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Shotgun Forum Mossberg, Winchester, Remington, Benelli....

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Old 06-15-2009, 11:45 AM
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OK, got a few questions for you guys. I've only ever shot a couple of 16 gauge slug guns and a couple of 12 gauge over/unders and semi-autos for trap. So I've never fired a pump with a shorter barrel. Well my fiance and I moved to a different neighborhood in the STL area which seems like a good neighborhood, but I still want to be prepared. Better safe than sorry as I like to say.

So I'm staying away from rifles and pistols right now because I figure the shotgun will be easier for her to learn with and shoot accurately. Not to mention I don't want to be sending bullets into the neighbors living room or bedroom from a rifle or pistol. I'm gonna get a pistol caliber carbine for myself at some point, but the shotgun is first.

So here's my major problems, 12 gauge vs 20 gauge for my fiance. She's fired rifles before but I have no idea what caliber, sounds like it was a .22lr and maybe a 30-30.

We were at Cabela's and I had her hold some of the shotguns there and she can't comfortably hold the fore end, let alone work the pump. So that's problem two.

Obviously I was looking at Mossberg 500s and Remington 870s. However I like to keep my options open and I'm not opposed to other brands of shotguns especially since we are on a very tight budget right now. I still want to be able to afford to buy ammo and some time at the range after I'm done.

I've also contemplated side by sides, but I'm not sold, I like the simplicity, but not the capacity, and from experience I know even simplicity can fail when you don't want it too.

So I started to look at pump guns that have longer pumps or pumps closer to the receiver and I came up with theses

http://www.tristarsportingarms.com/product_cobra.html

The Aimguard, second one down;
http://www.legacysports.com/products...specialty.html

http://www.stoegerindustries.com/fir..._p350_pump.php

http://www.benelliusa.com/shotguns/b..._nova_pump.php

Now obviously the Benelli is a little more expensive than I want, but you can get the idea of where I'm going at least.

So my next question is, does anyone know if there are longer fore ends for the 500 or 870 and will the work with 20 gauge models?

So if anyone has suggestions, please give them. I don't want any answers about just get the 870 etc and be happy. If you're gonna leave responses like that, just go away. I'm looking for real advice please.

Thanks to all those that respond.

Edit: Also, what about Charles Daly shotguns and Youth models of shotguns?

Last edited by BigWillieLL66; 06-15-2009 at 01:19 PM.. Reason: Forgot something.
Old 06-15-2009, 12:06 PM
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Have you considered a '500' with an aftermarket stock and/or a pistol grip slide?
I'm a big 500 fan. Great bang for the dollar, and mine have been 100% reliable.
http://www.havlinsales.com/tactical.htm

http://www.gunsinternational.com/MOS...F65C0FA43DE481
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Old 06-15-2009, 12:14 PM
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Have you considered a '500' with an aftermarket stock and/or a pistol grip slide?
I'm a big 500 fan. Great bang for the dollar, and mine have been 100% reliable.
http://www.havlinsales.com/tactical.htm

http://www.gunsinternational.com/MOS...F65C0FA43DE481
I have thought about the pistol grip fore end briefly, but my fiance won't be able to use it. It'll be too far for her to reach and effectively work the pump. I need the fore end to be as close to the receiver as possible for her to be able to use the shotgun effectively.
Old 06-16-2009, 12:20 AM
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Then you're limited to either a double SxS or O/U or a semi...

You can get a Remington 1100 in 20 bore that hardly has any felt recoil, has extended magazines available for it and all she has to do is keep squeezing the trigger...Of course there are other makers like Franchi, Beretta, Benelli, Browning etc. that offer great semi autos...

The other alternative is a Coach Gun SxS...
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Old 06-16-2009, 12:36 AM
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Saiga 12 wth ak conversion.
Old 06-16-2009, 05:13 AM
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you coul get a 20 gauge with a youth stock. the youth stock is abit shorter than normal on a mossberg.

item #57110 505 YOUTH™ PUMP-ACTION - ALL-PURPOSE FIELD the defference is 12 inch vs. 14 inch LOP (that is the length from your shoulder to the trigger)
fith one down. 20 inch barrel 20 gauge.
http://www.mossberg.com/products/def...&display=specs


i love my 76' 870 wingmaster but 870s are easy to short stroke if you too timid or gentle with them.
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Old 06-16-2009, 01:04 PM
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For ladies self defense, a 20 gauge isn't bad. Keep in mind lighter 20 gauge shotguns will kick close to a 12 gauge.

