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Topic Review (Newest First)
10-24-2019 05:47 PM
albertjohnson Lots of good advice here.
BJJ is great! If you're against multiple opponents though...don't go to the ground.
The OP may not be around any more, seems he never came back, but for anyone, check out some of Sammy Franco books - Defeat Multiple Attackers, and Widow Maker Program and How to Fight Bigger Opponents, Savage Street Fighting, etc.

The one LEO I think, turned asset recovery agent, who'd done something for 20 years , said it well - It's not the dog in the fight; it's the fight in the dog. You gotta be willing. And many thugs are willing to hurt or maim you...without remorse.

Sammy Franco's books will teach you stuff they usually aren't covered in the great MA's such as boxing, BJJ, KM, Muay Thai, Jeet Kune Do, San Soo. (well MAYBE you'll get some street fighting secrets in JKD and San Soo, but only after a lot of beginner stuff that might take months or a year or two.) Ayaayaas said it well too. The simple front kick is one of the very first things you learn in Jeet Kune Do. Soooo effective. So easy to practice and learn. I saw some youtube crazy guy came running headlong at you, swinging wild, and thought a front snap kick would end that right away, with right timing.

Steer away from Aikido, Tae Kwan Do and almost any McDojos that does katas or forms. They're a waste of time mostly. The 2 months it takes you learn some kata, you could be quite deadly by learning a little boxing, a front kick, and some street fight methods, ala Sammy Franco.

I'm in no way affiliated with Sammy Franco, but reading a few of his books will teach you some life saving, quickly learned techniques, THAT you usually don't want to and may never need to use. Better to turn and run away, fast as hell. Most of his stuff are to be ONLY used in life threatening circumstances.

A BJJ blackbelt could often easily defeat a single opponent, but if that opponent has a buddy near by...to easy for his thug friend to just come up and kick you in the head, whilst you're applying the rear naked choke...even a female buddy.
09-19-2019 11:03 PM
iyaayas Just thought of something for the folks just getting into self defense.

The keg kick.

Extremely useful and pretty safe compared to high kicks to the head or torso which can leave you open and vulnerable if your opponent reads it and catches you off balance.

Leg kicks can be thrown easily without leaving you vulnerable. Targeting the knee at the right angle can actually end a fight. But for those that don't know...targeting the opponents legs with accurate kicks can open all kinds of attacks for ending a fight.

First, if you land enough of them even without taking out a knee you can put your attacker off balance which can help you with a take down or simply force them to keep their distance and NOT take you down if you prefer to stand.

I include sweeps in leg attacks. Traditional karate or tae kwon do I honestly don't have much use for except the sweep. Just by itself without a follow up attack it drains and demoralizes an opponent to be continuously sent to the ground. Then there's take down value. It's an easy way for a smaller person to bring a larger opponent down without having to grapple. If your fast you can capitalize with a mount and ground and pound on a stronger opponent you might otherwise not be able to get down on the ground.

It should be noted that strength and size are advantages you must take into consideration in a fight. If your outweighed and your opponent is stronger your ground game and technique has to be much better or you will be over powered .

That goes along the lines of the pick. Skills and know how will almost always at least equal the difference in size and strength between opponents but as a smaller person the key is to outsmart and outfight the opponent.

For example: arm bars are awesome but if your opponent is a lot bigger and stronger you have to realize that you may not be able to break that arm or you might just get picked up and slammed even though you have the lock.

Happens to me all the time when sparring at the gym. I'm a pretty small guy, I go 155 with my boots on. But I'm Irish so I take on all with relish and bigger guys...some stuff like the arm bar just doesn't work.

One of my buddies I spar with is easily in the 250 range and i just don't have the sauce to submit him with that hold. Trust me I've tried and I've locked em in tight and it's a no go. He simply stands up which lifts my entire body off the mat if I refuse to give up the hold and slams be until I let go.

