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Old 10-30-2009, 12:08 AM
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Default Long Range Precision: 243 vs. 260 vs. 308



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Greetings, and thanks in advance for your thoughts on my somewhat esoteric question. Scenario: extended conflict due to division of the formerly united states...hopefully this won't happen until I'm too old to be useful to my clan as a footsoldier, so I hope to offer precision aimed fire from mostly fixed defensive positions as my contribution to the "effort". I intend to invest in a high quality rifle and scope, using a Savage 12FVSS .308 as the basis...on a limited budget, so I have to get it right the first time, which means buying the best possible barrel (probably Krieger). Oh yes, and I do handload.

.308 is ubiquitous and accurate and efficient - but the best .260 Remington (6.5mm-08) and .243 (6mm-08) bullets fly "better" past about 700 yards, making long shot placement easier. Yes, I would also consider 7mm-08.

.243 is plentiful, but prone to rapid barrel wear and from what I read tends to be more finicky in matching load to barrel.

.260 is so great in so many ways; brass is easy enough to form from .308, but bullets are not yet that plentiful...yet.

So is the increased performance of 6mm or 6.5mm (or 7mm) over 7.62mm worth the risk of potentially inadequate ammunition availability in a conflict environment (reduced or non-existent production)? Certainly I would stockpile in sanctuary as many components as possible beforehand, but once those are gone, I'd be left firing whatever could be scrounged...again, .308 would probably be plentiful, .243 less so, but I don't know about 6.5mm or 7mm bullets. Can I use current bullet production/sales volume as a predictor of future availability?
Old 10-30-2009, 01:54 AM
funfaler funfaler is offline
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First off, I have no experience with 243 or 260, so I am not offering a comparison.

The 308 is more than accurate enough and capable out past 500 yards.

Since there is not indication in your post about your experience in shooting there is little specifics as to what you mean by "so I hope to offer precision aimed fire from mostly fixed defensive positions "

If one is looking at ranges of 600 yards and in, I would be very inclined to look at a semi-auto rifle (M1A or FAL, in this order), which would be 308. These rifles will accurately and easily get lead on targets to 600 yards. All the while affording quicker shots and a more sustained string of fire.

If you have the knowledge and skill to shoot accurately, then the 308 will do the job nicely. If you don't, then spending the money on special equipment and ammo will not do it for you.

Getting this skill and knowledge is easier than most people realize. And shooting accurately out to 600 yards does not require specialized equipment. I have seen a scoped standard FAL shoot 8, 4 inch targets (clay pigeons) at 500 yards, without a miss.

I have shot an iron sighted Standard M1a to 500 yards, hitting a 20" x 24" steel plate 20 times in less than 60 seconds, from the prone position (no bench/bipod).
(both with surplus ammo, South African to be specific).

With you reloading, you may find you can load more accurate rounds than the surplus.

308 is well proven, it works, so my attitude is "why fix it". You made mention of the issues with 243 and 260 availability. I would also prefer the higher energy/bullet weight from the 308 than the other two for the longer ranges.
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Old 10-30-2009, 09:30 AM
tenyearsgone28 tenyearsgone28 is offline
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Woah! Back away from the PS3 and let the zombies rest!

Ok now that we've taken your crazy azz scenario out of the way let's talk ballistics.

1. .243. Not enough bullet for a couple reasons. Too much wind drift and not enough power to reach out. When's the last time you saw the military or NRA using it for matches? Umm never. Just look at most states hunting laws, they require bigger bllets for bigger game for a reason.

2. .260. See above explaination.

Besides have you actually ever shot at anything over 200 meters? It's harder than just putting crosshairs on it and jerking the trigger as the crosshairs pass over it.
Old 10-30-2009, 10:04 AM
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There are lots of 6.5mm bullets out there, maybe even more the 6mm...They offer far better BC with their slightly longer bodies...