Ladies prefer a youth stock. Purchase a limbsaver or similar recoil pad for the buttstock. Also, a recoil pad for the shoulder for practice. I bought a 1100 remington in youth for my wife. It does have some less recoil than my 870 in 20 gauge, but not much. Keep in mind, some ladies have shorter arms and have trouble properly holding the gun at the pump handle. shorter arms have the tendacy to hold the gun closer, thus needed to reposition the hand to cycle the shotgun. There are reliable semi-autos out there. For practice, you can load a dry fire "snap cap" round to simulate a gun failure. Then have her clear the problem quickly when the gun doesn't fire.

Other options are lever action rifles that fire pistol cartridges. It is less power, however it is less recoil and they do not mind shooting them as much as shotguns. However, skeet and trap are better practices than traditional bench style rifle shooting. Even a .410 can be used with the right ammo, though bigger gauges are better and usually cheaper to shoot.

A hi-point 9mm semi-auto carbine rifle are proven reliable and can be purchased in 9mm. I think 40 and 45 acp are available. Beretta and H&K make better models, but the hi point should serve you well. They run about 200-300 depending on area.

Please research your states laws well on home defense.
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Old 06-16-2009, 01:32 PM
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The converted Saiga is a good choice, if it is in your budget.

I have a Mossy 500 with an aftermarket collapsible stock. With the stock shortened, your fiancee should not have a problem reaching the foreend. You could also cut down the OEM stock with a miter saw.

I like the 12 gauge for the extra power it delivers. You can either go with a Knoxx recoil reducing stock, or attach a limbsaver to another collapsible stock. I have a Limbsaver on my 7mm Rem Mag and it works surprising well.
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Old 06-16-2009, 01:49 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BigWillieLL66 View Post
OK, got a few questions for you guys. I've only ever shot a couple of 16 gauge slug guns and a couple of 12 gauge over/unders and semi-autos for trap. So I've never fired a pump with a shorter barrel. Well my fiance and I moved to a different neighborhood in the STL area which seems like a good neighborhood, but I still want to be prepared. Better safe than sorry as I like to say.

So I'm staying away from rifles and pistols right now because I figure the shotgun will be easier for her to learn with and shoot accurately. Not to mention I don't want to be sending bullets into the neighbors living room or bedroom from a rifle or pistol. I'm gonna get a pistol caliber carbine for myself at some point, but the shotgun is first.

So here's my major problems, 12 gauge vs 20 gauge for my fiance. She's fired rifles before but I have no idea what caliber, sounds like it was a .22lr and maybe a 30-30.

We were at Cabela's and I had her hold some of the shotguns there and she can't comfortably hold the fore end, let alone work the pump. So that's problem two.

Obviously I was looking at Mossberg 500s and Remington 870s. However I like to keep my options open and I'm not opposed to other brands of shotguns especially since we are on a very tight budget right now. I still want to be able to afford to buy ammo and some time at the range after I'm done.

I've also contemplated side by sides, but I'm not sold, I like the simplicity, but not the capacity, and from experience I know even simplicity can fail when you don't want it too.

So I started to look at pump guns that have longer pumps or pumps closer to the receiver and I came up with theses

http://www.tristarsportingarms.com/product_cobra.html

The Aimguard, second one down;
http://www.legacysports.com/products...specialty.html

http://www.stoegerindustries.com/fir..._p350_pump.php

http://www.benelliusa.com/shotguns/b..._nova_pump.php

Now obviously the Benelli is a little more expensive than I want, but you can get the idea of where I'm going at least.

So my next question is, does anyone know if there are longer fore ends for the 500 or 870 and will the work with 20 gauge models?

So if anyone has suggestions, please give them. I don't want any answers about just get the 870 etc and be happy. If you're gonna leave responses like that, just go away. I'm looking for real advice please.

Thanks to all those that respond.

