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My survival in the war in Ukraine

74K views 250 replies 68 participants last post by  Hunt 
#1 ·
Hi!
I am ordinary former inhabitant of Donbass – region, where is war now. Until end of 2014 I lived in Donetsk and then three months – in small town Dzerzhinsk, where also were combat operations in suburban. Before war I was some kind of survivalist – I had a shotgun, I liked hiking, DIY-hobbies and so on. And when on my city begun fall missiles, I understood that I am completely not prepared to this scenario. Please, don’t judge my text strictly – I do not know English well, but I hope that my experience will help somebody in future crysis. And, also, it can help better understand, what happens in Donbass.
I am not pro-russian and I am not a fanatic ukrainan patriot. I am just a victim of this damned war.

As I have said, I had a shotgun, Maverick 88 – I bought it in April 2014 for 550 $. For permission to buy gun I bribed my well-known policeman. It was last pump-action shotgun in gunshops of Donetsk, other were already bought – somebody wanted to be militant (or separatist, if you like), somebody wanted to protect yourself in emergency cases when police can’t help. I also hoped that shotgun will be good usefull thing, but I was wrong.
I was surprised soon. City police (generally, in Ukraine police called “militia”, but I will use common term “police” for it) was on the side of separatists. They did not anything when they had seen armed men)) I had bought gun in April and already in May in the city had arrived first parties of well armed Russian mercenaries (or volunteers, if you like). Police was on the side of DNR (Donetsk people’s Republic) and can help nothing.
From this moment shotgun was useless. Separatists was armed with AK-74, they constantly walks on two or three and my shotgun unlikely can help me. But, after all, social chaos and rise of robbery in city not happened then. Of course, militants taken away many cars on the their’s check-points and simply on the streets, but they did not robber ordinary flats (as a rule they didn’t it, but were also exceptions…). Police had continued secure order, so shotguns turned out to be useless. I did not say nobody that I had it, because separatists seized hunting guns from civil peoples.

If you are interested, I can also tell about GRAD missile attacks, destructions and shelters, troubles at check-point (separatist’s and Ukrainian army’s) and life when people have not electricity, heating and water.
 
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#97 ·
thank you for warning, but I think even if security services of Ukraine (SBU) have read my private messages they would not find in it nothing suspicious or criminal. There are more than 1 million refugees in Ukraine and very difficult watch all of them.
But, I agry, if I would be in Russia I have to be very very careful))
 
#96 ·
Now there are a few words about most necessary things.
1. Sleeping bag. No, probably, it would be not used for sleeping in a forest, but it is very useful for sleeping in tent camps for refugees and in rent flats, where there are often have not enough beds. Or, besides, in a rent flat might absent blankets and bedclothes. Sleeping bag might be not very warm.
2. Multitool knife like Leatherman or its more cheap analogs. Real useful thing! I have used it many times in very different situations. Often it was single tool in a rent flat.
3. Medicines! I don’t surely know, can common people in USA buy painkillers and pyretic medicines without medical prescription? In Ukraine medicines almost of all sorts can be bought almost free. Really bad situation is, for example, toothache in train, shelter or another undesirable place. In Ukraine are many cheap painkillers – analginum, ibuprofen and drugs contained codeine. My family everywhere has pack of pills.
And, by the way, very useful thing is antidepressant. War is great stress and I used generic of Prozac – fluoxetine.
4. Something that can entertain children. Crying children in shelter or even in own room without electricity is a horrible thing))) We used big-battery smartphone with game “My talking Angela”.
5. Two big backpacks. Really, all that ordinary family needs can be packed in 2 big backpacks.
6. A few clothes and food.

There was one more lifehack in my experience: if in oncoming crisis delivery services still work (it is important to control this moment) it would be better to send heavy things by post. It was rather strange situation: post office in Dzerzhinsk was situated in 2-3 kilometers from hot and loud gunfire battle place and post works! It helped us to send in Kharkov microvawe.
 
#108 ·
Hi George - thanks for telling your story and getting some truth through all the propaganda we get here, too.

My question, is in reference to the Hvrnia - the currency. Our financial media today is reporting high inflation, and high exchange rate for dollars... and even some banks refusing to give cash to account holders. In Kharkov, is this what you're seeing now? How well stocked are the store shelves?

Also, are you able to find work?
 
