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Thread: Scripture Verses Against Trinitarianism Reply to Thread
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Topic Review (Newest First)
03-23-2020 02:34 PM
pinkerpv Originally posted by Dalelam

Quote:
Logos can be translated a number of ways. One of the primary translations is plan or idea. In fact, Logos is translated "Word" (capital W) signifying Christ only twice in the NT, John 1:1 and John 1:14. It is poor translating (hermaneutics) to translate something only twice in the NT as a proper title such as Word, being as closely associated as these two places are.
How would you translate logos in John 1:1 and 1:14. And Rev 19:13. As plan or idea?

It seems from the context of these two verses John is talking about Jesus Christ regardless. BTW logos in never translated plan or idea in the 330 times it is used in Scripture. And its translated 7 times in 5 verses as Word meaning Christ.
Quote:
Joh 1:1* In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.*
Quote:
Joh 1:14* And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.*
Quote:
1Jn 5:7* For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.*
Quote:
1Jn 1:1* That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, of the Word of life;*
Quote:
Rev 19:13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.

From Strong's Concordance
logos
log'-os
From G3004; something said (including the thought); by implication a topic (subject of discourse), also reasoning (the mental faculty) or motive; by extension a computation; specifically (with the article in John) the Divine Expression (that is, Christ): - account, cause, communication, X concerning, doctrine, fame, X have to do, intent, matter, mouth, preaching, question, reason, + reckon, remove, say (-ing), shew, X speaker, speech, talk, thing, + none of these things move me, tidings, treatise, utterance, word, work.

Total KJV occurrences: 330

King James Word Usage - Total: 330
word 218, saying 50, account 8, speech 8, Word (Christ) 7, thing 5, not translated 2, miscellaneous 32
03-22-2020 08:36 PM
Dalelam I am intrigued by this thread. Since I have studied the Bible, as well as anecdotal writings over a goodly number of years, I thought I would chime in. First in 2 places in the Bible, OT and NT, there is a passage that states the God in one. The first is in Deut. the second spoken by God's own son (Jesus) in the NT. Secondly, in I Corinthians 15, when evil is finally and totally defeated, Jesus hands the kingdom over to His Father.
For some reason, believers are forced to bow down to the Nicean Creed, developed and adopted by the "Church" as the new revelation of God. What it is as the work of Greek Philosophers in order to provide for themselves a comfortable living (see the RCC today with the Bishops, Cardinals and a Pope). Because of the relationship with Constantine, the church became the only "Christian Church" available for over a millennial (1000 years). Once the blinders of traditional Christianity are removed, the actual relationship between God the Father, His only Begotten Son, and the Children of God (Believers) become evident.
The Philosophers of Greece had a substantial reason (wealth and influence) to make the simple Gospel into something of a great mystery, and held the Believers captive for also 2000 years. Take the word Word (John 1:1). The Greek word is Logos. Logos can be translated a number of ways. One of the primary translations is plan or idea. In fact, Logos is translated "Word" (capital W) signifying Christ only twice in the NT, John 1:1 and John 1:14. It is poor translating (hermaneutics) to translate something only twice in the NT as a proper title such as Word, being as closely associated as these two places are.
My advice, read the Bible and stop believing what others are saying and let God help you understand the simple Gospel. Thanks for readinig.
03-22-2020 06:46 PM
Eddie_T Interestingly though it was treated as a heresy scholars are enjoying Two Powers in Heaven: Early Rabbinic Reports about Christianity and Gnosticism (Library of Early Christology) Paperback – July 17, 2012 by Alan F. Segal.

It apparently addresses OT passages and other writings which tend to show a dualism where an Angel of YHWH and YHWH are present at the same time and both have the essence of YHWH. THis sort of dualism is taken by many scholars as evidence of Y'shua in the OT. In some cases the Word (Memra) appeared to people in a vision with the implication that the Word is separate yet not, and of the same essence as YHWH.

