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Storing Waterbricks

6K views 35 replies 17 participants last post by  randkl 
#1 ·
I just bought some. Is it okay to store them on the basement concrete? Or should I put something underneath?
 
#3 ·
I have 6 of the 3.5 gal bricks stacked in the basement. I put a film lined cardboard tray underneath just in case I had a leaker. You need to be careful that the rubber gasket inside the lid is seated correctly. If not they will leak even if the cap feels tight. I did that and had no leaks so the tray was not needed. They are very heavy duty. Watch the bear vs brick video on YouTube
 
#7 ·
Cardboard is fine. So is plywood. Cardboard needs to be changed every few years though.

Plastic is semipermeable and should never go down directly on concrete. Some kind of barrier is necessary.

Remember that concrete is susceptible to hydrostatic pressure which will force compounds up to the surface along with moisture. When it meets the semipermeable plastic it will leech through eventually.

If you can combine the barrier with a drip pan it's even better. Look into a low cost washing machine drip pan on top of the cardboard or plywood. Home centers sell them cheap enough.
 
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#13 ·
Plastic is semipermeable and should never go down directly on concrete. Some kind of barrier is necessary.

Remember that concrete is susceptible to hydrostatic pressure which will force compounds up to the surface along with moisture. When it meets the semipermeable plastic it will leech through eventually.
No character assassination attempts here, just hoping for cordial discussion.

I have read many instructions, and plenty of forum posts that advocate exactly what you are saying, Zeke... keep the plastic barrel up off the concrete. I have done so myself with all my barrels. However, the further I look into this phenomenon of alleged concrete leaching, the more I question the validity of the concept.

First of all, I see it noted here, on Myths and Facts of Water Storage, where it is stated...
Water Storage Myth: Don’t store your water barrels on cement. Water Storage Fact: Actually, there’s always a missing component to this myth. The key is not to store your water barrels on HEATED cement, and even that’s questionable advice. To store your water in your basement on the cement floor is just fine. There’s no need to make your barrels less stable by putting them on 2 x 4s. Cement only leaches chemicals when it gets hot. If you’re going to store your water in your garage, where the sun heats up the connecting driveway cement, then yes, I’d consider raising your barrels up on floor boards or such.
Looking around a bit further, I noted someone asking, if this is true (that concrete leaches chemicals into water), then why are there concrete cisterns? That sounds like a good question to me.

I have 3/4" plywood between all my water barrels and the concrete floor. What do I know, right? ;)
 
#9 ·
Still working the character assassination model of debate I see.

Easier than actually making a cogent argument, right?
 
#10 ·
Character assassination? Huh?

I asked you a simple question, sport.

What exactly are you planning to live through that you will have to live off of stocks for 20 years....and chemicals in the dirt under your concrete basement floor leaching up and through your super heavy duty water container worries you? That would suggest that you plan to be storing the same water for an awfully long time. I'd like to get some sort of a picture of what *you* seem to be worrying so much about.

That word is "leach", btw. Many folks get that one wrong. I still do now and then, myself.
 
#14 ·
Well then, I see where you have your ignorance I can remedy.

Here is the easy version: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Concrete_degradation

If you don't like Wiki then try a local FD notice: http://sandy.utah.gov/government/fire-department/fire-prevention/emergency-water-storage.html

How about a university website: http://sandy.utah.gov/government/fire-department/fire-prevention/emergency-water-storage.html

FEMA: http://www.fema.gov/media-library-data/20130726-1508-20490-1300/fema_b_526_eng_r1.txt

Do not store any plastic water container directly on concrete to prevent contaminating chemicals leaching from the concrete into the water and also degrading the plastic bottle.

Remember these emergency sites are not thinking about long term time scales. They are talking about time scales that fit under the "expiration dates" of store bought water bottles, namely under a year or two. The absorption through plastic is not on long term time scales. It happens quite fast.

As for my motivation for trying to survive as long as I can that is really none of your business, now isn't it?
 
#15 ·
Cardboard is a bit of a sponge and is easily degraded by surface moisture. Chemicals will migrate through it eventually. Eyeball it annually to see what shape it is in. Or if you get it wet then replace it.

No character assassination attempts here, just hoping for cordial discussion.
No worries, screeno. It's just a thing randkl has with me.

I have read many instructions, and plenty of forum posts that advocate exactly what you are saying, Zeke... keep the plastic barrel up off the concrete. I have done so myself with all my barrels. However, the further I look into this phenomenon of alleged concrete leaching, the more I question the validity of the concept.

