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Old 05-08-2009, 10:22 PM
bubba5603 bubba5603 is offline
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Default Obama to make Reloading Illegal?



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This is the first time that I ever started a thread here, so I hope that I am doing this right...This is from an OSINT site (open sourced Intelligence) that might be of interest to some.

Start of quote...

Hi

Re article below: I don't see what the fuss is all about.

No private party in America "manufactures" ammunition.....though a few may
"remanufacture" or "reload" it, which is a really slow process unless they
have a "progressive" or "powered" reloading press that can turn out
500-10,000 rounds per hour. Less than half of my friends have such machines
so it's no big deal.

No private party in America has more than 1/2 million primers, the most
critical reloading component.....though I do have a few friends who own, oh
say, 450,000 or so. Actually more than a few friends, now that I think about
it.

No private party in America can rebuild used primers.....unless they know
how to remove the anvil from the cup and then flatten the firing pin indent
in the cup and then insert a new primer pellet composed of the carefully
scraped heads of "strike anywhere" matches that have been carefully
granulated and then soaked in water to turn into a paste and then inserted
into the rebuilt cup and covered by the straightened anvil and allowed to
dry completely, before being reinserted into the primer pocket of the used
brass cartridge case. Good thing that this is a secret process that nobody
knows.

No private party in America knows how to form new cartridge cases....unless
they have bought one of the books on that subject and they happen to have a
metal cup press or lathe handy, which of course, no one does. I'm sure that
none of the 195,000 commercial and home machine shops in America has any of
the requisite equipment.

No private party in America can equal the precision machining that the first
cartridge firearms manufacturers used on their first repeating firearms that
were built in the 1860's......unless they have machine shop experience
(almost unheard of unless they have worked in such places or know how to
read instruction books) and the metalworking machines you can buy off e-bay
or at freight salvage outlets for as little as a few hundred dollars.

No private party in America can make blackpowder.....like all of my friends
did when we were in high school, out of 3 common chemical components that
are widely available in many different formats.

No private party in America can possibly manufacture smokeless powder....the
modern high pressure kind that has been in widespread use since 1895 in
America, unless they are slightly adept at chemistry.

No private party in America can store smokeless powder for later use since
it deteriorates rapidly in storage.....unless you keep it cool and dry in an
airtight container. Even then, it may only last a hundred years or so, as
has the very first batch (1895) of smokeless powder ever manufactured in
America, and which is tested annually.....and it still works perfectly
reliably and it produces full design pressure.

No private party in America can possibly create cast lead bullets out of
wheelweights or fishing lures, car body lead, plumbers lead, or scrap
lead.....unless they are able to achieve 16th century levels of
technological sophistication in casting, which is nearly impossible.

No private party in America can create bullets out of copper, brass, bronze,
or iron rod stock by lathing it to the proper diameter to create a precise
fit in the barrel.....unless they have a lathe or mill and a micrometer of
some sort, which of course, no one has or knows how to use.

No private party in America has a bookshelf full of books describing the
technology and history of firearms and ammunition.....unless they are among
the 5 million most active shooters out of the 150 million firearms owners in
America.

Not that I am recommending that anyone actually prepare for shortages or
purchase restrictions or anything, by buying lots of commercial ammo or ammo
components. I'm just pointing out why the Obama anti-self-defense campaign
might experience a few problems on their way to Big Left Nirvana.

I'm sure that the Obama Administration knows what is best for all of us and
they will be able, if anyone is, to reverse that age old statistical trend,
"GUN CONTROL INCREASES VIOLENT CRIME, by shifting the balance of power to
favor violent criminals, while it disarms helpless victims." Not that we
should go off on a tangent about citizen sovereignty or state-sponsored
internal genocides over the last century, against unarmed citizens. That
just may be a chance we will have to take in order to help Mexico with its
internal crime problem caused by their incompetence in policing. We should
be happy to give up our natural and Constitutional right of self-defense to
help our neighbors to the South. After all, they would do anything within
their power to help us, wouldn't they? Look at what a great job the are
doing on border control keeping their citizens from crossing the border!
Hmmmmm? Well, maybe that wasn't such a great example of helpfulness and
reciprocity, but I'm sure that someone can think of something that they
altruistically do for us.

---
R

_______________________________________________

-----Original Message-----
From:
Sent: May 4, 2009 3:04 PM
To:
Subject: "Illicit Representation"--Reloaders to become "illicit
manufacturers"?