I'll just toss this into the fray and scoot away as I once read that the greatest idol in the church (body) is its latest disagreement or obsession which takes its eyes off Y'shua.
03-22-2020 09:32 AM
PeterEnergy
Language Usage

One of the biggest problems of the idea of the trinity is language. The consistent use of words to indicate separation, hierarchy and the singular nature of the Holy Spirit, Jesus and God is far more prevalent than what is, by comparison exceptions. The most obvious is the 1C but as early as Genesis 1:10 the individualistic nature is revealed by simple language.

8. Who called the waters gathered Seas in Genesis 1:10? NOTE: It is not "we" but the singular pronoun.
The Bible repeatedly says the demons know who Jesus is. Not once do they identify him as God incarnate. This is strong scriptural evidence AGAINST the trinity.
In Luke 4:41, they say Jesus is the Messiah. It does not use some dualistic language, like he is ALSO the Messiah. What is the Messiah? One who is Anointed by God. This article explains that there are 2 involved in the anointing:
  • SUBJECT: The one who DOES the anointing. (In this case, God)
  • OBJECT: The one who HAS the anointing put on them. (In this case, God's son)
9. Why would the Bible say in Luke 4:41 the demons knew he was the one Anointed by God and repeatedly say he is the Son of God if he were actually God incarnate?

Most of the discussion about the trinity is the oneness of God and Jesus but Luke 4:1 shows separation between Jesus and the Holy Spirit.

10. The language in Luke 4:1 'was lead' indicates singular, not 'were lead' into the desert which would be the plural form, yes? (My translation actually uses the singular pronoun 'he.') NOTE: Compare to the language of Jesus being tended to by Angels in in Matthew 4:11, also singular.
IF Jesus and the Holy Spirit were one, it would not be worded as X was lead by Y. Instead, it would be X went to the desert - as in 'we went into the desert' or 'MacArthur lead us ashore.' The use of language of angels tending to Jesus, unquestionably unique beings, is the same as the Spirit leading Jesus. That is, singular language usage.
8. God called the dry land Earth, and the waters that were gathered together he called Seas. And God saw that it was good.
Genesis 1:10 (ESV)

9. Demons went out of many people and shouted, “You are the Son of God!” But Jesus ordered the demons not to speak because they knew he was the Messiah.
Luke 4:41 (CEV)

10. When Jesus returned from the Jordan River, He was full of the Holy Spirit, and the Holy Spirit led Him away from the cities and towns and out into the desert.
Luke 4:1 (VOICE)

Then the devil left Jesus, and angels came to help him.
Matthew 4:11
03-20-2020 02:38 PM
PeterEnergy
Quote:
2. If Jesus were God, who would be our mediator to God as 1 Timothy 2:5 says? The theological importance of Jesus NOT being God cannot be understated for it defeats his entire purpose of his Earthly ministry, to be our one and only mediator to God. <God's Anointed> ≠ God.
Quote:
Originally Posted by pinkerpv View Post
This verse is obviously discussing the ways a child grows. Mentally, physically, spiritually and socially. Since we already know Jesus is the Son of God, the verse is obviously talking about God the Father.
Again, the verse says simply God. Trinitarians want to insert, "The father" where it is not there. This makes this verse against trinitarianism for you have to add words to fit your preferred doctrine.
03-20-2020 02:23 PM
arleigh I seems to me that people are distracted with the worship of scriptures rather than being taught of the Holy Spirit as Jesus had provided.
Who is leveraging who?
It is with great concern that knowing the judgment of God on false teachers that I not be one of them, but direct believers to the tutelage of God as He has so costly provided. Because to neglect this gift is to insult Gods investment, elevating one's self above God.
03-20-2020 01:40 PM
pinkerpv The Trinity consists of God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit. God the Father is not God the Son nor God the Holy Spirit. The doctrine of the Trinity is that they are separate persons but equal in the sense they are all part of the Godhead.
1. Why does the earliest Gospel, Mark open by calling Jesus the son rather than God incarnate? I submit that <the son of X> ≠ X. If Jesus were God incarnate, it would have been clearer to say so and dispense with all the "son of God" language.

