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Old 07-24-2009, 02:10 AM
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watching a guntalktv video,it is advised to clear a misfire with a slide rack and fire again.this was with a pistol.i thought this was a no-no. i thought after a misfire you put the gun down for a bit,then clear the chamber,then make sure the barrel is clear.is this process only true for rifles?
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Old 07-24-2009, 02:29 AM
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There are a number of ways to handle a misfire. It varies from instructor-to-instructor and range-to-range. If I have a shooter whose gun goes "snap" instead of "bang," I have him keep the gun pointed in a safe direction (downrange) and wait to see if it is a delayed reaction. I once saw some really old British .303 rifle ammo have a delay in them from 30 seconds to a little over a minute with 2 rounds. We pulled the rest of the ammo that day but one round did take about 30 seconds to go bang after the trigger had been pulled and the next round took somewhere between 1 minute and 2 minutes before firing. The key issues are:

1. Detecting the misfire.
2. Keep the gun pointed in a safe direction.
3. Allow a short interval of time to see if you will have a delayed detonation.
4. Check the firearm afterwards to make sure that it is still in working order.
5. If the round does NOT fire at all, the round should be removed and put somewhere so that if it does goes off that nobody gets hurt. One place to put a defective round might be in the bottom of a 55 gallon drum and pointed so that neither the bullet or cartridge can hit anybody.
6. Do not handle a defective round for any great length of time.

Some ranges, not all of them, have "a bad ammo pit" that is used to hold defective rounds until they can be desposed of later by an expert. You would use the pit in lieu of an empty 55 gallon barrel.
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Old 07-24-2009, 03:12 AM
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Another thing to account for is that some individuals train for real life situations.

They are just teaching their minds to react to the misfire as though it were a real world situation.

Supposedly.....there isn't much damage a round of ammo can do if it isn't chambered against something.

I haven't had a personal experience with that type of situation so my opinion means nothing.....
Old 07-24-2009, 03:43 AM
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It depends on the situation. Herd Sniper took the safest route. In a high pressure situation, you need a functioning gun quickly. You can practice by putting a bullet head on a spent cartridge and putting them in a magazine. When you do tactical shooting practice, then practice clearing the malfunction.
Old 07-24-2009, 05:29 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr.Gee View Post
watching a guntalktv video,it is advised to clear a misfire with a slide rack and fire again.this was with a pistol.i thought this was a no-no. i thought after a misfire you put the gun down for a bit,then clear the chamber,then make sure the barrel is clear.is this process only true for rifles?
What he was demonstrating was real world misfire clears. If an intruder is in your home and you have to engage them and your weapon misfires, you're not going to set it down for a while correct?

The ONLY time you will want to keep the firearm pointed in a safe direction for a few minutes is when at a range. The reasoning behind that is incase of a delay fire.

In a failure to fire all you need to know is the proper remedial action for your weapon system.

Slap - smack the magazine to ensure the rounds are properly seated.

Pull - pull the charging handle/slide to the rear and hold it.

Observe - Observe a round/casing leave - that the chamber is clear.

Release - Let the bolt go forward.

*Tap - *optional If your weapon has a bolt forward assist Tap it.

Squeeze - Attempt to fire again.


That is a basic remedial action in sequence. If you're weapon continues to fail to fire then you would do a complete maintenance check to figure out what is wrong.
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Old 07-24-2009, 02:35 PM
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We called the drill Tap, Rack and Roll

In a stress situation , Tap the bottom of the magazine to make sure it's seated, Rack the slide to run a new round and Roll, keep firing. It's a good ide to roll the gun upside down while racking the slide so the dud round falls free.

Like sailinghudson25 mentioned, it's good training to use a dummy round for practice.
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Old 07-24-2009, 02:45 PM
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The wait 30 seconds and all that is pointless IMO.

Sure some ranges require it but what they don't know won't hurt you.

You want to practice like you would fight, get that malfunctioned round out as quick as possible. It won't hurt anything if it does manage to detonate on the ground, it'll just pop. The most dangerous rounds to detonate outside of the chamber are actually .22lr and other tiny rounds, as the casing tends to go flying, as it's the lightest part. But if everyone is wearing their eye pro as they should it's not a big deal.

The only possible danger I can think of is it it detonates while you are pulling it out of battery (I've never heard of that happening but if anyone has please chime in), so get that round out as quick as possible and get back in the fight!
Old 07-24-2009, 03:20 PM
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The only possible danger I can think of is it it detonates while you are pulling it out of battery (I've never heard of that happening but if anyone has please chime in), so get that round out as quick as possible and get back in the fight!
The only thing I had come even close to that was a severe malfunction on an M2 .50cal I was firing, it didn't eject the brass and loaded the next round into the casing and somehow fired out of battery. It ended up totaling the mg, the receiver swelled and the top cover bulged, internally it broke the bolt and buffer assembly, they were actually stuck in the receiver and wouldn't come out.