I did get him with a triangle choke once but I paid for it before he tapped. I got slammed but hung on and since I had it tight he was going out eventually. But had this been a street fight I seriously doubt I could have held that choke after being slammed on concrete instead of a mat.

So. For self defense I strongly suggest actual training if your female or just a small guy. To effectively defend against a larger, stronger attacker you have got to know how to fight them and how to overcome that Gap.

Remember: if everything else is equal like ability and the know how to fight, the larger stronger person is going to beat you. To win or just defend against this as a smaller person you must know how to fight and you have to be better than you opponent/attacker.
09-19-2019 10:16 PM
iyaayas Yep. The takedown is absolutely key and I don't think it's talked about enough.

I kinda took it for granted because of my wrestling background. I never realized how vital that was until I got into training my daughter's.

I taught them the chokes, the arm bars and leg and heel hooks. I did that and then realized when sparring that they didn't know how to get me to the ground and into a position to deploy those tools.

My step daughter is 5'10 and goes 220. She's not fat. She's just a damn corn fed country girl. She picked up the takedown easy because she has the size and strength to give even most guys a run for their money. She's considering paying football with the boys but I'm desperately trying to steer her into wrestling instead. Both coaches want to give her the shot.

My bio daughter is built more like me. Thin and wiry. For her the takedown is almost all technique rather than brute force and strength.

She much prefers to smash with elbows and knees and even traditional striking and kick boxing rather than grapple. She's super accurate and knows how to pick her opponent apart to land strikes and she's FAST and agile like a cat so after KM we both decided on muy thai for her next progression.

Still I force her to grapple and wrestle. She's good at avoiding takedowns and fighting her way but I want her to at least be capable of mounting a good defense on the ground.

Her favorite strategy is to attack the legs and try to hit the knee followed by a full mount with a flurry of elbow strikes.

Often just taking out the knee of an opponent is a win. She likes to say if they cant run they won't catch her as she high tails it outa Dodge.
09-19-2019 07:42 PM
ForgedInTheFlame
Quote:
Originally Posted by Not PC View Post
Spot on regarding Judo. Ground skills aren't worth much if one isn't skilled at taking people to the ground. There are some BJJ gyms that don't work stand-up because "that's when most injuries occur" and that's unfortunate.



One of our BJJ instructors is a Judo blackbelt. He teaches a takedown-only class a few times per week. I only go to that class once per week because getting tossed around is hard on the body at my age. It's no problem for young people, but I've got two bulging disks.
I've got a bulge and it isn't a disk. [emoji4]

Yea, I'm not PC either.

Sent from my Note 8 using Tapatalk
09-19-2019 05:57 AM
Not PC Spot on regarding Judo. Ground skills aren't worth much if one isn't skilled at taking people to the ground. There are some BJJ gyms that don't work stand-up because "that's when most injuries occur" and that's unfortunate.

One of our BJJ instructors is a Judo blackbelt. He teaches a takedown-only class a few times per week. I only go to that class once per week because getting tossed around is hard on the body at my age. It's no problem for young people, but I've got two bulging disks.
09-18-2019 03:18 PM
iyaayas I don't see a lot of people talking about it but Judo is also an excellent discipline.

I was recently introduced to it at the gym. As in I got hip tossed and thrown around like a rag doll. I eventually got the guy into a triangle but holy crap, it felt like a real fight while I was getting thrown around.
09-18-2019 03:12 PM
iyaayas Speaking of fighting systems...outside the cage or ring I think the best " style " is the one you develop for yourself. I hate limitations and like to mix things up. Use what works and build off that.

The best professional fighters are usually well rounded, meaning they can strike, clinch, grapple, wrestle, all of it. Some guys that are particularly good at either stand up or ground work but not both often lose simply because they couldn't force the fight in their direction.

