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Old 12-11-2009, 03:05 PM
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Default three edged blades



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Saw an episode of Pawn Stars last night.

Some guy was trying to sell a WWI knife that had a three edged blade.

Expert said the reason you don't see these anymore is that the Geneva Convention outlawed knives with more than two edges because the wounds created couldn't be stitched up.

Ever heard of that before?
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Old 12-11-2009, 03:22 PM
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Tried finding an image on Google, no dice. What does a three-edged blade even look like? Guess I'll have to catch the repeat.
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Old 12-11-2009, 03:41 PM
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Default They are usally bayonets

They are that way so the wound has a harder time sealing up so it blleds out faster.
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Old 12-11-2009, 04:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AmIJustParanoid? View Post
Tried finding an image on Google, no dice. What does a three-edged blade even look like? Guess I'll have to catch the repeat.
Thick blade, looked nasty ... like a triangular ice pick
It was about ten inches long and had a 'brass knuckles' grip.
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Old 12-11-2009, 05:02 PM
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looks kinda like an sks spike bayonet blade.... hmm should that be against geneva convention....ahhhh yes that only applies to us, not our enemies
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Old 12-11-2009, 05:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rascals View Post
They are that way so the wound has a harder time sealing up so it bleeds out faster.
This is what I heard.

I have taken game with 3 bladed broadheads, and while not quite the same as the knife described, I do believe the triangular cut does not close up like a single edged blade wound would.
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Old 12-11-2009, 07:14 PM
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imagine a bayonet on a civil war musket they were triangular because the body wont heal a triangular wound as easily and i have read the geneva and hauge conventions regs ddnt see anything on blade shape
heres a link to the laws of land warfare http://faculty.ed.umuc.edu/~nstanton/FM27-10.htm

and heres the chapter on forbidden methods of waging war
http://faculty.ed.umuc.edu/~nstanton/Ch2.htm#s3
a picture of the knife would be nice sounds like a ww1 trench knife tho
is this it?
Old 12-11-2009, 07:22 PM
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Saw one on the t.v. show pawn stars. Was banned by the Gen. Cont. The year on the knife was 1918 .
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Old 12-11-2009, 07:36 PM
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What weapons cause "unnecessary injury" can only be determined in light of the practice of States in refraining from the use of a given weapon because it is believed to have that effect. The prohibition certainly does not extend to the use of explosives contained in artillery projectiles, mines, rockets, or hand grenades. Usage has, however, established the illegality of the use of lances with barbed heads, irregular-shaped bullets, and projectiles filled with glass, the use of any substance on bullets that would tend unnecessarily to inflame a wound inflicted by them, and the scoring of the surface or the filing off of the ends of the hard cases of bullets.

as you can see its not banned
Old 12-11-2009, 07:43 PM
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What weapons cause "unnecessary injury" can only be determined in light of the practice of States in refraining from the use of a given weapon.....
By "states", you mean "Countries with armies". Good thing we're just civilians, not subject to any "treaties' Of war.
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Old 12-11-2009, 08:29 PM
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By "states", you mean "Countries with armies". Good thing we're just civilians, not subject to any "treaties' Of war.
its not what i mean thats the law of land warfare i quoted but yes states mean countries
Old 12-11-2009, 08:35 PM
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I think it is weird that there is a convention banning a three edged blade because it is too deadly but not other knives, guns, bombs, etc. They are all tools meant to kill.
Old 12-11-2009, 09:11 PM
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it doesnt ban knives just any thing designed to creat un nessesary suffering like a glass bullet you wouldnt be able to find the shards thus extra un nessesary pain as it keeps cutting you for years after the conflict is an example
Old 12-11-2009, 11:05 PM
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You're forgetting one thing--a triangular blade is far harder to make and for the infantryman to maintain in the field...Round is easiest, flat is easier, triangular is a pain in the arse...Look at some of the SMLE WW1 bayonets that were just a pointy round thing sticking out from under the barrel because they were cheap and quick to produce...