First of all, I see it noted here, on Myths and Facts of Water Storage, where it is stated...
There are some variables involved. Remember that safety advice tends to be in KISS format so folks don't get bogged down in the details. But the fact that you have many kinds of concrete, what ends up being used to finish it or gets spilled on it, and even what the soil underneath is like means there MIGHT BE A CHANCE of transplastic migration. And short of sending an expensive team of experts out to test everything you won't know for sure. Far easier for the experts to tell you to stuff plywood beneath and call it a job done.

Looking around a bit further, I noted someone asking, if this is true (that concrete leaches chemicals into water), then why are there concrete cisterns? That sounds like a good question to me.

I have 3/4" plywood between all my water barrels and the concrete floor. What do I know, right? ;)
Ah, the cistern thing I can help with. Typical concrete cisterns are lined with either epoxy or special cement finish coatings. You don't use a bare concrete tank as a cistern these days. Yes, it was done in the past that way but now we know better due to lab testing.

As for the plywood, it just means you've decided it was just easier to slap something down that you knew would work rather than get caught up in all the details. I like your style. :thumb:
 
#16 ·
Not to derail but the water bricks seem like a really expensive way to store water.. 20$ for 3.5 gallons? Why not buy the 5 gallon water containers and stack them sideways in crates or a couple of 55gallon drums for 20$ a piece.
I get the portable factor of having 1 or 2 but the prices i am seeing like 112 gallons for 664$..seems outrageous. Plus if you plan on bugging out with your water don't forget your looking at about 8lbs per gallon in weight and will push a vehicles weight limit pretty quick.
 
#19 ·
Most folks here agree that while a nice water container that Waterbricks are overpriced. Aquatainers, especially on sale from Fleet & Farm, are a better value choice.
 
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#18 ·
I use squares of interlocking weight room floor padding. From Walmart. A single 2'x2' square will handle a 55 gallon drum base quite handily. ~$19 for a set of six squares. Doesn't absorb water or mildew.

I use on both bare concrete and also on a tiled floor. The padding keeps full drums from scratching grit into the surface of the tile.



http://www.walmart.com/ip/Gold-s-Gym-6-Piece-Puzzle-Mat/11089966

A roll of yoga mat would do the same thing.
 
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#20 ·
Just to put a word in on the concrete stuff, concrete is a lot more permeable than most people imagine. My current job is is all about developing and manufacturing treatments which prevent chemicals from passing through the concrete. These chemicals/elements (such as calcium, sodium, high alkalinity stuff) can ruin the surface of the concrete, and pass through to whatever is on top, well within the lifetime of stored water. ASR, alkali-silica reaction is a big issue(this will destroy the surface of the concrete), efflorescence, salt(as in NaCl) passing through the concrete is another, and so on. While heat and hhumidity are a small factor, they really don't make as big of a difference as the mixture of the cement, topical coatings, ground chemistry, and so on. So, basically, putting something between the bare concrete and the container is a good thing, if you plan on leaving it there months/years, regardless of where it is. As for the concrete cisterns, I can promise you that there is a ton more ground prep and chemical alterations to the concrete in that cistern than there are in the flooring of your home.
 
#24 ·
Epoxy leaches BPA, remember....and the "special concrete" is simply pure Portland cement without sand to limit the porosity. Coatings are done to protect the concrete from destruction and leakage, not to protect the water. Water is easily changed, the concrete isn't.
 
#25 ·
There are 5 classes of epoxy, only 2 of which use BPA, and only about a hundred derivatives of those 5 types with more being invented all the time. Epoxy is far more diverse than most think. There are epoxy coatings specifically formulated for potable water storage and transmission. And if epoxy still makes you nervous you have quite a few urethane coatings as well. Talk to your closest PPG coatings expert and he'll give you at least a dozen choices depending on your location and situation.

As for cement lining they do far more than just slap portland cement on. It is typically mixed with Krystol Internal Membrane which adds powdered silica quartz which pretty much stops capillary action and hydrostatic pressure. Other recipes from the past that are still viable are lime plaster with linseed oil or sanded portland cement with a paraffin top coat.

Just finished a 5 million liter potable storage pond in December using the Kryton Krystal admix. Works like a charm.
 