A lot of people rag on KM but I think KM is one of the best approaches for people to take just getting into formal self defense training. Krav takes a little bit of everything and does IMO give people a solid base to build off.
09-17-2019 08:14 PM
Not PC
Quote:
Originally Posted by BillM View Post
In WWII the military trained our troops to do this using a course called "Get Tough" It was not a hand to hand fighting style but a hand to hand killing style. It was tailored to teach average citizens to kill quickly without hours and hours in a DoJo.

You can look it up on U Tube.
I think that "Get Tough" was a good program for it's time. Nowadays, the Army & Marine Corps have created their own systems, AF & conventional Navy use something called Controlled Force, and Naval Special Warfare (NSW) uses Gracie Survival Tactics (GST).

Having been in the Navy for a long time, I've done multiple tours in different communities. I've taken Marine Corps Martial Arts (MCMAP) up to Green belt (which is only like 3 weeks), Controlled Force, and GST level 1. The Army combatives is the only program I haven't been exposed to, but I've been told is very similar to MCMAP. I'm of the opinion that GST is by far the best program as long as some striking is incorporated (NSW incorporates striking on their own). MCMAP is basically Krav Maga with minor differences in technique and it's a solid program. I'm not at all impressed with Controlled Force as it makes a lot of assumptions that an opponent/attacker is completely inept.

All of them will make you better off than they were before in a short period of time, but none of them will make you competent without constant training. If anyone tells says that you can take a seminar or class for a short period of time and be proficient, they're mistaken. One has to drill the techniques under instruction until they become muscle memory. It's not enough to "learn" an art from books or videos. Feedback from a proficient instructor is vital as no one is capable of perfecting multiple techniques without correction. Anything without sparring or hands-on instruction is something I'd avoid.

As your post alludes, none of them are "fighting" systems. They're designed to control an opponent and kill them if necessary. This is an important distinction from fighting (boxing, muay thai, karate, TKD, etc).
09-14-2019 02:08 PM
Jack Swilling Why not do what the best of the best do ??????
Wrestle
BJJ
Boxing
Muay Thai
Sambo fighters are successful, but all must master striking
If we know what is proven to be the best, do that
You will never hear the words Krav Maga said in relation to MMA or MMA champions
Very few have had success with Karate or Kung Fu, judo, or whatever
Why waste time?????
It is a simple progression if you are young
The path of the best of the best
Put in the hours
Or spend your time creating firearms muscle memory and tactics
09-14-2019 01:53 PM
BillM
Fighting Styles

One fighting style is as good as another!

There are only three factors involved in self defense.

You should be ready , willing and able.

You can dispense with ready and able but you can not defend yourself unless you are willing.

I was a Deputy Sheriff and later an Asset Recovery agent for 32 lenders.

I have been in a lot of fights over a 20 year period.

The most dangerous people I ever knew were not trained or physically fit but they were always willing.

The truth about any type of combat is that the combatant who delivers the first injury usually wins.

The people I feared the most would just hurt you with no hesitation or remorse. They were not martial artists or huge but were just plain dog mean.

To be prepared to defend yourself , you have to be willing to hurt the other person first with no hesitation or remorse.

In WWII the military trained our troops to do this using a course called "Get Tough" It was not a hand to hand fighting style but a hand to hand killing style. It was tailored to teach average citizens to kill quickly without hours and hours in a DoJo.

You can look it up on U Tube.
09-13-2019 07:26 AM
iyaayas
Quote:
Originally Posted by Not PC View Post
Excellent point regarding the use of large bones.

I'm a Krav Maga instructor. Before anyone goes off thinking I'm some kind of self-defense bad-a$$, I'm a 4-stripe BJJ blue belt, level 4 KM student and hold just a level 1 instructor certification (means KMA only trusts me to teach beginners) and only teach a couple of classes per week. This means I'm more of a moderately skilled enthusiast rather than a self-defense professional who does this for a living.