Quote:
Mar 1:1* The beginning of the gospel of Jesus Christ, the Son of God;
The only person who could answer your question is Mark. When I get to Heaven I will ask him. Or if you get there you can ask him. What he did write is correct. I suspect God the Holy Spirit told Mark what to write since Scripture says
Quote:
2Pe 1:20* Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.*2Pe 1:21* For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.*
Quote:
2Ti 3:16* All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:*
So the men, including Mark, were moved and inspired by the Holy Spirit to write the Scripture. So they wrote what God the Holy Spirit told them to. Because Mark didn't write what you suggest does not negate the Trinity nor support your thesis.

2. If Jesus were God, who would be our mediator to God as 1 Timothy 2:5 says? The theological importance of Jesus NOT being God cannot be understated for it defeats his entire purpose of his Earthly ministry, to be our one and only mediator to God. <God's Anointed> ≠ God.

Christ the Son of God was born a human being, mother was Mary, father was the Holy Spirit. He was named Jesus. He was a man in every sense the same as you and me except without the sin nature which is passed from the father to the children. Scripture says he was tempted in all points like as we yet without sin. When Jesus died in the flesh because He had no sin He resurrected. Scripture says Jesus Christ is the Christians High Priest. The Old Testament High Priest mediated between the Israelites and God by taking the blood of the sacrifice into the Holy of Holies once a year on the day of atonement. This was to atone for the peoples sins for that year, including the High Priests. It had to be done every year. Jesus Christ was the supreme sinless sacrifice. Because of this, He is able to be our High Priest forever using His one time sacrifice to wash away our sin forever. Because Jesus Christ is God the Son and presented Himself as the one time sacrifice for sin for the Human Race, He can represent Christians as mediator to the Father. He mediates between men/women and God the Father. Remember the Trinity is God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit. So God the Son can mediate between man and God the Father.

3. Who was pleased with Jesus in the final verse of chapter 2? (Other translations use the word "favor" and I trust there is need to quibble about the verb for the point of this thread is the subject, the noun. Who?) The text clearly does not say Jesus was pleased with himself.

Quote:
Luk 2:52* And Jesus increased in wisdom and stature, and in favour with God and man.
This verse is obviously discussing the ways a child grows. Mentally, physically, spiritually and socially. Since we already know Jesus is the Son of God, the verse is obviously talking about God the Father.

4. The wording is a little odd but to who did Jesus ascend to in John 20:17? I can go out and I can go in but no one can move from themselves. You can move toward your neighbor or distance yourself. However, relative to yourself, movement does not affect distance. <Who X Ascends To> ≠ X.

Pretty obvious Jesus is referring to God the Father. In Hebrews God the Father is referring to God the Son
Quote:
Heb 1:8* But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.*
This is a quote from Psalm 45:6. So God Father recognized the Son as God. So God the Son was ascending to God the Father.

Also, this passage clarifies that "Father" is synonymous with "God" (not the Son). John contradicts himself in his opening poetic chapter that trinitarians often rely. The above makes no sense. Father is synonymous with God the Father. Son is synonymous with God the Son.

5. In Matthew 24:36, is there equal knowledge or does God know more than Jesus? No one can know more or less than one knows. If {X>y}, then {X ≠y}.

Quote:
Mat 24:36* But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.
* I don't have a good answer for this. It could have something to do with the human side of Jesus. Its one of those many things I will find out later.

6. Why is Jesus going to God in John 14:28? John can't help himself in contradicting himself again. 1 = 1. It cannot be that 1 > 1. Someone is greater than Jesus, so says Jesus. I'll take the words of Jesus over John.
Quote:
Joh 14:28* Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I.
In verse 24 Jesus had just told his disciples that the Father had sent him. In John 13:16 Jesus had told His disciples that the servant was not greater than His lord. So in verse 28 He is keeping with that statement. Certainly it was true in Jesus's human state. Jesus continually spoke of His human and His divine nature. In John 10:30 He says I and my Father are one. Here he says the Father is greater that I

7. Who raised Jesus in Acts 3:26? (Some translations say who was raised was his servant, others say his son Jesus.) Analogous to point 1, <the servant of X> cannot be X. In any event, the point is, Jesus did not raise himself.