If you're keeping your shots to within 400 yds then any of them would do including the 7mm-08 but after that the .243 drops off energy wise for reliable kills on large game, 500 yds takes the .260 out, 600 yds the 7mm-08 and 800 yds the .308...Of course you can make shots farther out then the ones I posted but these are IMO the ideal ranges...Mass and velocity = penetration...

The military is switching their longer range shots from the .308 to the .300 Win Mag or WSM to 1,000 yds and the .338 Lapua for beyond but they've also added the DSM (Designated Squad Marksman) position to the ROE (Rules of Engagement) where a scoped M14 is aiding the 5.56 M16/M4 equipped soldiers in the 200 to 400 yd range and keeping the M40 sniper rifle for beyond that...You might have one or two snipers for a company but you could have ten to even fifteen/sixteen DSMs...

Two of my daughter use the 7mm-08 for hunting, another her .257 Roberts and another her 6.5x55 Swede and all kill very well...The only .260 I have is in a heavy barreled varmint configuration which is deadly on prairie pooches to 1,000 yds but far too heavy to carry in the field--9KG/18 lbs...

Try Berger Bullets for your 6mm, 6.5mm, 6.8mm, 7mm bullets...they are absolutely devastating on game...Swampworks, formerly JLK Bullets has a lovely 140 gr 6.5mm VLD...

Your thinking is excellent in trying to get into the 7.62mm/.308 Win family for your reloading needs as you can get commercially ammo from .243 to .358 (.375 even) and wildcats from .17 to .400 all using the most common mid calibre round out there--which assures you of a pile of brass...

I'd take the .260 hands down to 500 yds as there is less recoil so shooting is more enjoyable for longer periods behind the gun and second choice the .308...Both calibres are available in bolt action as well as semi auto in the Browning BAR/FN SBAR as well as the AR15/AR10 format...Even DSA offers the FAL in other calibres then .308 but the Springfield M14 is only in .308...
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Old 10-30-2009, 07:18 PM
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All three of these calibers are accurate enough for precision shooting. You are right to concentrate on the quality of the barrel and the chambering job. You might consider having the barrel chambered with a tight chamber neck. It will cost you a new reamer (about $100) and you will have to turn your case necks, but then again if you reload your own ammo you will likely just reuse the same 200 cases anyway. I would look at buying a bunch (1000 bullets) of bergers or sierra match kings in 6.5mm and build the 260 rem.

btw, The 243 is not the only caliber that tends to burn out the throat. If you build anything unusual using a Savage, buy and keep the reamer and a barrel nut wrench. With a savage you can just cut off the back of the barrel and recut the chamber.
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Old 10-30-2009, 09:41 PM
patcash patcash is offline
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To make a theoretical comparison, you'll need a ballistics calculator: http://www.handloads.com/calc/

Next you'll need to know the ballistic coefficients of the bullets you'll be using:
http://www.sierrabullets.com/bullets...ient-rifle.pdf
http://www.hornady.com/shop/?page=sh...def283933b7f92

You'll need to get the muzzle velocity from loading manuals: Hornady, Lyman, Speer & Sierra are good ones.

If you want free data:
http://www.imrpowder.com/PDF/Hodgdon...c%20Manual.pdf

You can plug in the maximum loads and bullets with best ballistic coefficients and see how much better one cartridge is than another.

Before I got a laser rangefinder, I paid more attention to bullet path. For example, if I estimated a target was at 400yd and it was really 10% more or 440yd, could I hit a 12 inch vital area if I could shoot 1 inch groups at 100yd?

Now that I can estimate range within a yard, I worry more about wind. If the crosswind I estimate at 10mph is really 11mph, will it throw me out of that 12 inch circle at 600yd?

So far, I have never found a rifle that shoots best with the fastest muzzle velocity and the bullet with the best ballistic coefficient. I have been cursed with rifles that liked lighter bullets or lighter loads. Overall, the improved accuracy extended my maximum effective range, but it turned all my theoretical calculations into an amusing math problem.