With that being said, the more reputable Krav Maga organizations (IKMF, KMWW, KMA, & others) put a lot of thought into what is the proper techniques to teach at each knowledge and skill level. As others have alluded, most people have no idea how to fight, much less throw a punch. It may be seem counter intuitive, but this applies to people who get in fights all the time (bar brawls, street fights, etc...) Simply watch some stupid youtube fights and you'll see what I'm talking about. We teach our beginners to do palm heel strikes rather than punches for the first couple of weeks for this reason. I'm convinced that your average adult in their 30's with 1 year of legitimate martial arts training under their belt is probably safe against the type of person who would go around starting fights.

I'll say that I only partially agree with your advice on wrestling. If you'd stated "get your kids into wrestling", I'd be jumping up and down in agreement. I think that for children, wrestling IS the best sport possible for them to do. It's amazing cardio, works coordination, teaches body control, is the basic foundation for hand-to-hand combat, and there's still a team element to it which is good for kids. However, most of the people here are adults and it's not like there's a whole lot of adult wrestling programs for beginners out there.

For an adult looking to get into something, I can't recommend BJJ enough. It has everything wrestling does and so much more. There are no chokes or joint manipulations in wrestling, yet that's the whole point of BJJ. Wrestling is great for getting into a position where one can apply effective ground 'n pound, but why not save your bones & choke someone unconscious or incapacitate them by destroying a joint? Wrestling doesn't cover those skills at all. There's nothing in wrestling that isn't covered in BJJ except for pins which has no application in a fight. Also, consider the fact that MMA fighters use a whole lot of different martial arts, but BJJ is the only martial art that's universal within MMA. There's a very good reason for that.

Behind lacrosse, BJJ is the fastest growing "sport" in the US with people picking it up at all ages. I didn't start until I was 37 (20 years after my wrestling career was over) and I've seen people start well into their 60's. There's plenty of BJJ schools out there and they're almost all supportive & friendly, so give it a try. One thing to be aware of, there's some BJJ gyms out there that don't work stand-up takedowns. Not exactly the best approach if they want their students to be proficient in a self-defense situation. Unless I'm fighting a disabled person, we're not going to start the fight on our knees!

Testimonial time: My only regret is that I didn't start BJJ much sooner. I've dropped 25lbs since starting and I wasn't even close to being obese before I started. My cardio & muscle definition is vastly improved, people think I'm younger than my actual age (that wasn't the case before), and I've made a bunch of new friends (many who are preppers themselves). Honestly, behind giving my life to God and marrying my wife, taking up BJJ the best decision I've ever made.
Perhaps I should have said grappling instead of wrestling. I agree, BJJ is probably the best discipline going as far as grappling goes.

My daughter started in KM and has since moved on to muy thai. She's like me in that we both prefer saving our hands for chokes, joint locks and all around grappling. Especially for her. She's got small delicate hands and wrists. She knows how and can punch but much prefers to deploy elbows and knees.

Shes got wicked elbows that only came through training and lemme tell ya, even as small as she is she can wreck havoc with them.

That flat of the elbow IS a club.

So are your shins.

Knees are bricks and your head is a wrecking ball. Heavy bone. Those are the weapons for strikes.
09-13-2019 05:44 AM
Not PC
Quote:
Originally Posted by iyaayas View Post
Learn how to wrestle.

Then learn how to use large bones like your head, elbows, and knees to smash someone into submission.

Boxing is useful but if your not wearing pillows on your hands and have your wrists taped properly your gonna likely hurt yourself throwing punches at someone's face.

I see a punch coming I drop my chin instinctively. Said punch ends up hitting the hardest part of the human anatomy. It won't end well.

I boxed and wrestled all through high school. Boxing will help you defend against a striker in a street fight but you can not expect your bare hands to survive hitting a human skull long enough to ensure victory. One punch landing on the top of the head and your dominant hand is now useless.

Besides, your own head, knees, and elbows can deliver more devastation than your fist ever will.
Excellent point regarding the use of large bones.