#110 ·
Yes, inflation is crazy. here is diagram of it http://news.yandex.ru/quotes/40043.html
Gas per week becomes for 40% more expensive.
Prices for food rise but not very fast because many food is ukrainian, not imported. And prices for imported electronics and clothes (almost all clothes are turkish and chinese) rise very fast - per year all this prices rise for 300-400 %. One year ago 1 $ costs 8 UAH and now 1 $ costs 32 UAH. Goods and food is present but become more expensive day by day.

I have a diploma of philologist but this profession is almost completely useless now. I have a distant work as freelance copywriter, it allows me free change places of living. But, unfortunately, market of advertising texts is falling to zero now :)
 
#109 · (Edited by Moderator)
My wife have repaired PyPal account - PM Me (This mail belongs to time when my wife liked to play computer shooters)
I have to definitely explain that all of your proposition to help very touch me. But I don't lie and I'm not weak, ill or very hungry man. I have a few accumulated dollars and some kind of distant work that helps me to pay my rent flat. My posts here are not for begging. But, from the other hand, situation is quite fragile... Point is crazy inflation in Ukraine now - every week national currency lost 20-30% of its value. So food and everyday things becomes more expensive every day. If you want to help me, you can send a few dollars on this account - it can help me in hard moment.
And I have to say that "a few dollars" is not a rhetoric - for example, 10 $ is more than 300 UAH today, and for this money all my family can eat 2-3 days. So I do not need big money and please don't send me millions))


****MOD EDIT*****
Email removed for poster's security.
 
#111 ·
My wife have repaired PyPal account - (This mail belongs to time when my wife liked to play computer shooters)
You do realize that publishing this email here reveals your wife identity and links her to this thread?
Next time she looks for the job, if somebody googles her email, this thread will come up first out 4 search results, along with couple jobs she applied for in 2010.
 
#116 ·
If he needs food, I would imagine the rewards would out weigh the risks. But it's a certainly a good point.
 
#124 ·
Good to hear you've got a roof over your head, information at your finger tips, and a way for donations to get to you. We have people on these forums donating money to people for writing fiction novels, based on survival and preparedness, so if they can do that, I figured I would ask if you had a means for people to donate too (if they choose, and more importantly, if you want.)

Please keep your story going. We are learning from you.
 
#125 ·
I don't know about anyone else, but I think this thread is one of the most valuable on this site - very similar to the Argentina survivor who's become somewhat famous now on various prepper sights for describing the financial collapse there.

George, I hope of course that things turn out well for you, but I also hope you remain on the Boards as our friend.

Another (of yet hundreds of) question:

1 - You mentioned that the druggies and drug dealers were all taken care of almost immediately. Was it the Ukrainian or separatist forces or civilians who removed them? My country has serious drug and drug crime issues.

2 - Can you inform us how you did as a parent for your children? How did they react and how you were able to take care of them? This is an important issue for many of us who are parents.
 
#126 ·
50-60% of all separs are local inhabitants. (Other 40% are Russian mercenaries/volunteers). Almost every local civilian here can easy find local drug dealers – it is not a secret. Predominantly drug dealers here are gypsies. They live in their compact ghettos (of course, it is not officially called so, but little districts of gypsies are inhospitable for another people and there are whole streets of cottages where only gypsies live) and don’t fear police and people from another districts. Usually gypsies sold surrogate of opiates and homemade surrogate of amphetamine. Addicts of this drugs were very unloved people in closed to gypsy's ghettos districts for its antisocial behavior. And, when time had come, local guys with new AKs explained drug dealers that assault rifles are more persuasive than knifes and steel tubes.
I don’t surely know were some dealers killed or not, but total number of addicts in the city becomes very little. I think that was advertising trick of separs to show their benefit for city as a new power.
My children (3 and 10) surprisingly were good girls, they were not capricious. Youngest daughter philosophically endured changes of cities and rent flats and eldest daughter generally too, but grumbled that she was forced to change 3 schools per year. Thank God, children have not health problems. Youngest daughter did not fear explosions but eldest did.
 
#130 ·
Do whatever to protect your children, they are most important in situations you are facing..

Stay safe.
Own family first, but "whatever" is way too strong word when used in this forum, where people are talking killing others and looting for their children.
Yes in war it might mean killing to protect your life, but then it was absolutely necessary what you would like to avoid if possible. (Who would like to end in situation where it is "kill or to be killed?")

sarge912 said:
my one burning question is where did the separatists get all of their weapons from?
I'm not George, but some weapons at very start were stolen from police stations what I know. Right now, My bets go to the Russia.
 