Now about that 2nd Amendment BS.... "The treaty is already signed, we need
to get to work to stop ratification of this attack on the liberty of U.S.
citizens."
Links at source.

--J.

http://oligogracy.
<http://oligogracy.blogspot.com/2009/04/illicit-representation.html>
blogspot.com/2009/04/illicit-representation.html

Posted by BA Lawson

If you reload your own ammo you may find yourself engaged in "Illicit
Manufacturing" of ammunition under an arms control treaty that President
Obama started pushing last week in Mexico. The treaty itself is not new. It
was written back in the 90's and signed by President Clinton, but never
ratified by the U.S. senate. According to an AP article from Mexico City
last week "Administration officials say President Barack Obama will push for
Senate ratification of a Latin American arms trafficking treaty."

Virtually everyone that supports the 2nd ammendment or has an interest in
firearms has heard the numerous recent reports of ammunition shortages. The
shortages have extended to reloading supplies that many folks rely on to
keep their shooting costs down or to assemble exotic or hard to find
ammunition. Many shooters have considered reloading their own ammo as
insurance against limited supplies should legislation be enacted that would
make ammo more scarce or dramatically more expensive. Those thoughts may be
in vain if the current administration is successful in getting the
"INTER-AMERICAN CONVENTION AGAINST THE ILLICIT MANUFACTURING OF AND
TRAFFICKING IN FIREARMS, AMMUNITION, EXPLOSIVES, AND OTHER RELATED
MATERIALS" treaty passed.

In previous reports on this treaty I have found no mention of the impact
that the treaty would have on ammo reloaders. The first definition under
Article 1 of the treaty states(emphasis added);

1. "Illicit manufacturing": the manufacture or assembly of firearms,
ammunition, explosives,
and other related materials:

a. from components or parts illicitly
trafficked; or

b. without a license from a competent
governmental authority of the State Party where the manufacture or assembly
takes place; or

c. without marking the firearms that require
marking at the time of manufacturing.

The section above clearly identifies ammo reloaders that are not licensed by
the government as "Illicit Manufacturers" of ammunition. Now that we have
reloaders properly labeled, lets move down to Article IV to see what we
should do with them(emphasis added);

Article IV
Legislative Measures

1. States
Parties that have not yet done so shall adopt the
necessary legislative or other measures to establish as criminal
offenses under their domestic law the illicit manufacturing of and
trafficking in firearms, ammunition,
explosives, and other related materials.

Again, this is pretty straightforward. If you reload ammunition without a
license after the treaty is signed you will be a criminal.

The administration has not done much to outline the impact of the treaty on
U.S. citizens. I wouldn't be too terribly shocked to find that Obama does
not have a plan for providing reloading licenses to all of the folks that
are currently reloading. There is no way to objectively look at this treaty
without seeing the underlying impact that it will have on the availability
of arms and ammunition to law abiding U.S. citizens.

If you are concerned about the continued erosion of our 2nd Amendment rights
please pass this information along. The treaty is already signed, we need to
get to work to stop ratification of this attack on the liberty of U.S.
citizens.
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Old 06-27-2009, 01:14 PM
Wesinmaine Wesinmaine is offline
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"No private party in America can possibly create cast lead bullets out of
wheelweights or fishing lures, car body lead, plumbers lead, or scrap
lead.....unless they are able to achieve 16th century levels of
technological sophistication in casting, which is nearly impossible."

I hope you were being sarcastic (I'll assume you were). Wheel weights make exellent bullets without sophiscated casting.

Anyway,

Any Treaty we sign with Mexico at this stage of the game should never be ratified by the Congress. Does anyone know when this comes before Congress?
Old 06-27-2009, 01:19 PM
Wesinmaine Wesinmaine is offline
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Sometimes I read too fast to absorb. After re-reading the post I realize the error of my ways and your intent with the post. Right on!
Old 06-28-2009, 09:22 AM
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The Constitution stands ABOVE ALL treaties.
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Old 06-28-2009, 10:00 AM
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I'm with ya Survivalcop. Seriously I doubt many states would follow suit and do what the treaty asks, and make reloading illegal. If the government makes gun owners choose between being criminals gun owners or non gun owners, I have the feeling that quite a few will choose to be gun owners.
We have seen time and time again that outlawing items that large groups do not want, is a straight path to problems. For instance prohibition, how many criminals were created, by a simple law that many thought was for the best. What's worse is these criminals that are created rarely turn back, and continue to breed more criminals.
Old 06-28-2009, 10:01 AM
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Before the Obama bashing begins, can we get a more reliable source for these accusations? CNN? FOX? MSNBC? 9 times out of 10, the information turns out to be false.
Old 06-29-2009, 06:02 PM
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I believe the portions of this treaty that were quoted are valid - this all came up a coupel or 3 months ago when the Mexico drug war BS was all the rage on the news. Here's the problem - This is only snippets of the full document and this proposed treaty relates to the manufacture AND trafficking of arms and munitions.