I'm a Krav Maga instructor. Before anyone goes off thinking I'm some kind of self-defense bad-a$$, I'm a 4-stripe BJJ blue belt, level 4 KM student and hold just a level 1 instructor certification (means KMA only trusts me to teach beginners) and only teach a couple of classes per week. This means I'm more of a moderately skilled enthusiast rather than a self-defense professional who does this for a living.

With that being said, the more reputable Krav Maga organizations (IKMF, KMWW, KMA, & others) put a lot of thought into what is the proper techniques to teach at each knowledge and skill level. As others have alluded, most people have no idea how to fight, much less throw a punch. It may be seem counter intuitive, but this applies to people who get in fights all the time (bar brawls, street fights, etc...) Simply watch some stupid youtube fights and you'll see what I'm talking about. We teach our beginners to do palm heel strikes rather than punches for the first couple of weeks for this reason. I'm convinced that your average adult in their 30's with 1 year of legitimate martial arts training under their belt is probably safe against the type of person who would go around starting fights.

I'll say that I only partially agree with your advice on wrestling. If you'd stated "get your kids into wrestling", I'd be jumping up and down in agreement. I think that for children, wrestling IS the best sport possible for them to do. It's amazing cardio, works coordination, teaches body control, is the basic foundation for hand-to-hand combat, and there's still a team element to it which is good for kids. However, most of the people here are adults and it's not like there's a whole lot of adult wrestling programs for beginners out there.

For an adult looking to get into something, I can't recommend BJJ enough. It has everything wrestling does and so much more. There are no chokes or joint manipulations in wrestling, yet that's the whole point of BJJ. Wrestling is great for getting into a position where one can apply effective ground 'n pound, but why not save your bones & choke someone unconscious or incapacitate them by destroying a joint? Wrestling doesn't cover those skills at all. There's nothing in wrestling that isn't covered in BJJ except for pins which has no application in a fight. Also, consider the fact that MMA fighters use a whole lot of different martial arts, but BJJ is the only martial art that's universal within MMA. There's a very good reason for that.

Behind lacrosse, BJJ is the fastest growing "sport" in the US with people picking it up at all ages. I didn't start until I was 37 (20 years after my wrestling career was over) and I've seen people start well into their 60's. There's plenty of BJJ schools out there and they're almost all supportive & friendly, so give it a try. One thing to be aware of, there's some BJJ gyms out there that don't work stand-up takedowns. Not exactly the best approach if they want their students to be proficient in a self-defense situation. Unless I'm fighting a disabled person, we're not going to start the fight on our knees!

Testimonial time: My only regret is that I didn't start BJJ much sooner. I've dropped 25lbs since starting and I wasn't even close to being obese before I started. My cardio & muscle definition is vastly improved, people think I'm younger than my actual age (that wasn't the case before), and I've made a bunch of new friends (many who are preppers themselves). Honestly, behind giving my life to God and marrying my wife, taking up BJJ the best decision I've ever made.
09-13-2019 12:19 AM
iyaayas Learn how to wrestle.

Then learn how to use large bones like your head, elbows, and knees to smash someone into submission.

Boxing is useful but if your not wearing pillows on your hands and have your wrists taped properly your gonna likely hurt yourself throwing punches at someone's face.

I see a punch coming I drop my chin instinctively. Said punch ends up hitting the hardest part of the human anatomy. It won't end well.

I boxed and wrestled all through high school. Boxing will help you defend against a striker in a street fight but you can not expect your bare hands to survive hitting a human skull long enough to ensure victory. One punch landing on the top of the head and your dominant hand is now useless.

Besides, your own head, knees, and elbows can deliver more devastation than your fist ever will.
09-10-2019 03:50 PM
Not PC Like others here, I also subscribe to the "one striking plus one grappling = somewhat well rounded fighter" discipline. I wrestled as a youth through high school and now do BJJ, but I know that BJJ alone isn't enough (what if your opponent is a really good striker or there's more than one opponent). I also do Krav Maga. There's some really good Krav schools out there and some REALLY bad ones that give the art a terrible name, but I think it's great for self defense. Krav isn't a fighting system that teaches you how to win a fair one on one fight, it's a self defense system that helps you stay safe even in an unfair situation. This is something that "fighting" arts don't do. I'm not so niave as to think that I'm the most proficient self defense expert in the world, but I think that concealed carry (and regular practice with it), carrying a knife, and the combination of both arts makes me proficient enough at self defense.

