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Old 09-11-2009, 10:11 AM
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Originally Posted by ActionJackson View Post
You've got a nasty attitude and have ever since you've begun your personal crusade against Christianity.


As the list of ďusual suspectsĒ has gained another member and there are some new posters on the boards I feel this is a good time to set the record straight, clear the air and tell you how it isÖÖÖÖ

Iím not anti Christian nor am I anti Christianity In all honesty Iím not anti any religion.

Iím anti Bulls***er, Iím anti a**h*le (and if Iím honest Iím anti social but thatís another story and has no bearing here.)

Some might say the things Iím anti apply to me, well opinions vary.


If you tell me Jesus Christ was sacrificed for our sins, I might ask what was the sacrifice? His place in heaven was secure he had nothing to lose.

If you tell me Jesus was born roughly 2000yrs ago and was God made flesh, I might ask you why he spoke to himself OR for some secular evidence written at the time he was alive to prove he lived at all.

If you tell me you believe Jesus Christ was sacrificed for our sins.

OR

If you tell me you believe Jesus was born roughly 2000yrs ago and was God made flesh,

I have nothing to say, Iím pretty sure Iíve not argued with peoples beliefs just things people claim as fact with no evidence or evidence to the contrary. Iíve bitten my tongue at some things that have been said because its what the person believes no matter how Iíve felt regarding the subject. (one recent example immediately springs to mind)



If you condemn someone because of their beliefs or sexuality or anything else I might well argue either using the Bible or just my own opinion.

If you condemn a sinner yet sin yourself, Iíll point it out.

If you use Leviticus to make a point or support your argument Iíll point out things Iím sure you donít adhere too.

None of the above makes me anti Christianity, Iíve made mention of some of the good Christianity has done, I also although Iím sure its been missed by many of you always go out of my way to spell Christianity Christian Bible and God, not christianity, christian bible and god, itís a subtle thing but itís a sign of consideration on my part all the same.

I wont be brow beaten, fed belief as fact with no evidence, bullied or shamed into shutting up, so the cries of Smudge is anti us or the petty names I get called say more about other people than me.

If however you think Iíve made an unfair comment then draw my attention to it donít start whinging, so I can either explain my position or apologise and remove said comment, something no one has yet done.

If you donít believe me, if you want to continue to think the worst of me and think Iím the anti Christ or the biggest sonofadoodar well thatís fine I wont lose sleep over it, I just wanted to set the record straight once and for all.

If you donít like what I have to say or ask, feel free to put me on ignore (itís a simple procedure.)
Iím sure Biblically speaking God gave us free will because he didnít want slaves or robots, so questioning Biblically speaking is adhering to Gods will.

Comment, thank, ignore or just read as is your want Iíve made the effort
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Old 09-11-2009, 10:14 AM
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I'm not going to touch on the subject of you being pro/con Christianity, but I will say the little PM's we've shared discussing beliefs, that you've been nothing but respectful and pleasant/interesting to chat with.
Old 09-11-2009, 11:48 AM
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Originally Posted by Smudge View Post


As the list of ďusual suspectsĒ has gained another member and there are some new posters on the boards I feel this is a good time to set the record straight, clear the air and tell you how it isÖÖÖÖ

Iím not anti Christian nor am I anti Christianity In all honesty Iím not anti any religion.

Iím anti Bulls***er, Iím anti a**h*le (and if Iím honest Iím anti social but thatís another story and has no bearing here.)

Some might say the things Iím anti apply to me, well opinions vary.


If you tell me Jesus Christ was sacrificed for our sins, I might ask what was the sacrifice? His place in heaven was secure he had nothing to lose.

If you tell me Jesus was born roughly 2000yrs ago and was God made flesh, I might ask you why he spoke to himself OR for some secular evidence written at the time he was alive to prove he lived at all.

If you tell me you believe Jesus Christ was sacrificed for our sins.

OR

If you tell me you believe Jesus was born roughly 2000yrs ago and was God made flesh,

I have nothing to say, Iím pretty sure Iíve not argued with peoples beliefs just things people claim as fact with no evidence or evidence to the contrary. Iíve bitten my tongue at some things that have been said because its what the person believes no matter how Iíve felt regarding the subject. (one recent example immediately springs to mind)



If you condemn someone because of their beliefs or sexuality or anything else I might well argue either using the Bible or just my own opinion.

If you condemn a sinner yet sin yourself, Iíll point it out.

If you use Leviticus to make a point or support your argument Iíll point out things Iím sure you donít adhere too.