They went away from triangular bayonets for a simple reason, as guns got shorter--compared to a Brown Bess Musket--bayonets had to get longer to keep the same length which was to act as a pike in a square to fend off mounted attacks...The longer triangular blades were found to be much weaker--In the hot desert sun they would actually droop (The term a limp **** is attributed to this phenomenon) --and bent very easily when stabbed into somebody or thing unless they were made super thick so conventional style blades were used instead as they wouldn't bend or droop...

It also meant that the MOD didn't have to issue a knife as well as a bayonet so it was done also as a cost cutting measure...triangular blades could only stab but a regular blade could slice and butter bread and cut your food so one less utensil to issue...

You know those grooves on the sides of bayonets, they're called blood grooves and they were put there to help prevent the bayonet from sticking in the body--they allowed blood and more importantly air to escape so a vacuum wouldn't form although they did work well they didn't completely eradicate the problem of stuck bayonets and why we were taught to stab and twist and withdraw...The triangular blades were notorious for sticking and twisting didn't help any...Lots of stories where guys would have to stand on the body and pull the bayonet out or with magazine rifles they would shoot a bullet into the body causing the vacuum to release the blade...

The first bayonets were flat, basically a big assed knife with a tapered handle that fit into the barrel of the gun --called plug bayonets and had a habit of coming out when stabbed into someone so soldiers tied them to their firelocks and then the socket bayonet came about that slipped onto the end of the barrel and was held buy a twisted channel and a thick stub...

The reason you won't find bayonets on the Hague Convention is because there aren't any listed there...EXCEPT that during WW1 if you were caught with a modified bayonet, I.E. sawing the back into a large gapped saw blade primarily; your chances of "Quarter or Kammerad" were at best a snowball's chance in Hell...You would be usually stabbed, repeatedly, with your own bayonet and left to suffer until you died...That was just something that both sides agreed upon not by any legal paper telling them they can't which the Geneva Convention most surely does but by consensus...

As to the brass knuckle knife I was always led to believe that there was a 1934 US Federal Law prohibiting them but that only covers interstate transport/sale of switchblades but there are numerous state, county and municipal laws that prevent you from carrying brass knuckles with or without a blade attached and some places even the ownership of either is "verboten!"
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Old 12-11-2009, 11:14 PM
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the "blood groove" is called a fuller and its to strenghten the blade if you think im full of **** google knife fuller or wikipedia it

What is a Blood Groove For?
This question comes up every 8 months or so. The blood groove on a knife probably is derived from the channel present on swords, where it is called a "fuller". There are some persistent myths floating around about the function of blood grooves, from "releases the vacuum when the knife is thrust into a person" to "no functional use, purely decorative". Let's talk about these wrong answers first, before we talk about the right answers.


Wrong Answer #1: Releasing the Body Suction

Basically, this theory postulates that the blood groove is present to facilitate withdrawing the knife from a person/animal. In this scenario, it is said that the animal's muscles contract around the knife blade, and that this causes a vacuum, which makes the knife difficult to withdraw. But on a knife with a blood groove, blood runs through the blood groove and breaks the suction, so the knife can be withdrawn with less difficulty.

One problem is that there's no evidence that this suction ever really happens. Also, over and over again people report that there is no difference whatsoever in the difficulty of withdrawing a knife with a blood groove vs. one without. This is one theory that has been tested and found wanting.

Yes, I realize you may have heard this myth from your deadly knife instructor, or read it in a book somewhere. But the experts agree that it is false. If your knife can cut its way in, it can just as easily cut its way out, with or without a blood groove.

And with that, I am going to change terminology from "blood groove" to "fuller", since we all now know the so-called "blood groove" is not playing a blood-channeling function.

Wrong Answer #2: Purely Decorative

There is a grain of truth to this one. Although a fuller does play a functional role, on a short knife the effect might be so small as to be insignificant. Many believe the fuller plays a strictly decorative role on knives or swords under 2 feet long. As the knife or sword gets bigger, the fuller plays an increasingly important role. On smaller knives, it is indeed probably just decorative.