This is yet another example of fear mongering and US making OURSELVES paranoid.

Just to be clear though, there is a White House full of gun grabbers and they are just waiting for the time to strike - one more mass shooting, etc and they will have the public buying into their anti-2A propoganda.
Old 06-29-2009, 06:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mrtoren View Post
Before the Obama bashing begins, can we get a more reliable source for these accusations? CNN? FOX? MSNBC? 9 times out of 10, the information turns out to be false.
Source:
Quote:
Tuesday, April 21, 2009

Remember CANDIDATE Barack Obama? The guy who “wasn’t going to take away our guns”?

Well, guess what?

Less than 100 days into his administration, he’s never met a gun he didn’t hate.

A week ago, Obama went to Mexico, whined about the United States, and bemoaned (before the whole world) the fact that he didn’t have the political power to take away our semi-automatics. Nevertheless, that didn’t keep him from pushing additional restrictions on American gun owners.

It’s called the Inter-American Convention Against Illicit Manufacturing of and Trafficking in Firearms, Ammunition, Explosives, and Other Related Materials. To be sure, this imponderable title masks a really nasty piece of work.

First of all, when the treaty purports to ban the “illicit” manufacture of firearms, what does that mean?

1. “Illicit manufacturing” of firearms is defined as “assembly of firearms [or] ammunition ... without a license....”

Hence, reloading ammunition -- or putting together a lawful firearm from a kit -- is clearly “illicit manufacturing.”

Modifying a firearm in any way would surely be “illicit manufacturing.” And, while it would be a stretch, assembling a firearm after cleaning it could, in any plain reading of the words, come within the screwy definition of “illicit manufacturing.”

2. “Firearm” has a similarly questionable definition.

“[A]ny other weapon” is a “firearm,” according to the treaty -- and the term “weapon” is nowhere defined.

So, is a BB gun a “firearm”? Probably.

A toy gun? Possibly.

A pistol grip or firing pin? Probably. And who knows what else.

If these provisions (and others) become the law of the land, the Obama administration could have a heyday in enforcing them. Consider some of the other provisions in the treaty:

* Banning reloading. In Article IV of the treaty, countries commit to adopting “necessary legislative or other measures” to criminalize illicit manufacturing and trafficking in firearms.

Remember that “illicit manufacturing” includes reloading and modifying or assembling a firearm in any way. This would mean that the Obama administration could promulgate regulations banning reloading on the basis of this treaty -- just as it is currently circumventing Congress to write legislation taxing greenhouse gases.

* Banning gun clubs. Article IV goes on to state that the criminalized acts should include “association or conspiracy” in connection with said offenses -- which is arguably a term broad enough to allow, by regulation, the criminalization of entire pro-gun organizations or gun clubs, based on the facilities which they provide their membership.

* Extraditing US gun dealers. Article V requires each party to “adopt such measures as may be necessary to establish its jurisdiction over the offenses it has established in accordance with this Convention” under a variety of circumstances.

We know that Mexico is blaming U.S. gun dealers for the fact that its streets are flowing with blood. And we know it is possible for Mexico to define offenses “committed in its territory” in a very broad way. And we know that we have an extradition obligation under Article XIX of the proposed treaty. So we know that Mexico could try to use the treaty to demand to extradition of American gun dealers.

Under Article XXIX, if Mexico demands the extradition of a lawful American gun dealer, the U.S. would be required to resolve the dispute through “other means of peaceful settlement.”

Does anyone want to risk twenty years in a sweltering Mexican jail on the proposition that the Obama administration would apply this provision in a pro-gun manner?