None of the above makes me anti Christianity, Iíve made mention of some of the good Christianity has done, I also although Iím sure its been missed by many of you always go out of my way to spell Christianity Christian Bible and God, not christianity, christian bible and god, itís a subtle thing but itís a sign of consideration on my part all the same.

I wont be brow beaten, fed belief as fact with no evidence, bullied or shamed into shutting up, so the cries of Smudge is anti us or the petty names I get called say more about other people than me.

If however you think Iíve made an unfair comment then draw my attention to it donít start whinging, so I can either explain my position or apologise and remove said comment, something no one has yet done.

If you donít believe me, if you want to continue to think the worst of me and think Iím the anti Christ or the biggest sonofadoodar well thatís fine I wont lose sleep over it, I just wanted to set the record straight once and for all.

If you donít like what I have to say or ask, feel free to put me on ignore (itís a simple procedure.)
Iím sure Biblically speaking God gave us free will because he didnít want slaves or robots, so questioning Biblically speaking is adhering to Gods will.

Comment, thank, ignore or just read as is your want Iíve made the effort
what smudge said!!!!
Old 09-11-2009, 01:06 PM
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Smudge doth protest too much, methinks............

Smudge darlin, Your arguments are so genuine and intelligent. I know that I for one could not best you in a scriptural debate. But what I do see is you are either sparring for sport or you are truly searching in earnest for the one thing that will make you believe. I hope you find what you are looking for.
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Old 09-11-2009, 02:45 PM
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You've kinda made my point with your post. I've tried to have civil conversation but civility is a two way street. Have a wonderful day sir. God bless and protect you.
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Old 09-11-2009, 02:48 PM
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No problem. However, don't accuse us of condemning when we point out sinful behavior. And don't accuse people of being anti gay, homophobes or righteous because we are opposed to sin that you or others deem appropriate.

As far as your questions or Bible quotes. No problem just understand we may not agree with you interpretation and don't want to be accused of the decoder ring garbage. Believe or not your interpretation of scripture may not agree with other people and you could be wrong.

If you ask a question don't tell others how to answer it or put all kinds of rules on what is an acceptable answer. Otherwise, why bother asking if you already know what answer you want just man up and express your opinion.
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Old 09-11-2009, 03:01 PM
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Smudge,Why dont you start with you ,deal with the issues in you instead of seeing the splinters in everyone else,s eyes.Sometimes a big plank is in our own.
Each of us on this planet is far from perfect.
Each of us have their own salvation to work out.
Each of us need love and understanding.
Maybe it,s time for the contentiousness to go and a spirit of love,joy peace happiness,self control to come in.
i am sure Action Jackson and Arrive alive would agree we all need that in our lives, each one of us.
The bible actually warns us against being in contentious arguments with people too much.that is why I dont hang around too much in your conversations,coz I dont want to get snared in a trap, and I dont feel like wasting my morning on trivial arguments.
However the Word does say to defend the faith, and reason together.That is what I am sure most of us like doing as Chrsitians.Reasoning together.
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Old 09-11-2009, 03:11 PM
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Good posts AA and FW. I know when someone's trolling and when they aren't. I generally will "take the bait" not because I'm gullible but because I enjoy conversation. I involve myself with this forum for the survival ideas I can put into practice and because I love to discuss Christianity. I've said it before and I'll say it now...this forum is entertainment. Unfortunately, there are those with a real agenda who DO have a deep resentment to all things Christian. We know who they are and they simply can't hide behind their denials. They reveal themselves.
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Old 09-11-2009, 04:09 PM
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Originally Posted by Smudge View Post
If you tell me Jesus was born roughly 2000yrs ago and was God made flesh, I might ask you why he spoke to himself OR for some secular evidence written at the time he was alive to prove he lived at all...

Comment, thank, ignore or just read as is your want I’ve made the effort
I dug through some old books to give you these. I truly hope this answers a few questions or satisfies just a shred of your curiosity.


From "Jesus of History, Christ of Faith" Third Edition, by Thomas Zanzig

Historical Sources

Several nonbiblical and non-Christian sources are available to help substantiate that Jesus actually did exist as a historical person.

Josephus, a Jewish Historian

Josephus, a Jewish historian, mentioned Jesus in his writings toward the end of the first century C.E., roughly sixty years after Jesus' death. As a non-Christian, Josephus would have had no reason to accept the historical reality of Jesus unless there was some sound basis for it.

In one of his works, Josephus discusses disturbances that were caused by the Jews during the time Pontius Pilate was governor of the region of Judea (26-36 C.E.). These disturbances centered around a man named Jesus and his followers. Josephus identifies Jesus as "a wise man... a doer of wonderful works, a teacher of men who receive the truth with pleasure," and he notes that Jesus was later condemned by Pilate to crucifixion. While this mention of Jesus does not suggest that Josephus himself accepted Jesus or the claims made about Jesus by his followers, it does seem clear that Josephus recognized Jesus to be a historical person who had a profound impact on the people he encountered.