#128 ·
Hey George, my one burning question is where did the separatists get all of their weapons from? You mentioned how difficult it was to get a shotgun. I see pictures of guys at checkpoints carrying gear that would cost several thousand American Dollars. I don't remember seeing this kind of thing at the Renok or the Barabashova (Spelling?) not even at Target. (yes, they have a Target in Kharkiv!)
 
#132 ·
Oh, it is very painfull question! For ukrainian government :)
Today answer is very clear - from Russia. But at the beginning of conflict main porvider of weapon (first assault riffles, pistols, RPGs and even several armoured vehicles) was ukrainian police stations and military bases, captured by separs without serious resistance. Untill june 2014 most of weapon was trophy. It is really shame for local police and soldiers who easy gave their guns to separs. And from summer 2014 started his work russian "Voentorg" - analogue of Ho Chi Mihn Trail in Vietnahm War.
 
#129 ·
Now I am going to say about missile attacks.
Usual artillery was not a main firepower of conflict. Artillery batteries of both sides were easy detected by special radars and quickly suppressed by enemy fire – because they could not quickly change position. So artillery did not shoot very often. But multiple rocket launchers GRAD could quickly take comfortable position, do volley and go away in a few minutes. Enemy after that falls down rockets at the empty place – and at the close to it civil buildings…
Words of year in Donbass were “incoming” and “outgoing”. It means: “Do you hear this explosion? Was it sound of close cannon’s fire (“outgoing”) or sound of blasts of enemy shells that are flying on us ("incoming")? Was it safe rumble of “our” cannons or devastation blasts of enemy shells?”. “Our artillery” and “enemy’s artillery” generally had not political subtext – cannons that fired you from unknown far place were “enemy”.
But this divination about incoming and outgoing sounds concerns only usual artillery. GRAD has exclusive sound. WHHEEEOOOOO!!! When rockets started it was definitely one sound and when enemy’s rockets fell it was ordinary blast.
It may sound very surprisingly but it is a checked fact – crazy long fire of GRADs might kills… no one! Really! Such hard fire often destroyed many buildings in one way or another, but casualties, as a rule, were insignificant. Point is rocket of GRAD is mainly splinter than high-explosive. Concrete walls of ordinary buildings were not bad defense against fragments, only window glasses broke. Yes, there were cases when direct hit destroyed all flat and even several flats but it were rare cases. Generally, old soviet apartment houses demonstrated cool durability. No one was crushed like a house of cards. But I have said, basic structure of the city suffered very much, and it was even worse than casualties.
We are talking now about usual 5 or 9 floor concrete buildings. But small cottages were harmed critically. Brick wall is not serious defense. Even not direct hit but close blast can demolish half of cottage. And heavy fragments could break through walls. As ill luck would have it most hot district near airport was district of cottages… It was almost destroyed.
There was curious detail about sounds. Point is that GRAD blasts were very-very LOUD! I can surely say that:
- At a distance of 45-50 kilometers cannonade of rocket blasts sounds quiet but distinguishably.
- 10 km – windows don’t prevent sounds of blasts.
- 5-7 km – glasses aloud vibrate
- 2-3 km – walls and floor vibrate
- Less than 1 km – thin glasses can be broken (if blast wave was not stopped by other buildings)
It is curious that loud sounds groundlessly scare people. For example absolutely harmless blast at a distance of 3-4 km perceived like a last sound in your life. Many people, like my parents, could not get used to it.
And in conclusion I have to say about our flats and houses. My flat was in 5 floor apartment house – as I know it is intact. But at the other side of the building blast blew out two balconies. My sister’s flat also is intact now, except cracked glasses of the balcony. Cottage of my parents also is intact except cracked wall between rooms, not external. May be some powerful blast moved foundation a few. But all of us decided not to tempt fate and gone away.
 
#134 ·
It is curious that I knew personally first leader of Donetsk separs - Pavel Hubarev. He studied at the historical faculty near my own filological faculty. We often chatted while breaks. After University he became an internet con man and owner of bot net. After that he was petty local politico. I remember one conversation with him before local elections in 2010. I ask him, why he want to take part in elections. And he answered that he hopes to get access to sold a part of city land. Funny guy...
 
