that to incredible lengths as you have on other Forums.

You will just have to explain to the hand.
Yep! I am like a dog with a bone. I don't give up when I know I am right.
07-14-2016 04:46 PM
MattB4
Quote:
Originally Posted by Valveman View Post
Sorry but if you understood not just the device, but how pumps really work, you would know these are not just my claims, but actual facts.

I can explain it to you, but I can't understand it for you.
Nor can you use anecdotal evidence to prove it. Your explanation is wrong in several areas. We have already been through that. You rely on good sounding but misleading technical information to do the old dazzle with BS approach.

Your claims are not facts. Facts would be a controlled experimental study. Hand waving only works in the movies. No point to carry this on. I did some research and I see where you can do that to incredible lengths as you have on other Forums.

You will just have to explain to the hand.
07-14-2016 04:29 PM
Valveman
Quote:
Originally Posted by MattB4 View Post
You are incorrect again. I do understand the device. I just do not accept your claims about it. Sorry that you not able to understand the difference.
Sorry but if you understood not just the device, but how pumps really work, you would know these are not just my claims, but actual facts.

I can explain it to you, but I can't understand it for you.
07-14-2016 03:52 PM
MattB4
Quote:
Originally Posted by Valveman View Post
...
Thanks for making the effort to understand it. Sorry you are not able to do so.
You are incorrect again. I do understand the device. I just do not accept your claims about it. Sorry that you not able to understand the difference.
07-14-2016 03:30 PM
Valveman
Quote:
Originally Posted by MattB4 View Post
Really no! You confuse the issue between irrigation systems that run for long periods with a constant demand and residential water systems that are periodic demands and intermittent operation. You also misstate what continuous duty rating means. It does not mean that a item lasts longer if it is ran continuously! It simply means that item does not fail quickly from running continuously until it wears out. It could last forever if you never run it.

Your valve seems to have a use but you seem to want to over claim about it. This raises suspicion. That you also play games with technical knowledge is a further red flag. I will pass on installing one. But thanks for making the effort to explain your device.
The exact same pumps are used for long periods of constant demand as are used for residential water systems. Pumps don't know if they are watering plants or people. But it is a proven fact that pumps will last longer when running continuously than when cycling on and off.

I am not playing any games with technical knowledge. Not over claiming anything. Just ask those who have one.

Thanks for making the effort to understand it. Sorry you are not able to do so.
07-14-2016 03:11 PM
MattB4
Quote:
Originally Posted by Valveman View Post
No really! ...
Really no! You confuse the issue between irrigation systems that run for long periods with a constant demand and residential water systems that are periodic demands and intermittent operation. You also misstate what continuous duty rating means. It does not mean that a item lasts longer if it is ran continuously! It simply means that item does not fail quickly from running continuously until it wears out. It could last forever if you never run it.

Your valve seems to have a use but you seem to want to over claim about it. This raises suspicion. That you also play games with technical knowledge is a further red flag. I will pass on installing one. But thanks for making the effort to explain your device.
07-14-2016 02:26 PM
Valveman
Quote:
Originally Posted by MattB4 View Post
I totally disagree. Common water system pumps are not built for continuous operation. They are designed to run and stop. Not to mention any rotating machinery wears as it runs. I have had pumps that cycle and last practically forever. It really depends on the quality of the pump and electric motor and the duty requirements.
No really! It says right on the nameplate of almost any jet or submersible pump, “Made for Continuous Duty”. Farmers would have a hard time if they were not. They usually run those pumps for months or years at a time.

Now as I said earlier, the bearings in a jet pump are only rated for so many hours. But you can use those up a little at a time as the pump cycles on and off, or you can use them all in a few years of running continuously. If they had a grease cert and a shot of grease now and then, the bearings would last much longer. The bearings are really the only wearable part in a jet pump that is running continuously. The seal has a film of water between the plates, which basically makes it frictionless. The impeller is suspended at the end of a shaft and doesn’t touch anything. The windings in the motor do not wear as much when maintained at a constant temperature, as compared to multiple cycles of heating and cooling. The centrifugal start switch, capacitor, and pressure switch are only engaged for a pump start. So when running continuous they do not wear at all.

A submersible motor on the other hand, has a Kingsbury type thrust bearing with a film of water between the plates. These type bearings are frictionless as long as the film of water is present. Most submersible impellers are also held up by the motor shaft and do not touch anything. The few impeller types that do touch the diffuser are supposedly made out of almost frictionless plastic. As long as a submersible pump is running continuously, everything is frictionless and they will last almost forever. I have one that pumps water to animals on a farm that has been producing 3 GPM and running continuously now for over 12 years. The only time it goes off is during the occasional power outage, which starting after the power comes back on is putting the only real wear on it.

Starting, especially re-starting from cycling before the motor has had time to cool down properly is the hardest thing for any pump. Sure most smaller pumps will survive a lot of cycling and last a long time, but they would last even longer if they didn’t have to start so much.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MattB4 View Post
ETA: There are also a few other nagging issues with some of your claims. They contradict themselves. If your CSV valve is hooked up with a pressure tank than it will by necessity allow the pump to shutoff on no demand. If it did not shutoff (run 24/7) than it also would encounter periods of no demand and thus be "deadheaded".
The CSV only lets the pump run 24/7 IF you are using water 24/7. When there is no demand it lets the pressure tank fill and shut off as you say. So there is no way to deadhead the pump.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MattB4 View Post
If it cycles on and off the only question than becomes does it do it less than in a system with a adequate sized pressure tank?
It all depends on how you use the water and which size pressure tank you use with the CSV. When you are using more than 1 GPM for long periods of time, the pump runs continuously and never cycles no matter the size of tank.

When using a CSV with what you would call “an adequate size tank”, overall the pump would cycle less for intermittent uses. It would still have the same size tank for toilet flushes, but the CSV would keep the pump from cycling for longer uses like showers, where is might cycle a half dozen times when showering without the CSV.

You can also use a CSV with a really small tank. The pump will cycle every time you flush a toilet, but still will not cycle during showers or irrigation demands. Overall the pump will cycle about the same number of times as when using “an adequate size tank” without a CSV.

The more water is used for things like garden hoses, filling pools, irrigation, and heat pumps, the more cycles the CSV will save.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MattB4 View Post
The other question is does more constant operation of the pump increase power requirements or is a wash? Demand of the system is going to require X amount of gallons being pumped regardless of anything else.
Again that depends on how you use the water. If all your long-term watering needs are set up to run the pump close to its Best Efficiency Point, it will be a wash. If some or all of your irrigation demands are far short of BEP, it will cost a bit more. But at the same time constant pressure can increase the efficiency of your irrigation by making the sprinklers hit the right spot every time they go around.
07-14-2016 11:18 AM
MattB4
Quote:
Originally Posted by Valveman View Post
...

Pumps are made for continuous duty. They will last longer when running 24/7 than when cycling on and off no matter what. ...
I totally disagree. Common water system pumps are not built for continuous operation. They are designed to run and stop. Not to mention any rotating machinery wears as it runs. I have had pumps that cycle and last practically forever. It really depends on the quality of the pump and electric motor and the duty requirements.

ETA: There are also a few other nagging issues with some of your claims. They contradict themselves. If your CSV valve is hooked up with a pressure tank than it will by necessity allow the pump to shutoff on no demand. If it did not shutoff (run 24/7) than it also would encounter periods of no demand and thus be "deadheaded". If it cycles on and off the only question than becomes does it do it less than in a system with a adequate sized pressure tank? The other question is does more constant operation of the pump increase power requirements or is a wash? Demand of the system is going to require X amount of gallons being pumped regardless of anything else.
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