A good shot with a 30-30 can take a deer at 200 yd while a bad shot with a 300 magnum will miss at 50 yd.

It is fun doing the theoretical stuff, but your mileage may vary in the real world. That is what really makes it fun!
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Old 10-31-2009, 08:31 PM
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What's long range in your book? 200 yards is long range shooting for me. Many calibers will do the job, pick a common one. The person that lets me use his 300 yard range hunting anything you can hunt in Montana with a .260. 350-500 yard shots is his range of operation. Puts Elk off their feet and in the dirt.

Simple brainless shots are with-in the guns zero range. My slow old girl .30-30 is 200 yards. Faster things are 300 yards plus. I see a lot of shooters at the public range I frequent. Overall, the smaller the caliber, the better they do. I see many many very accurate .223 and .243 shooters. You need to answer a few questions. What are you hunting and where are you hunting it. You might be very happy with a .223 bolt rifle. Cheap ammo costs, plentiful, low recoil, and easy on scopes. I have seen some photos of quality soft point .223 ammo used on deer in the 150-200 yard range. Not massive damage, but produces clean kills in the vital area.

According to your original post, your concerned about protection than long range hunting. Survivalism in the defense department has alot to do with criminal incidents than typical warfare. Many situation will be at very close ranges. Your ability to shoot multiple targets in a very short amount of time is more important than splitting hairs two cow pastures away.

A decent option for you may be a higher end AR. Since you said hunting isn't main goal, a powerful round is not a main desire. A stopped attack is your goal, not a quick clean kill with minimal tracking like in large game hunting. You also did not mention anything about hand loading either. Is 400 yards good enough? I know nothing about AR's so I can't tell ya what's good to use. IT covers some decent range and has the ability to do multiple close range shots quickly. .308 rifle is an option too, but can be expensive to buy and keep loaded without reloading.

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Old 10-31-2009, 08:36 PM
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.308 will probably be the best all around choice and what i would choose from the calibers given . I prefer the 7mm Mag myself .
Old 10-31-2009, 09:04 PM
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i think they are all pretty good but one thing to keep in mind for a servival gun. cheap bulk ammo def .308 my son shot a coyot @ 1100 yards
last weekend with my 18 inch remington and cheap gun show ammo and he is only 13
Old 11-03-2009, 09:50 PM
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Criminy! With a .308? That's all the proof I need! Thanks for setting the bar high...I wish my eyesight was still as good as it was when I was 13!
Old 11-03-2009, 10:04 PM
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IRT SailingHudson25...thanks for the reply! As I'm new to the forum and blogging in general, not sure how kosher it is to go into my "kooky" post-doomsday scenarios...at the risk of sounding like a kook, I'll go out on a limb and say I feel I've got the short-range (0-200 yards) defense, and hunting, covered (Rem 870, AK, 30-30 and 357mag lever guns)...if the situation presented something like an organized gang, I'd hope to be able to deter them from approaching whatever hide/haven/sanctuary/village, what have you, I had the privilege of defending...keep them off so the close fight wouldn't develop. 800 yards seems a good perimeter goal in open or hilly country, even in an urban environment it would be nice to have that capability. So far I haven't seen a lot of people on here planning for general chaos, wherein hunting might be dangerous in and of itself (due to increased competition), and would probably deplete a good deal of the easier prey pretty quickly. So yes, I'm thinking defense against two-legged competitors...also, if you must know, I'm not above planning for militia-style reaction to a Reconquista scenario, but again, I don't know whether or not we talk about things like that on here...