Roman Writers

Tacitus. The Roman historian Tacitus referred to Jesus in his account of a fire that burned Rome in the year 64 C.E., for which the emperor Nero supposedly blamed the Christians. Tacitus himself obviously had no great love for that strange group of people called Christians:

"Christus, the founder of the name, had undergone the death penalty in the reign of Tiberius, by sentence of... Pontius Pilate, and the pernicious(or wicked) superstition(Christianity) was checked for a moment, only to break out once more, not merely in Judaea, the home of the disease, but in the capital(Rome) itself, where all things horrible or shameful in the world collect and find a vogue."

Nero's hideous torture of the Christians, as described below, reflects not only Nero's sick mind but also the extent to which many early followers of Jesus would go rather than deny their faith:

"... (Christians) were covered with wild beasts' skins and torn to death by dogs; or they were fastened on crosses, and, when daylight failed were burned to serve as lamps by night."

Some historians doubt Tacitus' claim that Nero was responsible for the persecution of many Christians.

Pliny the Younger. Another Roman source, a man named Pliny the Younger, was governor of one of the Roman provinces in Asia Minor about the year 110 C.E. He wrote to the emperor Trajan for advice on what to do about the Christians. The Roman officials were always concerned about the growth of any political or religious sect, and the Christian communities baffled them. Although Pliny's letter mentions Jesus, it offers no new information about him.

Suetonius. Around 120 C.E., the Roman historian and lawyer Suetonius compiled biographies of several Roman emperors. In a discussion of the emperor Claudius, Suetonius says that Claudius expelled the Jews from Rome because of the riots they were constantly causing, "on the instigation of Chrestus." Though there is some debate over the word Chrestus, scholars generally agree that it refers to Christ.

Note that at the time of Suetonius, Christians were still commonly regarded by the Romans as a Jewish sect. That is why Suetonius' account says that Claudius expelled the Jews from Rome.

Though these historical sources do not give us more information about Jesus than we find in the biblical sources, they do support the historical existence of Jesus, and they show Christianity - the movement based on Jesus' life and teachings - as worthy of at least brief mention. The fact remains, however, that if we want to know about Jesus to any reasonable degree, we must turn to the Christian Scriptures, and, more specifically, to the Gospels.


This excerpt doesn't mention Jesus specifically but I thought it was fitting. From Celebrating Sacraments, Third Edition, by Joseph Stoutzenberger:

The early Christians took very seriously their mandate to imitate Jesus; this can be seen in the following testimony, given by a non-Christian named Aristides to the Roman emperor Hadrian:

"Christians love one another. They never fail to help widows; they save orphans from those who would hurt them. If a man has something, he gives freely to the man who has nothing. If they see a stranger, Christians take him home and are happy, as though he were a real brother. They don't consider themselves brothers in the usual sense, but brothers through the Spirit, in God. And if they hear that one of them is in jail, or persecuted for professing the name of their redeemer, they all give him what he needs. If it is possible, they bail him out. If one of them is poor and there isn't enough food to go around, they fast several days to give him the food he needs. This is really a new kind of person. There is something divine in them. (Balasuriya, The Eucharist and Human Liberation, page 26)"
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Old 09-11-2009, 04:22 PM
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you're just a stroppy little bugger methinks.

:-)
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Old 09-11-2009, 04:41 PM
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you're just a stroppy little bugger methinks.

:-)
LOL. I guess all of us have a bad day from time to time. I certainly do. Smudge and I used to be fairly civil with one another but something got under his skin in recent weeks. Oh well...the internet can be fickle.
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Old 09-11-2009, 04:46 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Smudge View Post


[CENTER]If you tell me Jesus Christ was sacrificed for our sins, I might ask what was the sacrifice? His place in heaven was secure he had nothing to lose.

If you tell me you believe Jesus Christ was sacrificed for our sins.

If you condemn a sinner yet sin yourself, Iíll point it out.
Daaang smudge, who got your dander up?