Needless to say I was lucky

Another troop had a misfire on his m240 and like a dumby lift the cover and pulled the bolt back, the round cooked off and sent the casing his way and left a nice reminder on his forehead. In that case it was a blank and the round cooked off from the temperature.
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Old 07-24-2009, 04:01 PM
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Originally Posted by Nightside_Eclipse View Post
The wait 30 seconds and all that is pointless IMO.

Sure some ranges require it but what they don't know won't hurt you.

You want to practice like you would fight, get that malfunctioned round out as quick as possible. It won't hurt anything if it does manage to detonate on the ground, it'll just pop. The most dangerous rounds to detonate outside of the chamber are actually .22lr and other tiny rounds, as the casing tends to go flying, as it's the lightest part. But if everyone is wearing their eye pro as they should it's not a big deal.

The only possible danger I can think of is it it detonates while you are pulling it out of battery (I've never heard of that happening but if anyone has please chime in), so get that round out as quick as possible and get back in the fight!
Well Nightside, think of it this way, when fired a cartridge is a contained explosion, now the reason the blast goes forward is that is the path of least resistance. Now If you have a shotshell say, you you had a hangfire, and by sure luck right when you rack the pump back and the action is open, right then the powder ignites, you have fire/projectiles flying out of the side. The wait is to ensure without a shadow of a doubt that the round is a dud. It applies to all firearms. It is a serious safety issue man.

Now as to the clearing procedure, I was always taught, wait 30 seconds, gun in hand to maintain control of it, muzzle down range,finger off of trigger, after 30 eject and examine the round and the barrel for any obstruction bullets if applicable (squib load), if the primer has a shallow dent, place it back into the breech and try to fire again, usually it will fire then. Now when it comes to revolvers there is something to consider, you cannot simply pull the trigger again, 1) If it was a squib load you have just loaded your barrel, a second shot could result in catastrophic failure. 2) If it is a hangfire you risk having the dud go off in the chamber not in front of the barrel at the same time as the round you just fired, IE double discharge that has the potential to cause too much pressure in the cylinder and again a catastrophic failure. Note these are for when hunting or on the range, in a self defense situation you might as well clear and fire again or pull the trigger again and risk injury as opposed to death.
Old 07-25-2009, 12:55 PM
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makes sense in a fight.
Old 07-25-2009, 01:39 PM
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Every time I shoot a gun it is to prepare for a fight. Tap, Roll, Rack, Assess may not be the safest course of action at a range, but it sure as heck is the safest course of action in a gunfight. Putting the gun down is a much more dangerous way to train, because what you do in training, you will do in a gunfight.

I have used Tap, Roll, Rack, Assess hundreds upon hundreds of times at the range and never had an issue. I hate to admit this but it is a true story that nominated me for the Darwin award one year. I was getting ammo to load my .40 Glock from an ammo can and didn't realize that somebody had dumped some 9mm in their also. Don't allow yourself to talk and be distracted while performing "simple" functions such as loading your gun, because I loaded partial 9mm and partial .40 caliber rounds into the magazines. Then I ran through a stress shooting course. It was very interesting, I Tap, Rolled, and Racked every round, but I finished the fight. Now I'm not saying that you have to be that committed, but in my business your not allowed to call a time out.

"Training if done properly will sometimes kill you, but more often than not it will save your life." Richard Marcinko

If you don't feel safe or are unwilling to use the Tap, Roll, Rack method, good luck if you ever get a "click" instead of a "bang" when you fire a gun in a gunfight. Consider carrying two guns at all times. If not at the very least, keep the gun pointed at the bad guy(HE PROBABLY DOESN'T KNOW IT ISN'T WORKING) and retreat to cover. Then keeping the gun on the threat, preform a remedial action drill, or forget all of that and just keep running. If you are too close then beat the crap out of him with the weapon.

Whatever you decide to do, it needs to be SOP and practiced at the range. It isn't enough to just decide what you will do. It has to be practiced.

Squib loads are dangerous. I have seen a few of these. I even sent a gun back to Glock because somebody had fired the gun after the first round had squibed. The barrel expanded but the gun still fired without injury to the shooter. I don't suggest firing the gun again if you KNOW that you have a squib round, which is usually obvious because of the low report. But in a fight with auditory exclusion it would be hard to tell the difference. The point is it is a fight and there is an element of chance involved.

Just some of my thoughts.

