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At what point do people stop being Civilized?

19K views 155 replies 89 participants last post by  Texas Patriot 
#1 ·
We all talk about SHTF and TEOTWAWKI. We all talk about wars, invasions and tyranny. We all talk about a dollar collapse and economic collapse. We all talk about government collapse and secession. We all talk about inflation and starvation. All of these are certainly bad things.

In my mind, the worst collapse will be the social collapse, most likely brought on by one of the above, where a large portion of the population stops being civil to their fellow man. Where we are fighting for our lives against our own neighbors, brother and sisters, and fellow countrymen; a time when rule of law no longer exists, and the line between good and bad, right and wrong will be blurred. It will be the time when we do things we never thought possible.

I fear this time. I prepare for this time. What will push us to this point of no being civilized to our fellow man?
 
#6 ·
I, as well as meany others saw a video of a teen boy in Chicago get beaten to death with a 2x4. We also saw meany quickly become uncivilized in New Orleans. We all saw a man get a brick to the head in the Rodney King riots in LA. I don't think it will take much for our population to be killing each other for food, water, sex or what ever else.
 
#8 ·
Like many other questions about individuals, the answer will vary widely wit the individual in question.

SOme, possibly the earliest will become uncivilized when they realize that no one is watching, they are no longer constrained by LEO or accountable. This crew turns savage between the initial event and two days, they are your initial threat and may be present in riots or gangs (NOTE: well disciplined gangs may conserve assets and gather information biding their time until later)

Be prepared to deal with this people out of your GHB and CCW.

Others when their food, medicine or other goods they typically purchased run out (include, cigs, beer, porn); between day two and one week.

Be prepared to deal with these out of a BOB.

Yet others will become so when they realize no help is coming, no FEMA rescue, i'd say about one to two weeks for this crowd.

Be prepared to deal with these from your BOL. In some cases recruit critical skills.
Labor for Board arrangements.

Finally the organized predators, or roadgangs will come out, they will be equipped to take what they want from small groups of preppers, basically almost everybody here on this board and will seek out sources of supply to raid or loot. They may be capable of overcoming small communities or forted up family groups. They will appear between three weeks to two months after OPAW. These people are looking for your BOL. This group may include former LEOs and security contractors.

SO expect multiple different waves of people to go feral as each group reaches its trigger.

Some people might see the first group as the biggest problem, i don't, they are easiest dissuaded by a threat of forceful response by an individual.

I see the last group as the greatest problem. They will not be dissuaded by the resistance of an individual, they have to be actually be stopped, and individual effort will not be sufficient. This is why I form groups.

It is my opinion that any group with less than six operators will be ineffective or compromised as you move down the list.
 
#73 ·
When will it become Uncivilized? One second after.

I said no group would survive with less than six operators.
Four most go out. If one is injured one can stay with and two can go for help without a man leaving alone. Two others can pull security on their base camp.

Six can pull security and only have a shift every other night (24/7 a watcher)

Imagine this: You are negotiating with four steely eyed grim bearded men well armed, accoutered and bearing body armor.

Things will get uncivilized one second after you make the wrong choice.
In the instant the match .308 goes through your forehead.
I did say six didn't I.

A crowd will jump one man without hesitation, and two with some misgiving.
Three they will weigh and find wanting. Four is a challenge.

Six, well
the Horsemen of the Apocalypse draw nigh
you can come if you want to
 
#9 ·
As I live in the city (Milwaukee) I frequently contemplate how a large city would react to a sudden disaster. There are many good people here. There are also people who have absolutely no idea how to act like decent human beings. They are completely dependent upon government and other organizations to meet their basic needs such as food and shelter. They have no concept of procuring those things for themselves.

Now, first sign of trouble we are OUT of here, heading to the family farm. But how will those people react? Will they simply sit and wait, then perhaps riot when no one serves them food? Will they ever start walking out of the city? How will this affect the suburbs?
 
#10 ·
Like Urban said, there are many people that are uncivilized and already do what they think they could get away with. Get rid of someone to enforce laws and they will do what they only fantasize about now. I worked at a humane society for a few years and the things I saw people do to animals would make most people sick. And these people were often the most controling and upstanding citizens of the area. Studies show that people who hurt animals would do the same to other people if they thought they could get away with it. Empathy is a very rare comodity. People talk a good talk but their actions are what actually show if they will be civilized if there were no laws to hold them back. If they aren't being good now (helping others, not forcing their religious views on others, taking care of their animals) they will be so bad when there are no rules that it will be hard to remember they are human at all except in the biological sense.
 
#12 ·
I think Halkon pretty much hit the nail on the head, especially with the organized predators. After all these years there are still many cities and towns of the former Soviet States that are still controlled by organized crime.

For a good read here is an article from 2006 that describes everything from LEO to armed thugs still using force 15 years later.
http://www.nytimes.com/2006/05/08/business/worldbusiness/08iht-cheat.html
 
#95 ·
I am originally from Russia and I have many family members there. I can tell you that all over Russia organized crime is still in control on a local basis and in some ways on a national basis. On the world stage the national government is in control but in some ways they are even puppets... It is getting better there though.
 
#14 ·
There's only a thin veneer of civility even now. Society has been rotting for decades. If you watch how people interact when they think it doesn't matter, like when they're driving. You'll see how little they care about anyone but theirselves even now.

I agree with Halkon. I think it'll come in waves. When services are disrupted, people will sit around in shock for a few days. Then when nothing gets fixed, they'll go on a rioting and burning binge. Their anger satisfied, they'll sit around a while longer waiting for something to be done again. When it isn't, then fear, panic and desperation will set in and the real problems begin.