#135 ·
It is curious that I knew personally first leader of Donetsk separs - Pavel Hubarev. He studied at the historical faculty near my own filological faculty. We often chatted while breaks. After University he became an internet con man and owner of bot net. After then he was petty local politico. I remember one conversation with him before local elections in 2010. I ask him, why he want to take part in elections. And he answered that he hopes to get acces to sold a part of city land. Funny guy...
I moved out of Ukraine in 1999, but I can see - nothing changes :)
 
#148 ·
#149 ·
George, is the Church able to help people? I am an American convert to the Orthodox Church. Some of my friends think Putin is a great guy because he goes to Divine Liturgy and pretends to be a Christian. Most of us think he is just using the Church for his own reasons. I do not admire him. I think he is still a KGB thug.
In this part of my country we have some churches that are ROCOR (Russian Orthodox Church Outside Russia) and we have OCA (Orthodox Church in America) which used to be part of the Russian Church but is independent now. Can any of us Orthodox contribute to a church organization that will help you?
It grieves me and makes my heart sad that my Russian and Ukrainian Orthodox brothers are fighting against each other.
I will pray to the Theotokos and to St. Elisabeth the New Martyr for you.
 
#154 ·
Thank you for your prayers!
Really, this war has strange quasi-orthodox subtext. One of the separ's unit is called Russian Orthodox Army, but, of course, members of this "Army" consider themselves like some kind of midlleaged crusaders without any attention to commandments of love and forgiveness. It is very sad, really, that, in fact, two largest orthodox nations killed one another.
I know that big monastery in Svyatohorsk lodged many refugees. But generally I don't know any special Orthodox organiztaion that has a mission to help refugees. I think every parish little by litlle helps single refugees.
 
#153 ·
About pistols. Actually I had one - but it was not a gun in direct sense. It was former blank pistol Zoraki-914. This turkish pistol had a plug in the barrel and it was very easy extracted by screwdriver. Zoraki-914 had 9 mm caliber and cartridges for it were interchangeable with rubber-bullets cartridges. Generally, this pistol was not bad and even had a full-auto option (almost useless). But my gun had unknown trouble with extraction of case. I tried to solve this trouble by different ways but it was without results. So after every shot I was forced to pull the breechblock by the hand and firing was very slow and uncomfortable.
When war was started I even did not consider this funny toy as a real gun.
 
#157 ·
George, very interesting reading so far. I have learned a bit. Tell me, are you one of these people that signed up to spread the word?
http://www.blacklistednews.com/Perception_Managers%3A_35%2C000_individuals_have_reportedly_signed_up_to_join_Ukraine%E2%80%99s_%E2%80%98information_army%E2%80%99/42237/0/38/38/Y/M.html
 
#158 ·
George, very interesting reading so far. I have learned a bit. Tell me, are you one of these people that signed up to spread the word?
http://www.blacklistednews.com/Perc...e’s_‘information_army’/42237/0/38/38/Y/M.html
Link does not work, but I understand your point:) I think, members of "information army" don't write about inaccurate fire of Ukrainian army, one-sided ideology of new ukrainian power and fear to be robbered by greed ukrainian soldiers :)
Really my first post and start of "ukrainian information war" unfortunately coincided. I have arrived in peaceful Kharkow from hot Dzerzhinsk about two weeks ago and after first period of adoptation on the new place begun to write this "memories". I have choose american forum because a) want to improve my bad english and b) russian and ukrainian forums are totally politized and my story would start tons of flood and hatespeeches.
 
#159 ·
George, thanks for your view from the front information. I've got almost 30 relatives in Ukraine (Kyiv and Kremenchug) and have been discussing their situation with an eye towards planning. Other than keeping the teenagers away from Maidan, the closest brushes they have directly had with the war was the assassination of Kremenchug's mayor last summer. Indirectly, we are coping with the massive devaluation, banking problems and food prices which are occurring.

You seem not to mind the questions so mine follow:

Are you feeling there is a possibility you might be conscripted/mobilized for service?

What have you heard about the conscription of others?

What do you recommend for a means of sending money into Ukraine from Europe or North America?

How safe do you regard travel via trains and mashrutka AWAY from the war zones right now? Specifically, Kharkiv to Kyiv/Lviv or Kremenchug to Kyiv.

Do you feel GENERAL safety and security against criminals is up now when compared to normal periods in the past?

Do you think it's realistic for an American to come in there and attempt to make the trip to Kremenchug via train for a 2-3 week visit?