* Microstamping. Article VI requires “appropriate markings” on firearms. And, it is not inconceivable that this provision could be used to require microstamping of firearms and/or ammunition -- a requirement which is clearly intended to impose specifications which are not technologically possible or which are possible only at a prohibitively expensive cost.

* Gun registration. Article XI requires the maintenance of any records, for a “reasonable time,” that the government determines to be necessary to trace firearms. This provision would almost certainly repeal portions of McClure-Volkmer and could arguably be used to require a national registry or database.
I suggest doing some research before saying it's bull****.
Old 06-29-2009, 08:25 PM
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I'm not sure a gunowners.org article is considered a valid source. The gunowners.org article is full of conjecture, sarcasm and hyperbole.

Hey, I am as pro-2A as anyone - NRA Member, CCW holder, and general gun-loving guy but... I'm not going to get caught up in this one and say the sky is falling (or reloading, modifing your gun, joining a gun club, etc, bla, bla, bla is all going to be outlawed).

Come on people, why spread hysteria. There are plenty of real and defined things to worry about. I don;t care for this treaty and pandering to Mexico either but let's not get carried away.

Ok, I'm off my soapbox now. :0
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Old 06-30-2009, 12:38 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mrtoren View Post
Before the Obama bashing begins, can we get a more reliable source for these accusations? CNN? FOX? MSNBC? 9 times out of 10, the information turns out to be false.
You actually think they'll report something like this, and make the people aware? You've got to be kidding.

Straight from the U.S. Department of State:

http://hunting.about.com/gi/dynamic/...eGuide_DoS.htm

This page goes back to 2002, but as mentioned, Clinton signed it, it just needs to be ratified by the Senate. With Obamalamadingdong in office, and his merry band of usurpers, there's a good chance that it can possibly happen.
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Old 06-30-2009, 11:28 AM
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I appreciate the links that people have posted. All interesting to read. However, I still don't see anything that say that reloading ammunition or manufacturing firearms for personal use will be illegal.

Many people don't know it but you can manufacture and own, for your own personal use, your own non-serial numbered firearms with no registration, background check, etc. It is 100% legal if you are legal to own a firearm in the first place and the manufactured firearm doesn't violate state of federal laws for prohibited or controlled weapons.
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Old 06-30-2009, 12:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WyoDuner View Post
Many people don't know it but you can manufacture and own, for your own personal use, your own non-serial numbered firearms with no registration, background check, etc. It is 100% legal if you are legal to own a firearm in the first place and the manufactured firearm doesn't violate state of federal laws for prohibited or controlled weapons.
You think the government won't notice when all the AK47 receiver flats disappear from places like Gunbroker? I'd say you're too optimistic.

You can accuse the government of being stupid all you want, but when they decide to take something away from the peons, they cover all bases.
Old 06-30-2009, 02:55 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sampson1986 View Post
You think the government won't notice when all the AK47 receiver flats disappear from places like Gunbroker? I'd say you're too optimistic.

You can accuse the government of being stupid all you want, but when they decide to take something away from the peons, they cover all bases.
I didn't say anything about the Govt watching or not watching receiver flats, etc nor did I imply that the Govt was stupid. Not sure why you are saying that.

Am I being optimistic? Not at all. But I'm not being pessimistic either. I am trying to be level headed and base my feelings and opinions on fact and reality. Somebody starts a thread asking if Obama is making reloading illegal, then there are comment after comment stating how this treaty will make reloading illegal.

I can't find ANYTHING based in fact that says reloading will be outlawed by this treaty. It states that the illicit manufacture and trafficking of ammo/weapons will be illegal... The way I read that is if you manufacture ammunition/weapons without a license and traffic that ammo outside of this country then you are illegal.

BTW, it is ALREADY illegal to manufacture ammo or weapons for the purpose of resale without a license.... From what I can see, this treaty expands that to include cooperation with other countries to deal with the trafficking of said items.

I don't like any laws, legislation, treaties, etc that in any way shape or form weakens my 2A rights.

I don't like this proposed treaty.

But, I'm not going to panic and read more into it than what it says.

We all talk about the "sheeple"... Well, if we buy into this hype what does that make us???