This is where the general lack of values in our society will show it's ugly side. You'll have neighbors attacking neighbors for what they have. Normally "decent" (by our standards anyway) people victimizing others to feed their families. Friends attacking friends that they know might have food or water. Even family members attacking other family members. It's going to get ugly.

Those that survive the initial breakdown and violence will see their behavior rewarded and will be hardened by it. This will become their survival strategy and they'll probably begin to band together, or join with bands of criminals. These are the ones who worry me the most. Desperate, well armed, with enough different minds all trying to think up the most effective way to attack survivors, to come up with creative solutions.

This is why I try to get people to externalize their thinking when it comes to defense. Stop thinking "how will I keep them out" and start thinking like the criminal. "How would I get in". If there's a weakness, they'll find it. By thinking like them, you'll find it too and know how to fix it.
 
#20 ·
Why should the American people be civilized when the US govt is out of control itself?

Fascism should rightly be called Corporatism, as it is the merger of corporate and government power.
Benito Mussolini
We have corrupt bought and paid for politicians in DC, a govt that is bailing out elite well connected private corporations, and one that lies constantly.

Read my lips, no more new taxes. I didn't have sex with that woman, Ms. Lewinsky. Sadam Hussein has weapons of mass destruction and ties to Al-Qaeda. If we don't pass the stimulus bill, unemployment will hit 8.5% in 2009 and hit 9% in 2010. ect...

If you're too big to fail, you get a bail out. If you're an average American just trying to get by, you're lucky if you can get food stamps.

We have to add 120k jobs a month just to keep up with the population, yet we're loosing hundreds of thousands each month.

We have young people graduating from colleges with tens of thousands in debt and are lucky if they get a job stocking shelves at Walmart at 3am.

We have elderly people dependent on social security, living below the poverty line.

People are becoming uncivilized because they are losing hope. It's more than just their jobs, their house, their 401k that's vanishing. Their futures are being robbed from them.

Just my 2 cents.
 
#21 ·
Why should the American people be civilized when the US govt is out of control itself?
Because it's the right thing to do.

People are uncivilized because the sense of community and need for personal responsibility have been stripped away decades ago. What's left is a bunch of people who no longer care about each other and only care about themselves. We, as a whole, no longer think in terms of "we" and "us". Now it's all me, me, me.

Survival then and now:

Then: "The Johnson family's house burned down. "WE" need to pull together as a community and help them build another."
Now: "Good, now they'll have to move on. That's 4 less mouths to feed from the community farm."

Then: "The Johnson's tractor broke. "WE" need to go help with their planting."
Now: "I ain't doin' sh*t unless they pay me."

Ok, not good examples, but you get the idea.
 
#22 ·
I think in smaller rural communities you will have fewer problems with lawlessness if there was a complete breakdown you would probably see a return to the old west style of justice with very harsh penalties for breaking the law. Sure there may be some outlaws or bands of marauders but it would take a small army to overrun a community of 1000+ However, this is assuming strong leadership from the start of the collapse.
 
#35 ·
Once the food runs out and the crazies are tearing people up the sheeple will come streaming out of the cities all headed for the rural areas. It would be the size of an army. An army however is disiplined and under control. The refugees anything but controlled and will be doing whatever it takes to feed their children. The farmers would most likely do pretty well against the hordes of refugees at first but sooner or later they will be worn down. Lack of massive amounts of ammo, medical supplies, and attrition due countless firefights will get them in the end. The surviving farmers will be the ones who learned to shoot first and don't bother to ask questions.

Todesking
 
#23 ·
Studies have shown that the % of people who will kill you for food, ect. are actually very small. Granted most research comes from Russia during wwII, and China WWII, communist revolution, and famine research. Overall the common response to continued high stress appears to be a mind numbing apathy. Dispite the low opinion people here seem to have of their fellow citizens. Most will not turn into crazed killers. Of course none of this matters cause their not the ones "we" have to worry about and prepare for. I'm not saying to lower your guard just don't be so trigger happy. Those who do get caught up in this paranoia mindset will become a danger to those who've prepared and survived and will have to dealt with.
 
#29 ·
Studies have shown that the % of people who will kill you for food, ect. are actually very small. Granted most research comes from Russia during wwII, and China WWII, communist revolution, and famine research.
Sixty years ago that was the case, even here in the US. People were much more level headed, responsible and accountable than they are now. Today the US is an immediate gratification society that blames everyone else when they don't get what they think is due.

Atrocities such as Katrina and the LA riots are machinations of "our" modern society. Just look at what's going on elsewhere in the world today with the earthquakes and typhoons. These people are not shooting at relief workers but they certainly did here in the US. We have pandered to the least common denominator in the US for so long it has supported and encouraged some of the worst behavior of modern times.
 
#26 ·
IMHO, it is already evident........... the good are so much more noticed ( orange fish in school of silver fish) and you only need look to your news channel or paper to see that entire families are being killed at one a week now, and violent crime is on the rise considerably.....


All my family can do is to put our best foot forward, be kind but cautious, and prepare and protect as best we can.
 
#30 ·
The comparison might be misleading...... it doesn't factor in that three score years ago, most families still grew their own food and were self sufficient...... TODAY, most people don't know how to make shoes, or grow food, or hunt heck I'll bet the majority don't kow how to get milk out of a cow or bake a loaf of bread... and the concentration of population and competition for "ready" food is nothing even imagined scores ago.

I think that if you can hunker down and not come in contact with anyone for the first ten days, the "masses" will have died by cause (suicide, heart attack, bystander, murder, et al). After that slightly more thought capable people will survive to the next "round" of survivability.
 
#33 ·
Hick Indy.... I agree with three months to complete the levels of survival, especially for those in large metro areas.... that is why , for our family, we chose to get the heck out of the way..... I have a couple posts that elucidate if interested. I am always looking for fresh suggestions, comments and conversation.
 
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