Last edited by Bobby McQuick; 11-03-2009 at 10:06 PM.. Reason: I wnated to reply to one specific commentor, not sure how to do that, so I edited it by adding his name.
Old 11-03-2009, 10:10 PM
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patcash...thanks for the reply! Good things to think about...I have a chrono so I hope to develop the load that prints the tightest, then compute the trajectory so I can dope it out to various ranges. I plan to buy the best barrel I can afford (now THERE's a topic where I'm sure everybody has an opinion!), hoping that it will be less sensitive to load specifics and will shoot many loads with less variation. I'm leaning towards .308, even though it's not as flat as some others, it is still consistent and predictable (accurate) and ubiquitous.
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Old 11-03-2009, 10:15 PM
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tenyearsgone28...thanks, I do actually appreciate the sentiment, same as my wife gives me...GET REAL! But I'm too old for videogames...I do however listen to the news and look at what's going on around me, and I see an ever-increasing signs of fervent nationalism...foreign nationalism...and if you study history you might start to get a sense of where that can lead, especially when you realize that recent immigrants usually vote with their hearts, not their heads, and not necessarily with the best interests of the United States in mind...a big enough voting bloc with a heartfelt commitment to the interests of a competitor nation might actually change things for the worse...and isn't survivalism about risk mitigation?
Old 11-03-2009, 10:21 PM
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funfaler...great thoughts, reinforcing me leaning towards building a super performance .308...I wanted to feel out some opinions because I already have 3 .308s (one factory bolt gun and two autoloaders), so I felt like maybe I should think about something else...but as you say, if it works why fix it? I can justify having so many .308s by remembering that they are an heirloom investment for my kids and younger kin. After this build, if finances allow, I may look at something different....260 Rem still really intrigues me...maybe a Springfield 03 re-barreled to .270?
Old 11-03-2009, 10:29 PM
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SeekHer - great post, thanks! So many great insights in there it will take me a while to digest them all. You just made me want a .260 even more! Still, after these posts, I'm leaning towards another .308 for this next build. I'm sure I'll find a forum for quality barrel makers, but as I said I'm looking at Krieger and having them do the install and action truing...that alone will run about $700, and since I don't have money to burn, I want to get it right the first time.
Old 11-03-2009, 10:33 PM
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i spend so much time and money looking for the ult cal and always seem to get back to
the basics. in the last year .300wsm,.270wsm,all 3 ultramags, 460cheytac,more ar15
and ar10 and im shure im missing somthing but all i realy shoot is my .308,7mm,.223
.308 is soon to be my long range deer and elk rifle
some .308 pic and look at remington law inforsment web sight they have
a new 20 inch fluted barell .308 with a green web stock this will be my next rifle.
Old 11-04-2009, 06:18 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bobby McQuick View Post
SeekHer - great post, thanks! So many great insights in there it will take me a while to digest them all. You just made me want a .260 even more! Still, after these posts, I'm leaning towards another .308 for this next build. I'm sure I'll find a forum for quality barrel makers, but as I said I'm looking at Krieger and having them do the install and action truing...that alone will run about $700, and since I don't have money to burn, I want to get it right the first time.
You're welcome!

Kreiger are top notch and you shan't have any problems with their workmanship...

Why not a switch barrel...same action and stock but two separate barrels, one in .260 in a heavy contour for varmints or regular for hunting and the other in .308...switching takes all of two, three minutes with the barrel wrench provided by the barrel maker--clamp it down, turn barrel out, insert and turn barrel in, unclamp, shoot; real hard, no?
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Old 11-04-2009, 02:56 PM
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You're not too far from some real good large game hunting like elk.

Pick up something in .30-06. It can handle anything you need. You can get 180 and 200 grain loads for elk hunting.


Personally, I think you OK with what you have. But, having more toys in the shed ain't horrible either.
Old 11-06-2009, 07:10 AM
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First, as said here before, most people talk a nice game about these long 400-500 yard shots, but most haven't even tried it. That a long way in anyone's book. Do you have any idea how much a slight wind will drift a bullet at that distance? Long range shots should be left to experts who train for such a thing. The average shooter, even a more than average shooter is taking a big chance for a miss or worse a wound that isn't fatal.