Edit: Also, what about Charles Daly shotguns and Youth models of shotguns?
20 gauge for a female would be fine the ammo is in most cases cheaper than 16 gauge also you have less power and recoil with the 20.Both those makes have 12,16,20 gauge models.
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Old 06-16-2009, 01:59 PM
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anything that fits her best, find something that is easy and comfortable to grip... Ended up with a Browning BPS instead of a Benelli, 870 or a mossy because of how it felt...

beyond making sure the individual gun is reliable, the light use she will put on to the gun marginalizes the need to insure long term durability... so you have the full field of options
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Old 06-16-2009, 05:03 PM
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If its for a small woman I would look at some youth model shotguns. I'm not a huge fan of pump shotguns although I would like a high capacity 12ga at some point. I think that a 20ga coach gun would be a very effective weapon for a woman to use. Load it with buckshot and have her practice loading and unloading it quickly. The extra capacity of a pump is an advantage if you are facing many attackers. Two shots is a fatal disadvantage if you are facing 3 or more attackers. Everything considered I would feel pretty good with a coachgun although I would want a 12ga.

Here's another thought. It isn't any harder to learn to use a carbine than a shotgun. How about a 357mag levergun? Most hold 10 shots and loaded with .38spl hollowpoints you really aren't posing any greater threat to the neighbors than a shotgun with buckshot. Just something for you to consider.
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Old 06-17-2009, 02:30 AM
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As pointed out, youth models are available for lots of makes and models and that would be an excellent idea or you can use an adjustable recoil reducing stock (buffer system) made by Knoxx but your limited to the 500/590/870 trio, the added expense $150.00 and there are other makers available like Graco etc...

The use of a 3" magnum 20 bore round is equivalent to the recoil of a 12 bore round and a down loaded/reduced load 12 bore matches a standard 20 bore in recoil...the difference is in the amount of shot that you'll have available in each shell...

So if you can get a proper fitting stock but only in a 12 bore with reduced loads it will be like shooting a 20 bore…Of course you could always add a couple of Mercury Tubes for dead weight and what you should do immediately is mount a LimbSaver or other brand (KickEeze, Dead Mule, Pachmayr etc.) new material recoil pad either a grind to fit or a slip on and both will reduce recoil significantly!

I have a Rossi double barrel exposed hammer coach gun--also called a lupara by the Sicilians, that I, my wife and my daughters use...a 12 bore for me and 4, 20 bore for them...Mine are all 20” (50cm) barrels not 18½” (I guess how they sold them Europe and elsewhere) chocked imp cyl/imp mod (originally mod/full) and each barrel carries a different buckshot pellet size...The benefits are that you have instant choice of which barrel to shoot, that you can load two different loads and have two different chokes available, there is also a psychological factor of staring down two (2) pipes, the closing of the breech is loud enough to impart fear similar to the racking of a slide on a pump, it is a much smaller gun overall with the same barrel length--because of the action size so handling and manoeuvrability are better but the two that I find the most important is that I can have the gun loaded, broken open and it puts zero strain on the workings of the gun, no springs under tension and a flick of the wrist (not recommended, properly done--raise the stock to the barrels) will close it ready to go and the most important thing; I can tell at a glance whether it's ready to fire or not by looking at the hammers and in the black of night just by feel I can tell if the guns is safe--hammers down, half cock or ready to fire--full cock by just running my hand over the gun...


Lupara – Stoeger Coach Gun

My other choice for a HD gun would be a semi auto because the recoil system reduces a lot of the recoil and the adding the other measures make it just that much more pleasant to shoot and that is the most important thing of all—you must practice with it to get the feel of the gun and its kick and if you’re afraid of the gun you’ll either flinch in anticipation of the shot and probably miss the target or just refuse to pull the trigger because your scared of the pain/noise/thump and that won’t do you much good in a home invasion…If you’re not scared of the gun, you’ll go out and shoot it more, gaining experience and honing muscles for when you have to work off muscle memory alone and most importantly, building confidence as you break more and more targets—thrown or stationary…

Please note that some reduced loads will not cycle in all semi autos, you have to eject them by pulling the cocking handle/bolt handle whatever back…they just don’t have enough power to push the hammer back to eject…so you can imagine how light of recoil they’d be…They work fine in a pump but I abhor pumps so I’d never buy one—actually I did, I replaced the 16 bore Ithaca Model 37 “Sweet Sixteen” that I owned and sold to my cousin by buying it back from him…and that was for nostalgia, memories not hunting or HD, strictly a wall hanger/sage queen!
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Old 06-20-2009, 08:56 PM
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My wife and I where looking at a 870 20 gauge youth gun, fits her small frame very well.
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Old 06-21-2009, 10:15 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BigWillieLL66 View Post
...So I'm staying away from rifles and pistols right now because I figure the shotgun will be easier ...
I think this is a big mistake. Shotguns are great and I love em, but they have definite downsides for HD. Tactical gun courses as well as just going through scenerios in my own dwelling show me those shotgun limitations again and again.