There's a lot of McDojo crap out there. There's no such thing as a "no-touch" knockout or spiritual punches. Be wary of arts that claim supernatural powers or have so much formality and rules as to render them useless in an unpredictable violent encounter.

We could all debate forever about what works & what doesn't but my advice is to look at MMA. There's a ton of MMA fighters with different backgrounds (boxing, wrestling, BJJ, Muay Thai, Krav, Karate, TKD) but none of the successful fighters are proficient at just one art. However, there are a lot of arts that no successful MMA fighter relies on (Aikido, Kung Fu, Systema, etc). I would recommend staying away from those.

At the end of the day, good on anyone who wants to work their hand-to-hand game. There's a lot of people who think that carrying a gun is all that's ever needed, but those are people who have never heard of, much less, attempted the Tueller Drill.
09-07-2019 08:49 AM
NW GUY BACK in the 70s I used to spar with a black belt who had studied in Japan and that rotating hands thing was part of the fighting style, not quite the same way but it was effective until you figured out the way around it.

IF you never saw it before it was off putting, but see it a couple of times and then you understand there is no strength to what they are doing and their center of gravity is too high and you can counter it fairly easy.
09-07-2019 12:16 AM
BillM
Fighting style

I recommend the "Get Tough " course taught by William Farbane during WWII.

You can look it up on U Tube
09-05-2019 11:34 AM
Vodka Wizard Running slaps of course
09-04-2019 02:57 PM
deprogramming services Whatever your style is, if it involves striking (with the hands, feet, etc., or weapons), the tire dummy is one of the best raining devices you can get. I recommend palm heel strikes on it instead of punches, but with padded gloves you could do punches I suppose if you want.

In any case, it gives you immediate feedback every time you hit it, telling you how effective the blow would have been. So it ends up being like lifting weights with fighting movements: your body shapes itself around what you do. I got a lot of good out of it.

Neither this nor any one other thing should be the only training you do. But this is really good combined with whatever else you do.

There is nothing like beating this up with a baseball bat to get a really good workout. All workouts with it are good exercise, but there is just something about a baseball bat that makes it especially good.







More pics on my profile page.
09-03-2019 03:41 PM
NW GUY
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tactical Lever View Post
But conditioning is huge. Bone, and hand toughening, flexible muscular strength, and cardiovascular endurance. When you are messing with someone who has bricks for hands, and is strong as a truck, swinging and defending for 3 minutes, or 5 minutes straight, is a long dang time!
TOWARD the end of my street career I had honed my "craft" to a point where from my laying hands on to clickied up would be no more than 20-30 seconds, and it was only because I didn't want to hurt them.
IF it was a major butthed they went down a LOT faster.

The secret to it all...
have them make the first move. Once they were committed, their center of gravity shifted, and moving, then I knew exactly what my response would be and by the time they went "HUH?" it was pretty much over with. Remember what I said about doing your 3 or 4 best moves so you can do them without thinking? There ya go.
09-03-2019 12:55 AM
1611
Quote:
Originally Posted by ForgedInTheFlame View Post
I love proving bigger guys with this assumption wrong in the ring, and out of it.
I've no doubt that happens sometimes. If it happens for you regularly, who am I to argue?

But I don't believe it happens very much for most people. Including those who train.

I realize the need for some basic striking and I have boxed. Not just bag work and mitt work but sparring as well. I realize the need for some basic grappling and I have wrestled and trained BJJ. But I'm hardly adept at either and at 53 I've decided not to devote much more time to either.

Weapons are the focus for me. Each must decide his own path.
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