#26 ·
randkl,
I think you'd be surprised at how diverse concrete mixtures can be, in fact, concrete is easily changed depending on the application and money spent. A Costco warehouse's concrete is going to be fairly different than a suburban sidewalk job in cement mixture, finishing, and treatment. Both of those applications will be different from underwater pylons and cisterns, in many different ways. Concrete really is nearly the most diverse and capable construction medium on the planet, and it's really interesting to learn about, if you enjoy that type of stuff. IamZeke, sounds like you know your stuff; in addition to epoxies and urethanes, there are a lot of other types of coatings, I happen to specialize in low VOC densifiers/sealers, which address a lot of the shortcomings of epoxy's and urethanes in certain applications. So, I'm probably a little biased against epoxies. Anyways, concrete is cool stuff, and there is a lot for me to learn still.
 
#28 ·
concrete is easily changed
No, it's not. It's impossible in a lot of cases, a pain in the ass and weeks of work in others.

As for cement lining they do far more than just slap portland cement on
Pure Portland is and always will be the most common method of lining and repairing farm cisterns....and not one coating I've ever seen was designed to protect the water from the concrete. Of course, if you know any and can cite them, I'll be glad to read them. And I don't mean "food grade" that's ok for drinkable water storage....I mean ONE cistern coating designed to protect the water from the concrete.
 
#29 ·
No, it's not. It's impossible in a lot of cases, a pain in the ass and weeks of work in others.
The first major user was the Romans and their concrete still exists in many places in salt water today after 2000 years. No modern cement can touch that kind of longevity. Fact is we don't even know precisely how they made it and cannot replicate it today. So obviously concrete can be changed, because there have been changes made so long ago we have forgotten the recipe.

Pure Portland is and always will be the most common method of lining and repairing farm cisterns....and not one coating I've ever seen was designed to protect the water from the concrete. Of course, if you know any and can cite them, I'll be glad to read them. And I don't mean "food grade" that's ok for drinkable water storage....I mean ONE cistern coating designed to protect the water from the concrete.
I already pointed out a common product that changes concrete for water storage. Silica quartz as aggregate. You can buy it from Kryton in 5 gallon buckets.
 
#30 · (Edited)
The cement mixture, as IamZeke pointed out, has been changed many times over many many years, Portland is the current standard, but did you know there are different types of Portland? And that it hasn't always been the standard? I was mistaken to say concrete is easily changed, what I meant was cement. Concrete, once poured and dried, is harder to change, but, hey, that's what a jackhammer is for. Having spent 12 hours behind a bobcat removing a floor, I know how hard it is to change. Thankfully it wasn't by hand. I don't really have experience with cisterns, so if it works for you, I'm glad to hear that. That being said, coatings are mostly for the concrete, to protect it from deterioration and whatnot. Given the number of different coatings available, I am sure there are some that are food grade. Let me google that real quick.

Thoroseal
A cement-based, waterproof coating for concrete and masonry. It is NSF approved for sealing concrete or masonry tanks storing potable water. It is also used to seal the concrete base of culvert tanks. To waterproof such a tank it is typically used in conjunction with another product, ACRYL 60, which improves the adhesion of the sealer to the tank. I have used this product to seal precast concrete septic tank cisterns. Thoroseal is manufactured by Chemrex.
In Tucson it is available from Border Products: (520) 623-4100
www.chemrex.com

Cement Slip (aka Cement Slurry or Nil)
NSF 61-certified Portland cement mixed with water to form a thin paste (no sand or gravel added). It is used to seal cement, masonry, and ferrocement tanks. Apply the slip to a 1/4-inch thickness with a trowel on the same day the concrete tank is poured or plastered. Cover the tank with a tarp after the slip has been applied to keep humidity in the tank high and to prevent the slip from drying too fast and cracking. When the slip is firm, but still green, spray it lightly with water or set a bucket of water in the tank to enhance humidity, and cover the tank again with plastic or a tarp. Keep the slip moist and covered (shaded from the sun) for three weeks for thorough curing.

AMES Blue Max
A special blend of adhesive, high-strength elastomeric liquid rubber. It is a new impenetrable rubber technology for waterproofing in extreme wet situations such as flat roofs, below-grade foundations, basement walls, cisterns, water troughs, catch basins, ponds and fountains. Technicians for Sustainability uses it to seal the interior of their steel culvert tanks set in a concrete base. It can be ordered at many ACE Hardware locations. Notes: Water coming in contact with Blue Max can be expected to have a slight chemical flavor. Also, this product is not certified as such by NSF, but the manufacturers claim it is safe for use in potable rainwater catchment systems.
www.amesresearch.com/bluemax.htm