It would take volumes, and weeks or months for me to lay out the why's and how's of the reasoning behind the sacrificial system set by the LORD at the time of man's fall. And why, Jesus (the LORD in the flesh) was the ONLY One that could take that responsibility. It was planned by G-d at the foundations of the world, and was carried out exactly as planned. There was no surprises (except to the son of perdition).
But, I am more than willing to tell you some of what I have learned regarding this. I really was floored when I found out little important tidbits, like When sin entered into the world by way of man, we lost the title to earth itself. It will be re-claimed one day by the Lamb.
None of us have the right to condemn anyone. We all live in glass houses and are born as sinners. We must, however, condemn sin, where ever we find it, including within ourselves. Some days, I have just a few things to 'fess up' to the LORD, but other days, I have to spend agonizing hours on my knees clearing out those dark corners.
Smudge, try to understand, every one of us that are born, are born as a sinner. We can't help it, its just how it is. G-d already knows this, and provided the Solution. The caveat is the faith part. G-d has already warned us, without faith, He will have nothing to do with us. But if we have faith that He IS, and that He will save us, then G-d will provide the escape for us.
Apparently you got cross ways with a few brothers, hey man, it happens. We are regular Joe's just like you. None of us have all of the answers, but all of us have some of the answers. That's probably part of the LORD's plan as well, to make us need each other. Kind of like cutting a map up into pieces, and passing them out. We can ignore each other, but we may as well sit our tooshes on the ground, because without the help of others, we aren't going anywhere. But when true christians unite, we learn from each other, and ultimately the will of the LORD is discovered. But in the meantime, the brothers, myself included, are just making our way through life, helping where we can, learning what we can, and hoping and praying that when someone cries out for help, we will hear and provide assitance. But smudge, know this, nobody can make you take that step to find G-d, you have to start that path yourself. We can tell you where to look, and how to get started, but in th eend, you have to drink that water yourself.
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Old 09-11-2009, 05:34 PM
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Smudge...it's kind of like people who disagree with Obama's policies, they're called racists...if you disagree or back someone into a verbal corner, or call them on their hypocrisy, then they call you anti-this, or anti-that....

No different, and remember..this is the internet.
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Old 09-11-2009, 05:49 PM
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Originally Posted by Paradox View Post
you're just a stroppy little bugger methinks.

:-)
It's hard for me to just keep up with who believes what! And I have a pretty good memory.
Old 09-11-2009, 06:24 PM
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Smudge...it's kind of like people who disagree with Obama's policies, they're called racists...if you disagree or back someone into a verbal corner, or call them on their hypocrisy, then they call you anti-this, or anti-that....

No different, and remember..this is the internet.
Yeah that happens to me all the time. I'm called anti-pagan, homophobic, anti-socialist, etc. It cuts me so deep.
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Old 09-11-2009, 11:18 PM
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As far as your questions or Bible quotes. No problem just understand we may not agree with you interpretation and don't want to be accused of the decoder ring garbage. Believe or not your interpretation of scripture may not agree with other people and you could be wrong.
I perfectly understand people wont agree, what I dont understand is why people wont even try to see where another persons point of view is coming from and still be able to stand their ground?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Arrive Alive View Post
If you ask a question don't tell others how to answer it or put all kinds of rules on what is an acceptable answer. Otherwise, why bother asking if you already know what answer you want just man up and express your opinion.
You obviously have something on your mind could you give me a couple of examples of where I've put unfair limitations on a question I've asked? At least that way I could see your point of view. Sometimes restrictions need to be put into place to recieve an honest answer.
Old 09-11-2009, 11:22 PM
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Smudge doth protest too much, methinks............
Not at all just this one time

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Originally Posted by granny squirrel View Post
Smudge darlin, Your arguments are so genuine and intelligent. I know that I for one could not best you in a scriptural debate. But what I do see is you are either sparring for sport or you are truly searching in earnest for the one thing that will make you believe. I hope you find what you are looking for.
lol Thankyou but you credit me with too much, I'm perfectly happy where I am spiritualy, much of the time I'm trying to gain insight into the Christian mindset as much of it is a mystery to me. I have on occassion if I'm honest sparred for sport but only when I see someone who is being unfair or unjust imho, never just for kicks.

Thankyou for the reply
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Old 09-11-2009, 11:30 PM
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Originally Posted by Bohica View Post
I dug through some old books to give you these. I truly hope this answers a few questions or satisfies just a shred of your curiosity.


From "Jesus of History, Christ of Faith" Third Edition, by Thomas Zanzig

Historical Sources

Several nonbiblical and non-Christian sources are available to help substantiate that Jesus actually did exist as a historical person.

Josephus, a Jewish Historian

Josephus, a Jewish historian, mentioned Jesus in his writings toward the end of the first century C.E., roughly sixty years after Jesus' death. As a non-Christian, Josephus would have had no reason to accept the historical reality of Jesus unless there was some sound basis for it.