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Old 07-25-2009, 02:38 PM
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You should absolutely train how you fight. The only time I haven't done immediate action is when shooting Paki ammo out of my Enfield, because I have had it hang fire OFTEN with that crap ammo. If using my PSL on the other hand, which the mag is bad so I get constant FTF's I just go right into SPORTS and rock on. If you are already familiar with doing immediate action and are proficient and quick about it then you can do at your own discretion, until then I would recommend doing immediate action drills, which you can do at home without any ammo, and get that muscle memory trained.
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Old 07-25-2009, 09:35 PM
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A friend of mine let me shot his 1911 on day at the range. I pulled the trigger and to me it seemed like nothing happened. we put the gun down for about 2 minutes. Then I ejected the cartrage, and the bullet was not on it. The bullet was logged about half way down the barrel. It took a screw driver and a hammer to get it out. I'm glad I didn't Tap, Rack and Roll. It would have blown up on me.
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Old 07-25-2009, 10:02 PM
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I have dis-lodged squib stuck bullets out of barrels by simply taking another live round,pulled the projectile,dump about half the powder,and load it with the barrel up,so the powder stays in the case.Level the rifle towards downrange,touch off.It will floop! out of the barrel,and do no damage.
Old 07-26-2009, 08:38 AM
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This is obviously an odds thing.

Are you in a fight?If so, what kind?

I think I will practice the tap method as I might need it.

Crap fire at the range? I will use the safe technique.
Old 07-26-2009, 08:41 AM
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I have dis-lodged squib stuck bullets out of barrels by simply taking another live round,pulled the projectile,dump about half the powder,and load it with the barrel up,so the powder stays in the case.Level the rifle towards downrange,touch off.It will floop! out of the barrel,and do no damage.

Sounds sketchy I must say. I wouldnt have the stones for this method.
Old 07-26-2009, 12:20 PM
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If you have a good run of ammo there shouldn't be any misfires. I shoot a lot of really old milsurp,so that is the flip side of the equation. Not often but every once in a while. Most of it is a half century old so go figure. For the age we can say it seldom happens.

After watching a case detonate on a guy at the range a couple lanes down, I developed the procedure of pointing safe and waiting, but turning the weapon over so the receiver was between me and any super heated gasses. After the minute or two of waiting, I make a loop with the sling to use to pull back the bolt so my fingers are clear if the sidewalls rupture during extracting the offending casing. Gravity can help clear any jumpers, coming loose from the magazine as well.

In real time self defense the practice of rolling the rifle till the bolt and breech are pointed down and away from the body and working the slide, just comes natural.
Old 07-26-2009, 12:25 PM
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Originally Posted by Dr.Gee View Post
Sounds sketchy I must say. I wouldnt have the stones for this method.
I would agree, I have had my share of squibs. Powder charge isn't right needless to say isn't doing you much good. It's better to pull out the barrel and tap it out with a dowel or brass rod.
Old 07-26-2009, 12:40 PM
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Had a recent misfire in a black powder that discharged about 2 minutes later. We had placed it in a gun vice, pointing down range and waited per previous advice. it erupted and we all looked at each other like Obama after the Gates conference, then we wet the bore sqabbed it, cleaned it oiled it and packed it up. Major cleaning at the house.

Cleaning has always been the reason for most misfires in my weapons.
Old 07-26-2009, 04:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gengar View Post
A friend of mine let me shot his 1911 on day at the range. I pulled the trigger and to me it seemed like nothing happened. we put the gun down for about 2 minutes. Then I ejected the cartrage, and the bullet was not on it. The bullet was logged about half way down the barrel. It took a screw driver and a hammer to get it out. I'm glad I didn't Tap, Rack and Roll. It would have blown up on me.
There is no possible way that a round could have gotten stuck in the barrel with out noticing something such as a primer detonation. I think inexperience might have played a part in not noticing.

It's impossible for ammo to fall out of a barrel if the caliber is correct, unless your shooting bird or buck shot.

Primer detonation must have occurred in order to push the round part way through. What you should have noticed is a weak recoil.

If you are using reloads or shotty ammo to begin with then you need to act appropriately when on the shooting range when using iffy ammo. Goodolfroathyone pointed out the correct action to take with certain surplus ammo known for hangfire issues

If you are using premium ammo, the likely of this occurring is much smaller, but it does happen. Again one needs to recognize a squib vs. a limpwrist or bad mag ect....

If it happens in a gunfight, (you should be using premium ammo) you need to take remedial action to get the gun to fire, there is no time to assess the situation for a round stuck in the barrel when you're on the verge of ending up dead from enemy gunfire. An exploded barrel is the least of your troubles at that point in time.

And I shudder to think that your friend would have used a screw driver in the barrel to get the round out. Hence my suspicion of inexperience.

Last edited by sojurn87; 07-26-2009 at 04:09 PM..
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