Antihydro and Antihydro R
Admixtures of organic and inorganic chemicals used to waterproof concrete and increase its workability, strength, hardness, and durability. According to the manufacturer, mixing Anti-hydro within a concrete mixture produces impermeable concrete that is hard, non-dusting & safe for potable water.However, I was not able to obtain information from the manufacturer on what entity approved the products’ use with potable water.
Anti-hydro is intended for use in temperatures below 850F. Anti-hydro R is intended for use in temperatures exceeding 850F. Anti-hydro products are manufactured by Anti Hydro International, Inc.
www.anti-hydro.com

XYPEX HD-150
A concrete waterproofing coating approved by NSF for use in potable water tanks and cisterns. It must be applied to bare concrete only. According to a representative of the manufacturer, XYPEX HD-150 is marketed for homeowners, though it is the same product as XYPEX Concentrate which is marketed to concrete contractors. XYPEX HD-150 is manufactured by XYPEX Chemical Corporation.
www.hi-dry.com/index.html

Found at http://www.harvestingrainwater.com/...alers-approved-for-contact-with-potable-wate/
Those are a combination of sealers and admixtures, just from one site that is by no means comprehensive.
IamZeke, for your information, the reason our concrete has nothing on the Romans, is because the cement mixtures are made at the batch plant to dry as fast as possible, so construction can be completed as fast as possible. There is a relationship between the dry time and the strength of the concrete, and we can batch concrete that will last for centuries, but it would take significantly longer to dry and finish. No contractor wants to wait multiple days to finish the concrete, that's why the standard has evolved to wear it is. Suffice to say, concrete is very versatile.
Now that the thread is thoroughly derailed, hopefully OP got the answer he wanted. Also hope somebody found this information interesting at least.
 
#31 · (Edited)
IamZeke, for your information, the reason our concrete has nothing on the Romans, is because the cement mixtures are made at the batch plant to dry as fast as possible, so construction can be completed as fast as possible. There is a relationship between the dry time and the strength of the concrete, and we can batch concrete that will last for centuries, but it would take significantly longer to dry and finish. No contractor wants to wait multiple days to finish the concrete, that's why the standard has evolved to wear it is. Suffice to say, concrete is very versatile.
From what I've read they mostly stuck with hydraulic concrete that had unique alumina ash admix. I'm sure if scientists and engineers were truly interested in replicating the old school stuff they could eventually do it, but we have just become accustomed to to using modern portland varieties.

Yet as prefab concrete structures become more popular I believe that revisiting the Roman methods would make a lot of sense for those concrete works not made on-site. Concrete overpass I-beams and large concrete drainage tubes come immediately to mind as great candidates to fashion the Roman method.

Edit: Found that the Romans used Pozzolana: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pozzolana
 
#32 ·
So obviously concrete can be changed,
Wtf????

I wasn't talking about changing its formula, slick. I was talking about changing it out when it's damaged. That's what those linings and coatings you were popping off about are for. Protecting the existing concrete from damage and leakage because it can't be changed out of its location easily. You *did* notice when about a half a dozen people in this thread have talked about damaging the concrete, right? My sentence was
water is easily changed, the concrete isn't
. If you somehow assumed that I meant the chemical formula of the concrete in that sentence could be changed then how do you assume I meant the chemical formula of the water could be?
 
#34 ·
#35 ·
More info on the how and why of Roman Concrete:

http://www.romanconcrete.com/docs/spillway/spillway.htm
"... the Romans followed a placement method of tamping their stiff mortar into the voids of a rock layer. And interestingly enough, the new concrete that has been developed by the Bureau of Reclamation follows closely that of the ancients."

The "Secret" of Roman concrete is half recipe and half placement... labor intensive placement at the time.
 
#36 ·
Concrete will also degrade the plastic bottle causing failure.
That''s the key sentence on that fire dept site. It's a topic we've been over many times in these forums and yet not one of the experts in this thread mentioned it. The reason you use cardboard or ply or blue foam is to pad the container from the concrete....not the water. On the micro scale, it's the same as you laying down on a marble. It might not hurt right off, but if you sleep there long enough, it will just about cripple you. Wooden pallets are the same. A full tank, large enough, will try to force its plastic down between the boards and it'll eventually crack the plastic. Imagine you laying on a mattress that's laying directly on the frame cross boards with no box springs etc. You need to fill in the spaces with extra boards or use a sheet of ply on top of the skid. Nails in the skids can start to back out and puncture the tank, too, so always make sure you tap those down smooth and solid before using a skid.

Yes, pad a tank. But do it for the right reason. Rough concrete will eventually damage a container....micro-cracks in a container will eventually damage the concrete.

If something leaching through your floor, through your container into the water scares you, switch out your water more often. It's not rocket science.
 
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