Ballistic coefficients are great, and they do indeed mean something, but accuracy trumps everything. If you can't hit it, why bother? There are many great bullets for all calibers talked about, and high BC bullets too, but they aren't the easiest to make shoot well. The VLD bullets (very low drag) take some doing to get pinpoint accuracy from them. It's not impossible, but not always easy.

With all this in mind, and considering the availability of ammo, I would vote for the 308. Reloading components are plentiful (at least they are made, whether you can find them is another matter). It is a very easy and forgiving cartridge, it likes many powders, can handle bullets up to 175 grain quite well, it just plain works. And for buying loaded ammo, you would find 308's probably more readily than many others.

The Savage rifle has quite a good reputation for out-of-the-box accuracy. It ain't exactly pretty, but they do shoot. It's a good choice. From there a Remington is the way to go. If money wasn't as much as an issue, I would buy the Remington in the first place. A entire industry has been built around the Remington action. As with any mass-produced product, there are good ones and not so good ones. But, with a 700 Remington, any proper riflesmith can make it great!

I've shot benchrest competition for 15 years, and shot everything from 100 yards to 1000 yards. I've tried all of the listed cartridges and more. I do riflesmithing for many competitors, and have tried every available top-shelf barrel maker there is. They all have good and bad stuff at times. You really can't single out any particular one as best.

Keep it simple, it always works out better.

Oh, and one more thing. Get the proper stuff to clean the rifle with. A one piece cleaning rod, a bore guide and some good solvent. Clean the barrel regularly, and leave a very light film of oil in the barrel. Keep the chamber dry. And never use anything but lighter fluid in and on the trigger.

So many people go out and get a gun but never realize why it looses accuracy after shooting a couple boxes of ammo.

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Old 11-06-2009, 11:31 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tenyearsgone28 View Post
Woah! Back away from the PS3 and let the zombies rest!

Ok now that we've taken your crazy azz scenario out of the way let's talk ballistics.

1. .243. Not enough bullet for a couple reasons. Too much wind drift and not enough power to reach out. When's the last time you saw the military or NRA using it for matches? Umm never. Just look at most states hunting laws, they require bigger bllets for bigger game for a reason.

2. .260. See above explaination.

Besides have you actually ever shot at anything over 200 meters? It's harder than just putting crosshairs on it and jerking the trigger as the crosshairs pass over it.
Ummm.....noooooo........ see number 1 above. 6mm or .243 holds most of the top accuracy records upto and beyond 1000 yards. The most accurate rounds right now are the 6mm PPC and the 6mm Bench Rest (Remington).

I've even read where the smallest 1000 yard group was from a 6mm at just over 3". These are experienced long range shooters with custom guns though. They also hand load to the umteeth degree of accuracy and sort everything out by 20 different degrees of difference. They also handload on the day of the match to compensate for daily conditions.

Now what the .308 brings to the table is down range power and comminality. I'd rather go with an AR10 in .243, 7-08, .308 or .338 Federal.

It brings more firepower to the table and is more accurate than an FAL and just as accurate as an M1A. It also isn't as finicky about ammo as the M1A. The lower reciever parts are common with AR15s and parts are everywhere.

From a semi all the rounds are accurate enough and should print around or under 1" at 100 meters from a quality standard rifle once the proper round is found.

I have a DPMS .308 and will be testing it out shortly for accuracy once I do a break in, can't find enough rounds right now. $1050 delivered from www.rguns.net

I will be getting an AR15 in 6ppc but not sure when it's comming in. This only has handloads.

So if you want down range accuracy then 6mm is the most accurate but unless you're competition shooting all of them are accurate enough. If you want down range power then .338 Federal hits like a heavy .30-06.

If you want the best choice in many different areas then the .308 has it. The AR 10 with a HBAR will shoot right along side of any standard bolt action.

Swap the upper for any caliber of your choice also. It will feed any .308 based cartridge without even changing the magazine or bolt. Have one for hunting and one for target shooting. I plan on getting 2 new uppers myself. 1 in .243 and the other in .338F.

I hope this help with your buying plans.
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