You stay safe and I, for one, really appreciate your reporting on this situation.
 
#160 ·
Wow, so much questions for my slow english! :)

1. Mobilization is painfull question. I don't lie - I don't want to be mobilized. I am only breadwinner of my family. I have bad sight. But, after all, main point is my very critical attitude for situation in modern ukrainian army. Probably, you know that almost all supplies for army provide volunteers. My friend, well-off man, in April 2014 supplied one army unit. I helped him. It was first time when I got acquainted with army life. Soldiers in field camp ask my friend provide toilet paper, cask for imporvised shower, their commander ask at least one tablet to browse maps. Unit had no one staff gadget! Unit had not generator of electricity, medicines (almost all of soldiers were a cold), sleeping bags and other nessesary things. Half a year passed away and in Dzerzhinsk I have seen same ukrainian soldiers - dirty, cold and unshaved. Nothing is changed. I even don't want to say about military issues and losses. If I would be killed my family don't get pension or compensation, because there is a trick many dead soldiers considered as missing. May be, someone may consider me as a coward...

2. Generally, mobilization is not very numerous, For example, in Kharkov region must be mobilized 2000 men - and were mobilized only 600. Statisticaly chances to be mobilized are not very high.

3. Systems Western Union and Moneygram work in Ukraine well almost in every bank.

4. Travel from Kharkov to any other city is completely free and safe. It is peaceful city yet. Except routes from ATO zone, all others trains and buses don't checked hard and their passengers don't need any special passes.

5. Level of criminal activity have became more high. My friends were robbed at New Year.

6. I think, completely yes. Kremenchug is far from danger zone.
 
#161 ·
If you don't mind, I'll post a bit of perspective from someone with family back from the front. It gives an idea of what's "really" happening on an ongoing basis as things lead up to open warfare. (Mods: If George thinks I'm hijacking I of course have no trouble if you break this to a new thread of Ukraine from the sidelines.)

This may seem like an Ant and Grasshopper saga but there's also a good deal of Stages of Acceptance with Arrogance, Ego, Confusion, Denial, Grief, Despair and Anger to spare.

My family is "safe"....or are they?

A bit over a year ago, the relatives in Kyiv were excited at the protests underway to bring about some much-needed change in government. The first few days and weeks were heady times indeed. Despite at least three other reformations to break the institutional corruption and criminal activities of the oligarchs over more than two decades, the people were optimistically thinking that FINALLY things would change.

PrepTalk: My family knows about my preps and I mentioned to several household heads that it would be a good time to increase the food on hand, especially formula for the infant, canned goods and mixes. All of our homes have water filters (Bria-type canisters) and I suggested they purchase extras and pick up a couple of replacement filters. I also suggested that they review meds. They listened, laughed and said that this was another peaceful revolution and nothing would happen. My step-son was adamant that he should be there to see history made.

A few weeks into the process there began to be confrontations, brawls and then gunfire. Immediately the families tightened up. Teens were told to stay away from the demonstrations, the adults (mostly) became more wary and the women stopped venturing into downtown. Unfortunately, the egos and testosterone of three of our younger adult males overflowed. Patriotism, like love, can make you do stupid things. Fortunately, one was involved in a large scuffle and by the second month or so all but one were steering clear of the entire downtown zone unless required by work.

Preptalk: After one uncle was involved in the scuffle, the wife stepped in and laid down the law to the step-son to stay away from the protests. Again, food preps were urged. The closest they got to that was laying in a few more cans of soup and veggies along with some extra jars of preserves (usually apricots, but some raspberries too). We ordered the step-son to go to his grandmother's home and buy more soup mixes (not ramen, Knorr's stuff) and some canned products. The relatives freaked out when my wife passed along the request that they lay in some extra jars of sala (basically lard). I don't eat it the way they do (basically like butter on bread and crackers) and they were surprised that the American wanted them to get some extra.

When the President fled, they couldn't help but get involved in the victory celebrations. A new election was scheduled, things seemed to subside. The new government stumbled a bit but seemed to be firming up with coalitions and the start of some changes.

Preptalk: Going on their opinions and the international news, I let down a bit. Things seemed okay for a month or two or three. They were not interested in prepping or staying prepped.

Then Crimea was occupied.

They were mostly in shock that the neighbor (neighboring country) just moved in and took their tourist and strategic military region. Within two months they had lost much of their Navy, several key bases, equipment inventories, vehicles and several of their leaders.