Quote:
Act 3:26* Unto you first God, having raised up his Son Jesus, sent him to bless you, in turning away every one of you from his iniquities.
*
Jesus said He had the power to take his life back.
Quote:
Joh 10:17* Therefore doth my Father love me, because I lay down my life, that I might take it again. Joh 10:18* No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This commandment have I received of my Father.*
So in answer to your question - God the Father raised Jesus. And Jesus raised Himself. And other Scripture indicates that the Holy Spirit was also involved. So the Answer would be God raised Jesus.

None of your questions negate the Trinity. Why don't you list all the Scriptures that you think support a non trinitarian doctrine and we can then go thru them one by one.


Go back to the original premise that you use, Exodus 20:3. I have shown where the LORD is actually God the Son and used many verses in the two posts the deity of Christ 1 & 2. You said “consider them read” . Go back and read them again and then refute the Scripture. I was planning on a thread showing all the Scripture for the Holy Spirit being God but never got around to it. I will work on it.
03-20-2020 12:37 PM
PeterEnergy
Quote:
Originally Posted by pinkerpv View Post
I will answer each of the 7 question but first I want to address your main premise that the Trinity is not true and Jesus Christ is not Deity (not directly stated but implied). It is necessary to give a proper answer to your 7 questions.

There is no “Royal We” used in Scripture.
In Genesis 1:26 the Scripture says

The "let us" is not the royal "we" that people sometimes use when referring to oneself.
Appeal to Strawman. I take it that an objective person will realize your post is a defense of what you hold to be true, trinitarianism. This thread is not about such defense as not debate is wanted, only an honest and non-defensive look at Scripture verses against trinitarianism.

Regarding the 1C, it CANNOT be that Genesis 1:26 is evidence of a godhead because it uses the plural (if not the royal) 'we' while 1C is NOT evidence against a Godhead for using the singular 'me,' as in, You shall have no other Gods before me.
03-19-2020 08:21 PM
pinkerpv Originally posted by Peterenergy

Quote:
For the sake of brevity, this is not an exhaustive presentation. The 1st Commandment in Ex 20:3 does not use the "royal we" as is used in Genesis. The 1C is, "You shall have no other gods before me." Here is the unitarian foundation of the nature of God.
I will answer each of the 7 question but first I want to address your main premise that the Trinity is not true and Jesus Christ is not Deity (not directly stated but implied). It is necessary to give a proper answer to your 7 questions.

There is no “Royal We” used in Scripture.
In Genesis 1:26 the Scripture says
Quote:
Gen 1:26* And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: …
The "let us" is not the royal "we" that people sometimes use when referring to oneself. Or the plural of Majesty. The Scripture uses a plural verb "awsaw" for made with a plural word for God "Elohiym". The words "us" and our" in verse 26 are "understood" to be included with the verb and noun and are part of the Hebrew construct.

In Hebrew the word would be understood to go with the verb. Similar to when we say to someone, Go! And actually mean "you go. The you is understood. Who is God counseling with? Who is the us? God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit.

Like the “us” and “our” and the “you” above,
The me in verse 20:3 is understood. There is no Hebrew word for me used in that verse. The word translated “before” is actually two Hebrew words, al meaning above, against, over and the word paniym meaning face. It is the same word used as face in Genesis 1:2 “face of the deep” and “face of the waters”.

It is a plural noun used in a singular sense the same way waters and deep are plural but seen as one and “God created” in Gen 1:1 is plural and used with a singular verb.

Ex 20:3 might read "Thou shalt have no other gods before my face.To try to pin down the word me in verse 20:3 to be a justification against the Trinity is error.
The word translated “gods” in 20:3 is “Elohiym” and is the same word translated “God” in Gen 1:1. Elohiym is a plural noun thus taking a plural verb in Ex 20:3. However in Gen 1:1 the verb “bara” is a singular verb so the word Elohiym was translated God and not Gods in that verse. A plural noun "God" coupled with a singular verb, "bara", showing the 3 in 1 concept of the Trinity in the first verse in the Bible.