Right Answers:

Okay, so what substantive role does the blood groove/fuller play? The bottom line is, it does two things:

1. It stiffens the blade 2. It lightens the blade

That first statment has been the subject of some controversy, with some people sending me equations purporting to show that the removal of material cannot make the blade stiffer. I will table for now the question of "does the blade get stiffer, in some absolute sense, due to the fuller?" Rather, I'll weaken the claim to say that the blade *feels* stiffer to the user who is waving it around -- because it's stiffer for its weight.

I'll reproduce a post by Jim Hrisoulas which lays things out clearly (re-printed with permission):

When you fuller a blade you do several things:

1: You lighten it by using less material, as the act of forging in the fuller actually widens the blade, so you use less material than you would if you forged an unfullered blade. (In stock removal the blade would also be lighter, as you would be removing the material instead of leaving it there).

2: You stiffen the blade. In an unfullered blade, you only have a "single" center spine. This is especially true in terms of the flattened diamond cross section common to most unfullered double- edged blades. This cross section would be rather "whippy" on a blade that is close to three feet long. Fullering produces two "spines" on the blade, one on each side of the fuller where the edge bevels come in contact with the fuller. This stiffens the blade, and the difference between a non-fullered blade and a fullered one is quite remarkable.

Fullers on knives do the same thing, although on a smaller blade the effects are not as easily seen or felt. Actually looking at fullers from an engineering point of view they really are a sophisticated forging technique, and it was the fullered swordblade that pointed the way to modern "I" beam construction.

When combined with proper distal tapers, proper heat treating and tempering, a fullered blade will, without a doubt, be anywhere from 20% to 35% lighter than a non-fullered blade without any sacrifice of strength or blade integrity.

Fullers were not "blood grooves" or there to "break the suction" or for some other grisly purpose. They served a very important structural function. That's all. I have spent the last 27 years studying this and I can prove it beyond any doubt...

Source: rec.knives Newsgroup May 1998
Old 12-13-2009, 11:47 AM
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The SOE used them in WWII.
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Old 12-14-2009, 03:18 PM
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Call it a fuller or indents or channels or flukes or dimples or bohi (Japanese) or what it really is a cannelure...A central fuller is different then the fuller I was referring to…A fuller is usually a groove(s) or risers a raised section(s) down the centre of the blade, for strength and lightness…Used to strengthen the blade, to stiffen the blade and to lighten the blade sure, absolutely, no question whatsoever, 100% in agreement...I’m sorry in calling it a blood groove (but it was all that came to mind when I wrote it) and perpetuating the myth…Which myth? The blood channel or the blade getting stuck? The first I have no knowledge of and the latter, although not first hand, the next best thing to it, forty uncles and great uncles, cousins and nephews I think…

As to the vacuum effect, unfortunately I've never experienced it first hand as I've never had to bayonet anyone, stab them with a knife yes, bayonet on the end of a rifle, no! Some of my relatives, on the other hand have! We have had members serving the British crown, taken the King’s shilling, from Redcoats in the F&I War and as Green and Redcoats in the Rev War (we were kicked out of the Colonies to Upper Canada for being Royalists), 1812-14, Crimea, India, Zululand, Boer 1 & 2, WW1, WW2 and lastly Korea and almost all did experience vacuum sucking the blade...We have this from their memoirs (those that could write) passed down through the centuries (and now located in the Museums in Ottawa, Chicago, Smithsonian, Manitoba and in unit museum collections in Great Britain) and of course word of mouth from surviving family members and their (now mostly late) friends...Most of the WW1 guys died when I was young but a good number lasted into my teens (1960s & 70s) and we'd all listen to their stories at family functions--especially Remembrance Day or whatever you call it, Nov. 11th...