Still, they insisted this would not mean war. There was no need to prep, this was merely political. Yes, a lot of Crimeans are "ethnic Russians", the economy is impacted by the presence of the fleet (not as grand as it sounds) and you don't have to be a rocket scientist to realize a lot of Russian military people have married into the local population or retired there since the 50s. That said, nobody local believes 93% of the population wanted the break and annexation by the Russian Federation.

Preptalk: I went back into gear, advising they stock food, watch conditions and think about what would happen if there was a repeat of the Georgian invasion.

Total denial.

They decided I was nuts. There was simply no way Russians would fire on Ukrainian brothers despite their differences.

In fact, Ukrainians ARE Russians. Google the Kyivan Rus and read where Russians came from. However, like a dozen other of the former Soviet Republics, particularly like Moldova, Belarus, Georgia and Kazakhstan, they mostly (70+%) wish to be their own nation again.

Then the "rebels" popped up.

They were in complete disarray. In typical Russian fashion they put their heads down and refused to consider things could get worse.

Preptalk: By this point former students were contacting me for information on getting jobs in other countries and possibly getting into the US, Canada, Australia, UK and the rest of the EU as students going for graduate degrees. Several were successful, many were disappointed that there was really no easy way to do it quickly or without money so they went back into hiding. None were interested in BOBs, GHBs, food stocks, keeping enough cash for transport to the Western part of the country or anything the people on this forum take for granted.

They were paralyzed.

We cannot abandon our apartment!
There are so many ATMs we don't need to carry cash!
What about just going outside of town to the dacha?

** Forget what you heard or read about dachas being vacation cabins and villas. The majority resemble the slums of Brazil, Cambodia or India and are suitable as living quarters only during a few months of summer by a limited number of people. Many still lack indoor plumbing and in a group of 40-50 you might have 4-5 grandfathers and grandmothers overnighting there to dig potatoes or pick berries to take back to the cities unless it was a summer weekend in which case there might be 40-50 people there. They would only be suitable shelters if the alternatives were troops chasing you with dogs and guns, rocket barrages or your neighbors with pitchforks. More than a few are simple tool sheds.

Won't the EU take us in as refugees?
The government will take care of it. <==== My favorite.

My frustration level was high.

Everyone wanted advice, nobody would take it. I would gladly trade an in-law or two for someone with George's mindset.

The PRESENT

My family members are all well back from the war zone but nerves are tight and the fear is there that the men will get called up and sent to battle.

Cities that are falling short of mobilizing their quotas are rumored to be visiting workplaces, sweeping cafes and accompanying the traffic police at checkpoints to examine papers (in their country EVERYONE has the propiskya) and register their info for followup by the military. Think of press gangs from a couple of centuries ago.

The devaluation of the currency has created massive inflation and those with 5 digits of dollars in the bank are devastated by their losses.

Only one BiL (a former Red Army Captain) seems to have made minimum preparations for bailing out westward.

MiL is adamant that her "friends" will help her and things will not get too bad so she's away from the rest of the family support in a fair-sized apartment...alone.

My step-son's company is a multi-national and transferred him to Poland with his wife. When my wife heard this, 55% of her concerns for the situation vanished. Like George mentions, some of my family's and son's friends (not family members) have used the word "coward". Words have been exchanged, tensions exist and relationships have been broken.

It's my feeling that the 8 or 9 households involved are FINALLY beginning to SLOWLY stockpile food, keep a bag with papers and some clothing packed, and the beginnings of jack-leg emergency kits are being assembled.

Will it be enough?

Will they wake up before a rocket hits THEIR building?

George's personal account, coupled with this write-up, should give you an idea as to my expectations.

All the things we read here about reaction times of the masses, even some of those who try to prep, are correct IMO. This is how you get roads jammed with refugees, labor gangs formed from civilians, lost children, outbreak of disease and a lower level of nutrition among a population.
 
#178 ·
All the things we read here about reaction times of the masses, even some of those who try to prep, are correct IMO. This is how you get roads jammed with refugees, labor gangs formed from civilians, lost children, outbreak of disease and a lower level of nutrition among a population.
The person I was speaking to the other day about the civil war in Sarajevo was telling me about how one day they were going out for dinner in the evening and socializing with their friends and then the next day men with guns wouldn't let them leave their apartment building. Something tells me that she wouldn't/couldn't/didn't see the signs.
 
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