Moses first met God in the form of the burning bush in Exodus 3:2. In Ex 3:14 God says that He is the “I AM”, the Hebrew word “Hayah “ which is derived from the Hebrew word “Yehovah” which is translated LORD. Whenever we read the word LORD it is the word Yehovah or Jehovah. And it is the same as “I AM”. This is the same LORD in Exodus 20:2 who is giving the Ten Commandments.

These are the Hebrew words Jesus Christ spoke in the Garden when Judas and the mob came to arrest Him in John 18:5. They are recorded in Greek but He spoke them in Hebrew with the same authority and power as on Mt Sinai to Moses. Because when He spoke, the men all went backward and fell to the ground. Jesus was stating He was the Yehovah of Exodus 20:3.

Jesus Christ is the person Micah is referring to in
Quote:
Micah 5:2* But thou, Bethlehem Ephratah, though thou be little among the thousands of Judah, yet out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be ruler in Israel; whose goings forth have been from of old, from everlasting.*
Only God is from everlasting.

Jesus Christ is the one Paul is referring to in
Quote:
Colossians 1:15 – 19. Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:*Col 1:16* For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:*Col 1:17* And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.*Col 1:18* And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.*Col 1:19* For it pleased the Father that in him should all fulness dwell;*
If all things in Heaven and earth were created by Christ, God the Son, then how could He have been created. He wasn't. He always was and is. And if all things were created for Him, then He was and is more that the creation.

So the basic premise that Jesus the Son of God is not God the Son, Deity, is a false premis according to Scripture. For more on this go back and reread the two posts on the Deity of Christ.
https://www.survivalistboards.com/sh...d.php?t=927340
https://www.survivalistboards.com/sh...d.php?t=927680

I will answer the 7 questions in a subsequent post.
03-19-2020 03:42 PM
PeterEnergy
Quote:
Originally Posted by cat_1978 View Post
7. Who raised Jesus in Acts 3:26?

We are all servants of God.
100% agreed. Not sure you actually answer the question though.

Quote:
Originally Posted by cat_1978 View Post
Jesus showed that when He served the Apostles by washing their feet. The Begotten Son and the Proceeded Holy Spirit are servants of God
100% agree.

I believe Jesus made a most anti-trinitarian point relative to being the servant of God, non-equality in John 13:16. Cat, again thank you so much for answering the questions in the OP. I hope we can continue to discuss anti-trinitarian verses in a respectful, non-proselytizing manner. We all know you are a devout Orthodox and a devout trinitarian. Thanks again for your positive contributions to this thread. I sincerely appreciate it.


I tell you for certain that servants are not greater than their master, and messengers are not greater than the one who sent them.
John 13:16 (CEV)
03-19-2020 03:34 PM
PeterEnergy
Quote:
Originally Posted by cat_1978 View Post
6. Why is Jesus going to God in John 14:28?

The Father is indeed far greater than Jesus for He contains in Him all the Power that He can give either to Jesus and the Holy Spirit or parts of it to Satan and his minions to work us out.
Wow! What a great answer!

Frankly, this could be a separate thread. I had not thought before about God giving parts of his power to Satan and his minions to work us out. I'll have to give that some thought.
03-19-2020 03:31 PM
PeterEnergy
Quote:
Originally Posted by cat_1978 View Post
5. In Matthew 24:36, is there equal knowledge or does God know more than Jesus?

Yes. God the Father knows more than Jesus. He gave the Son all the Knowledge but He certainly is the originator of this knowledge. Also His Will is more important than the will of the Son. We see this in the Gethsemane Episode.
Thanks! I appreciate this answer and trust an impartial observer sees how this goes against trinitarianism. In fact, it is one of the strongest verses against trinitarianism.
03-19-2020 03:29 PM
PeterEnergy
Quote:
Originally Posted by cat_1978 View Post
4. The wording is a little odd but to who did Jesus ascend to in John 20:17?