Ideally, you want both, but if I could only have one HD gun, I'd pick a pistol or revolver all the way. Handguns are WAY more maneuverable, allow one handed operation (phone, door, combat, etc), hard to take away from you, easy for any adult family member to use (assuming you stick with 380, 38sp, 9mm range). Most of all, it's easier to practice more often with a handgun due to indoor ranges being more common and open year round... and handguns have cheaper ammo. A lot of indoor ranges don't allow shotguns or restrict ammo type, and most outdoor shooting ranges that let you shoot inexpensive birdshot are at private club$$$.

Shotguns are all fine and good, and as the saying goes "a man fights with what he has." They are fantastic if you plan to just sit in a room with the gun pointed at the door. However, if you hear crashing, alarm, dogs going crazy, etc downstairs or in another room, any long gun, even 18" shotgun, is hard to corner and move around with, and it's fairly easy to grab disarm in close quarters. If you do decide to use a shotgun for indoor HD (alone or in combo with handgun), I'd urge you to go with a 20ga pump and #3buck shells. A 20ga has plenty of stopping power with less recoil (meaning faster and more accurate fire rate)... anyone saying 12ga is "needed" or "better" at indoor distances is just plain wrong. FWIW, I love my Remington 870 20ga tac with Knoxx and ext mag... about $4-500 for a great HD shotgun right out of the box. I have 12ga guns also, but the 20 is definitely my choice as HD shotgun.

Personally, I go for the best of both worlds: pistol as primary HD/CCW gun with a pump shotgun in the bedroom for any "back against the wall" type situation. GL

Last edited by slyguy; 06-21-2009 at 02:19 PM..
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Old 06-21-2009, 10:27 AM
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to me it sounds like a shotgun is the wrong choice for her. is she so small that she cant operate a pump shotgun? then she isnt gonna like shooting it OR be very good at it. a sxs will cost at least $300+ and she has 2 shots to miss the bad guy. i say pistol caliber carbine, or lever gun.
a high point 995 (9mm carbine) cost $170, takes 10 round mags and is a great reliable carbine. small light and easy to use. get the right ammo and she has stopping power and less chance of over penetration. same goes for a .357 lever gun. with the lever gun you even get that "racking" sound like a pump shotgun would make.
Old 06-24-2009, 07:18 PM
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Originally Posted by trixie View Post
a high point 995 (9mm carbine) cost $170, takes 10 round mags and is a great reliable carbine. small light and easy to use. get the right ammo and she has stopping power and less chance of over penetration.


If you are thinking Hipoint, they just came out with a new design.

http://www.rrarms.com/catalog.php?prod=G995TS
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Old 06-24-2009, 07:25 PM
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Sounds to me like maybe a youth model .410 Mossberg 500 or 870 might be the ticket (does rem make a .410?).
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Old 06-29-2009, 01:40 PM
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Well I just ordered the shotgun. I'm ordering a Mossberg 505 youth in 20 gauge with a 20" barrel. Should be about a week before it comes in. Got the last one from the supplier that my local gunshop uses. I'm glad they could get it for me and it was the same price as Cabela's. Don't get me wrong I love Cabela's but I like to give the local gun shop more business than Cabela's at least in terms of firearms purchases.
Old 07-03-2009, 03:14 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 911JB View Post
If you are thinking Hipoint, they just came out with a new design.

http://www.rrarms.com/catalog.php?prod=G995TS
Wow, I didn't think it was possible to make the Hi-Point carbine any uglier. It appears I was mistaken.

EDIT: Nothing against them, they're decent guns, but dayum!
Old 07-20-2009, 07:04 AM
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Well we got the shotgun a couple weeks ago. Mossberg 505 youth, 20 gauge, 20" barrel. I'm having a blast shooting it. It very accurate. Shot a little "informal" trap the other day at the public range. Got my targets each time. Gonna do some actual trap shooting this coming weekend. Haven't gotten the now wife to shoot it yet. Will this coming weekend.

Having a hell of a time finding 20 gauge buckshot though. Found some slugs. Right now all I have is about 120 rounds of 7 1/2 shotshells.
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