In one of his works, Josephus discusses disturbances that were caused by the Jews during the time Pontius Pilate was governor of the region of Judea (26-36 C.E.). These disturbances centered around a man named Jesus and his followers. Josephus identifies Jesus as "a wise man... a doer of wonderful works, a teacher of men who receive the truth with pleasure," and he notes that Jesus was later condemned by Pilate to crucifixion. While this mention of Jesus does not suggest that Josephus himself accepted Jesus or the claims made about Jesus by his followers, it does seem clear that Josephus recognized Jesus to be a historical person who had a profound impact on the people he encountered.

Roman Writers

Tacitus. The Roman historian Tacitus referred to Jesus in his account of a fire that burned Rome in the year 64 C.E., for which the emperor Nero supposedly blamed the Christians. Tacitus himself obviously had no great love for that strange group of people called Christians:

"Christus, the founder of the name, had undergone the death penalty in the reign of Tiberius, by sentence of... Pontius Pilate, and the pernicious(or wicked) superstition(Christianity) was checked for a moment, only to break out once more, not merely in Judaea, the home of the disease, but in the capital(Rome) itself, where all things horrible or shameful in the world collect and find a vogue."

Nero's hideous torture of the Christians, as described below, reflects not only Nero's sick mind but also the extent to which many early followers of Jesus would go rather than deny their faith:

"... (Christians) were covered with wild beasts' skins and torn to death by dogs; or they were fastened on crosses, and, when daylight failed were burned to serve as lamps by night."

Some historians doubt Tacitus' claim that Nero was responsible for the persecution of many Christians.

Pliny the Younger. Another Roman source, a man named Pliny the Younger, was governor of one of the Roman provinces in Asia Minor about the year 110 C.E. He wrote to the emperor Trajan for advice on what to do about the Christians. The Roman officials were always concerned about the growth of any political or religious sect, and the Christian communities baffled them. Although Pliny's letter mentions Jesus, it offers no new information about him.

Suetonius. Around 120 C.E., the Roman historian and lawyer Suetonius compiled biographies of several Roman emperors. In a discussion of the emperor Claudius, Suetonius says that Claudius expelled the Jews from Rome because of the riots they were constantly causing, "on the instigation of Chrestus." Though there is some debate over the word Chrestus, scholars generally agree that it refers to Christ.

Note that at the time of Suetonius, Christians were still commonly regarded by the Romans as a Jewish sect. That is why Suetonius' account says that Claudius expelled the Jews from Rome.

Though these historical sources do not give us more information about Jesus than we find in the biblical sources, they do support the historical existence of Jesus, and they show Christianity - the movement based on Jesus' life and teachings - as worthy of at least brief mention. The fact remains, however, that if we want to know about Jesus to any reasonable degree, we must turn to the Christian Scriptures, and, more specifically, to the Gospels.


This excerpt doesn't mention Jesus specifically but I thought it was fitting. From Celebrating Sacraments, Third Edition, by Joseph Stoutzenberger:

The early Christians took very seriously their mandate to imitate Jesus; this can be seen in the following testimony, given by a non-Christian named Aristides to the Roman emperor Hadrian:

"Christians love one another. They never fail to help widows; they save orphans from those who would hurt them. If a man has something, he gives freely to the man who has nothing. If they see a stranger, Christians take him home and are happy, as though he were a real brother. They don't consider themselves brothers in the usual sense, but brothers through the Spirit, in God. And if they hear that one of them is in jail, or persecuted for professing the name of their redeemer, they all give him what he needs. If it is possible, they bail him out. If one of them is poor and there isn't enough food to go around, they fast several days to give him the food he needs. This is really a new kind of person. There is something divine in them. (Balasuriya, The Eucharist and Human Liberation, page 26)"
Bohica............... I thankyou for the effort but in my defence can I point out I suggested I might ask for some secular evidence written when he was alive nothing you have provided matchs that. Ive seen these names before and read the evidence the Josephus evidence is invalid as he never actually mentions Jesus in his early works and the later passages are widely thought to be fake. Also if I'm honest I can supply many many more names but none secular from the time he's supposed to have lived.

Ive never said he didnt exist I've said based on lack of evidence I dont believe in him, thats not to say anyone else shouldnt, I would never tell anyone what to believe or who to pray too.
Old 09-11-2009, 11:31 PM
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you're just a stroppy little bugger methinks.

:-)
Probably
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Old 09-12-2009, 04:50 AM
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Originally Posted by Smudge View Post
Probably
Glad you took this in the spirit it was intended mate. writing like this is sometimes difficult cos you cant always get across the intent. I did worry it would come across wrong.

If you want to talk about antisocial thats me!
Sometimes I wonder where you are coming from though. I get the impression that some one maybe forced you into religion, either at school or in a familial setting and you are kicking back against it.
P
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