The relationship between the Persons in the Godhead is complex and can give energy to confusion.
Not really an answer to the question.
03-19-2020 03:28 PM
PeterEnergy
Quote:
Originally Posted by cat_1978 View Post
3. Who was pleased with Jesus in the final verse of chapter 2?

God the Father.
Chapter Luke 2:52 does not say the Father. Trinitarians want to add "the Father" to the text. Luke 2:52 says only that God was pleased with Jesus.

This goes against trinitarianism and 1 Corinthians makes it clear there is only one God, the Father, aka, God = Father, and God ≠ Son.

Quote:
Originally Posted by PeterEnergy View Post
For us, there is one God, the Father ...
1 Corinthians 8:6 (VOICE)
03-19-2020 03:21 PM
PeterEnergy
Quote:
Originally Posted by cat_1978 View Post
2. If Jesus were God, who would be our mediator to God as 1 Timothy 2:5 says?

The mediator between us and God cannot be any other than God.
If ever there was a contradiction, this is it. From https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/mediator
Me·​di·​a·​tor | \ ˈmē-dē-ˌā-tər \
Definition of mediator
1 : one that mediates
especially : one that mediates between parties at variance
03-19-2020 03:00 PM
OhioMan
Quote:
Originally Posted by cat_1978 View Post
I want to know who is pro Peter anti-Christian Thread?

Any anti-Christian around to defend Peter thread?
I am pro-Peter and pro-Cat and pro-everyone who follows Christ.

Peter's questions aren't outrageous and should be honestly asked when there is doubt.

I do side with your view/understanding of this particular and difficult subject but none of us are a completed work. We are under construction and always learning.

I say celebrate these difference as an opportunity to grow and learn. Countless scriptures encourage us to learn from one another, if it's total unity in our current thought and understanding we seek, I would suggest no learning could take place. After all, we already know it all. Let's be unafraid and venture past what we currently know.
03-19-2020 03:00 PM
PeterEnergy
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jack Swilling View Post
Thank you for the perspective PeterEnergy
Rather than denomination, I should have asked about your Walk
Did my answer in Post #32 answer your question relative to my Walk?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jack Swilling View Post
As a Trinitarian, I have nothing to say on this subject ... I have my beliefs
I believe in my Heart of Hearts that what I believe is True and Correct
I will never engage in a Bible debate again
Amen. What troubles me is proselytizing, trying to get others to change their beliefs. For me, it is about the questioning. We each have to come to our own answers.

This thread is not about conversation but putting out there the other side, the scripture verses against the trinity. In NO WAY, does this mean I am against God or Jesus or the Holy Spirit. However, if you ever ask yourself, why don't others believe as you, I hoped this thread would provide insight.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jack Swilling View Post
In church, at university when I was a religious studies major, and as an autodidactic

Yet my core beliefs have not changed at all
Wow! I had to look up what an autodidactic was. It's fascinating to me that in your Walk, you developed a set of beliefs early and never wavered. Have a blessed day.
03-19-2020 02:30 PM
PeterEnergy
Quote:
Originally Posted by cat_1978 View Post
So the whole idea of this thread is for you to not accept any other utterances from the others than that Jesus is not God.
You got it!

In a trial Cat, you have to let the other side talk. This thread is affords that opportunity.

It's very clear what this thread is about - discussing Scriptural evidence AGAINST the trinity.
03-19-2020 02:29 PM
PeterEnergy
Quote:
Originally Posted by cat_1978 View Post
If this thread is AGAINST Trinitarianism and my "defense of Trinitarianism is not necessary in this thread" then please explain what is this thread other than your puny attempt to crap on Christianity as a whole?
Woah. There you go again, pretending a discussion against trinitarianism is against Christianity. So, indoctrinated are you.
03-19-2020 01:48 PM
cat_1978 I want to know who is pro Peter anti-Christian Thread?

Any anti-Christian around to defend Peter thread?
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