Sheeple can't think for themselves, I'd like to think those of us on here can think for ourselves and not buy into every conspiracy theory thrown our way because if we can't sort fact from fiction then we are no better off than all those other sheeple.
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Old 06-30-2009, 04:03 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WyoDuner View Post
I didn't say anything about the Govt watching or not watching receiver flats, etc nor did I imply that the Govt was stupid. Not sure why you are saying that.
I was hoping to make the point that the government is going to cover all bases when they decide to do something. If they outlawed guns tomorrow, they'd outlaw all guns...factory manufactured or homemade. Same goes for ammunition.

As a side note, some people don't have to option of building their own weapons at home. I'd love to build an HK91/G3 clone, but I lack the machinery necessary to bend the flat.

Quote:
Am I being optimistic? Not at all. But I'm not being pessimistic either. I am trying to be level headed and base my feelings and opinions on fact and reality. Somebody starts a thread asking if Obama is making reloading illegal, then there are comment after comment stating how this treaty will make reloading illegal.
Well, you're obviously of a different mindset. I, on the other hand, hope for the best and expect the worst when it comes to politicians.

Quote:
I can't find ANYTHING based in fact that says reloading will be outlawed by this treaty. It states that the illicit manufacture and trafficking of ammo/weapons will be illegal... The way I read that is if you manufacture ammunition/weapons without a license and traffic that ammo outside of this country then you are illegal.
Like I said, when the government has a mind to do something, it covers all bases. I don't want to see a bull**** law passed by an ignorant politician and interpreted by a crooked lawyer or judge.

Quote:
I don't like any laws, legislation, treaties, etc that in any way shape or form weakens my 2A rights.

I don't like this proposed treaty.

But, I'm not going to panic and read more into it than what it says.
That's your choice. I'm expecting the worst though. I got caught with my pants down with the ammo shortage scare, I'll be damned if I'll let that happen again, whether it's in regard to legislation or whatever.

Quote:
We all talk about the "sheeple"... Well, if we buy into this hype what does that make us???

Sheeple can't think for themselves, I'd like to think those of us on here can think for ourselves and not buy into every conspiracy theory thrown our way because if we can't sort fact from fiction then we are no better off than all those other sheeple.
I'm not a conspiracy theorist. I'm just distrusting of a socialist government. I'm tired of career politicians, who've never worked a day in their life or wondered how they were going to pay a nagging bill, tell me what my "rights" are.
Old 06-30-2009, 07:01 PM
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Sampson, believe it or not, I am in agreement with your way of thinking - I think we just differ on this particular issue - I don't believe it is likely to impact home reloaders and you are taking a more cautious approach.

BTW, this whole ammo and reloading supplies shortage caught me off guard too....
Old 06-30-2009, 07:11 PM
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The problem in mexico is just that, a mexican problem. The mexican government should fix it. There is ALOT of underhanded stuff floating around at the moment, I try to stay in the know as much as I can. Sadly, ive heard nothing of this. Thanks for the info!
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Old 06-30-2009, 09:01 PM
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Wyo; I have to agree with you on this one. This was posted before and after reading what the actual treaty said over, and over, and over again I did not see anywhere where it was adding any additional laws. It only reaffirms current US laws, and many of the laws we have with other countries regarding arms/ammo importation and attempts to make all countries in this hemisphere follow them.
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Old 07-02-2009, 04:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WyoDuner View Post
Sampson, believe it or not, I am in agreement with your way of thinking - I think we just differ on this particular issue - I don't believe it is likely to impact home reloaders and you are taking a more cautious approach.
I'm a pessimist by nature. I'm usually pleasantly surprised because things don't turn out as bad as I expect them to.
Old 07-02-2009, 09:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mrtoren View Post
Before the Obama bashing begins, can we get a more reliable source for these accusations? CNN? FOX? MSNBC? 9 times out of 10, the information turns out to be false.
Oh, yeah, those are reliable information sources OK.
Old 07-03-2009, 04:45 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PrepperCon View Post
Oh, yeah, those are reliable information sources OK.
They are a lot better than your ultra-conservative, reactionary news websites. No one holds them accountable because they have such a bias base of viewer ship. Talk about drinking the kool-aid..you all are quick to accept rumors and speculation as fact. It then continues to spread.

TV and mainstream media outlets are held accountable by a diverse viewer ship. Democrats keep Republicans in line and vice-versa. Rumors are debunked before they're put out there because popular news sources can't afford to have their names tarnished.

How many right wing websites and pundits perpetuated the false rumor that Obama was a muslim? How many cried out that Obama would reinstate the AWB on his first day in office? Sounds like a reliable source of news to me.
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