The opening to allow air to escape, erroneously, but commonly, called a blood groove is that small indentation (a fuller actually) just below the spine of the blade, usually a forte (strong section) et pre le (and before the) ricasso, and seen best on the likes of USMC Fighting Knives by Ka-Bar or the Marble’s Camp Blade series…The theory behind it’s usage and development is told by too many service men/instructors, martial artists, knife makers et al over the years from the time of Frederick the Great to the present day so I'll have to take then at their word...

They did lots of bayonet work in the trenches in WW1…We were told that this vacuum phenomenon was created mostly when the bayonet (or knife) was rammed with great force in the Hun’s body, say after seeing the SOB kill a friend of yours and if you didn’t twist the blade when ramming it, it would get stuck and be hard to very hard to extract…Sometimes they had to shoot a round into the body to break the “air pocket” so it would release…I’ve read and heard of other incidents where the blade was in the stomach and the Tommy would be jumping up and down on the dead (sometimes) soldier’s stomach, yanking at the rifle and screaming expletives while trying to free it…Had it been into the rib cage and got stuck between the ribs or pushed hard into a bone that’s a different matter altogether and there is no saying that the blade didn’t get stuck in the spinal column when rammed home…

The relaters of these incidents, and many, many more, were my family and of course the NCOs when I was in the service who have also then perpetuate this "myth" of vacuum under a stab and the reason for the twist before removal and the erroneous purpose of the flukes...If you want to call my great uncle, a retired RSM--Regimental Sergeant Major--a liar for telling me the vacuum/groove theory go ahead cause I sure the Hell won't and he's ninety seven (Tues just past) and he got it not from hand me down stories from his ancestors (which they probably did) but the British Army Training Manual, c.1943 and having his blade stick in I think three or four Japanese during WW2 before and after he was captured and sent to a work camp alà “Bridge on the River Kwai”...

Of course the bayonets (originally baïonnette, from Bayonne, France) were derived from swords as most big knives did from medieval to Renaissance times -- then rapiers became more prominent and the triangular blade was in its heyday...How many big knives derived from cut back swords have you ever seen in major European Arms or Castle Museums, me personally, a few hundred, as they would not throw away a very expensive and still usable, albeit shorter, implement that with a bit of grinding/shaping is a new knife with a sword’s hilt...

The manual of arms for bayonet fighting, blade detached, is almost like a sword fighting manual as you do have a short sword (16” to 24”) there so the moves should be appropriate…With bayonet attached there is hardly any difference from the 1720s manual of arms, 1810 manual, 1870s manual and to the 1943 manual except for some new equipment added to the frog and bayonet—like a slip ring/socket and barrel ring, nomenclature that had changed over the years due to technological advancements but stab, recover, parry lunge are all the same…

During the F+I War the shoulder strap would hold the plug bayonet and a hanger (short enlisted man's sword) and light companies like Rogers may have carried a tomahawk there instead of the hanger...

Go back to the Napoleonic War and the introduction of the Baker Rifle, which was quite short so they took an old short sword (hanger) and put a slotted sleeve on the quillion and voila a bayonet that was a short sword as well and brought the length to almost that of a Bessie with pig sticker attached...

It has been remarked by numerous surgeons during many different conflicts that they hardly, if ever, treated bayonet victims...Then again they only cared for those they could save, usually gun shot or sabre wounds and based their findings on that as they didn't do body retrieval and noting the method of demise!
Old 12-14-2009, 05:18 PM
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I found a bayonnet from war of 1812 in niagra (ont). Its 3 sided liek a trianglee but the sideds are concaved. It is a dirty dirty tool. over 18 inches and about 4 pounds of cast iron. They are illegal for just that reasons they cant be stiched up and stay open and get infected.
Old 12-14-2009, 07:31 PM
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If you saw the movie ' Breaker Morant" it talked about Dum Dum ammo. It also was banned by the Geneva Convention. It was the first expanding ammo.
Old 12-14-2009, 07:36 PM
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So true,however the dagger minimizes other uses of the blade.and always
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