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Old 10-23-2007, 09:05 PM
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Default Bug out vehicle...EMP proof



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Hey all need some advice I have spent the last several days reading a TON of stuff here and I have a question. My bug out vehicle is a 1995 2dr Tahoe with a 350 V-8. Is it old enough to survive a emp? If not what if any mods may I do or extra parts should I have on hand? I live in a large town 40 miles west of Chicago and in a bad situation I will probably need to get out of town. Thanks in advance for any input or feedback.
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Old 10-23-2007, 09:14 PM
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an EMP that would be powerful enough to take out a vehicle would be massive in size. There is no working "portable" EMP. Electronics is my passion.

That being said. For an emp to shut down the vehicles computer it would have to be a powerful pulse, in DC, that would confuse the car's computer long enough to think that there was a massive short somewhere. This would trigger the computer to shutdown, but the computer system in a car isn't like a home computer. After a massive ground fault it will turn itsself back on again with no problems. They have no boot cycle and are well protected enough for an electric shock to do no damage to them. You can drive your car down the road, leave it in gear, and shut the key off. The engine will stop running, but turn the key back to the normal run position and it is instantly running again.

Think of this like you would think of a powerline falling on the car. it is pushing massive amounts of power through the metal but nothing from it can hurt the cars electrical. It is too well grounded within itsself (not to the earth), and DC power is way different than AC in terms of power disruption.

For an electrical blast to stop a vehicle it would have to make direct contact with the engine block (which is a vehicles main ground) and put out enough juice to fry ignition components (i.e. plug wires, powerpack, coil, etc.) but that would take a major amount of power, and would still be virtually inneffective against any vehicles electrical design.

edit: I know they show this happening in movies and there is plenty of talk about it happening, but it is simply something that does not exist right now. Maybe in a few years the technology would come that could make such a device, and there is a working EMP that the Navy tested, but this was mounted to the front of a carrier ship and was a large as a small house. The area of effect from this monster EMP was only like 50yards, and in that yard radius, there was a measured response from testing equipment, but nothing that could stop the electronic systems from functioning.

Last edited by AnimateDeath; 10-23-2007 at 09:21 PM..
Old 12-09-2007, 02:01 AM
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A portable EMP is known as a nuclear bomb.

The failed Navy test just served as a means to hide the truth, that they really do have portable non-nuclear EMP generators as well, but that is most likely to remain unconfirmed due it's tactical value. And yes, I think a unmodified 1995 vehicle is vulnerable to EMP, and if that EMP is strong enough to fry your vehicle, it's going to fry any other electronic gear thats not in a Faraday cage.
Old 12-09-2007, 03:08 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AnimateDeath View Post
an EMP that would be powerful enough to take out a vehicle would be massive in size. There is no working "portable" EMP. Electronics is my passion.
Not true. They have had semi portable models since at least the 80's, if not earlier. Recent models can be built on the cheap that are quite effective. You don't need electronics to build one at all.

http://science.howstuffworks.com/e-bomb3.htm

Quote:
Originally Posted by AnimateDeath View Post
That being said. For an emp to shut down the vehicles computer it would have to be a powerful pulse, in DC, that would confuse the car's computer long enough to think that there was a massive short somewhere. This would trigger the computer to shutdown, but the computer system in a car isn't like a home computer. After a massive ground fault it will turn itsself back on again with no problems. They have no boot cycle and are well protected enough for an electric shock to do no damage to them. You can drive your car down the road, leave it in gear, and shut the key off. The engine will stop running, but turn the key back to the normal run position and it is instantly running again.
Not at all. EMP is a pulse weapon that generates energy from anywhere from around sub-AM band (100hz-30khz; LF) on up to microwave (3-5ghz) depending upon source. These waves are not direct current at all, they are AC and of quick, rapidly rising, quick decaying but immensely strong power. Consider it like being right next to the antennas on a broadcast TV station, but even more powerful and dangerous, but not RF unless the energy is converted.

Cars have many circuits that use FETs, Transistors, ICs, and many other small and delicate parts for running relays, control systems, and many other critical areas. Feeding high power EMP or even RF into such a device will cause the gate barriers to brake down and freely conduct from gate to collectors or from source to drain. The only devices you can be sure won't brake down (and still can to an extent) are radiation hardened and hermetically sealed devices. IRF carries many of these devices on the mark, all be it some costing as much as a spare computer (which you could do and leave in a ziplock bag, wrapped in aluminum foil.

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Originally Posted by AnimateDeath View Post
Think of this like you would think of a powerline falling on the car. it is pushing massive amounts of power through the metal but nothing from it can hurt the cars electrical. It is too well grounded within itsself (not to the earth), and DC power is way different than AC in terms of power disruption.

For an electrical blast to stop a vehicle it would have to make direct contact with the engine block (which is a vehicles main ground) and put out enough juice to fry ignition components (i.e. plug wires, powerpack, coil, etc.) but that would take a major amount of power, and would still be virtually inneffective against any vehicles electrical design.

edit: I know they show this happening in movies and there is plenty of talk about it happening, but it is simply something that does not exist right now. Maybe in a few years the technology would come that could make such a device, and there is a working EMP that the Navy tested, but this was mounted to the front of a carrier ship and was a large as a small house. The area of effect from this monster EMP was only like 50yards, and in that yard radius, there was a measured response from testing equipment, but nothing that could stop the electronic systems from functioning.
If you truly believe it's DC, then let me point out the fact that if it was it would be akin to the Earth's pre-existing magnetic field and of no harm except to navigation, and this just isn't the case. The waves are unlike AC from powerlines too. The frequency is much higher, and since LF doesn't act like low-frequency AC (<10khz) they can jump through holes in the vehicles shell or up and through holes near the engine mounts.

Links:
http://www.heritage.org/Research/Mis...bg1372map1.gif
http://www.strategypage.com/qnd/urba.../20010524.aspx

Let me note that while the vehicles shell, while metal, will protect the car to some extent, its not because it's like lightning. The shell acts like a deflector/reflector more akin to antennas. This effect is greatly used in satelite dish's, due to the parabolic shape, to focus the energy twords the real antenna. In otherwords, the exterior is bouncing off the energy much like it would a bullet. This is the sole reason it's hard to get signals in fringe zones with cellular while inside your car.

I also have quoted data from my teachings in Electronic Engineering and Computer Science at college. If you'd like a book that discuses some technical areas of this in regards to the happening inside the components, I'd suggest Cambridge University Presses excellent all around electronic book title "The Art of Electronics" by Paul Horowitz and Winfield Hill.

I'd also suggest taking a look at some of the material on this site in the downloads section. It's very enlightening. Also search for studies on the military's testing.

As for securing your vehicle, I'd suggest covering up areas lacking coverage , with holes over 2-4 inches of most concern. If it's not metal body, it may have trouble on SHTF day. A manual transmission may help to be able to start the car, but I'd watch for systems failing such as pressures readings, temperature sensors, fuel controls, air/mixture controls, etc. If it's metal it's most likely fine the way it is.
Old 12-09-2007, 03:18 AM
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PS: Squirrel and I are right, they do have them:

http://stinet.dtic.mil/oai/oai?verb=...fier=ADA013620
http://www.rttc.army.mil/resources/8975.htm
http://www.fas.org/spp/starwars/cong...as197010_1.htm


I have seen pictures of such a device, with a large storage capacitor on the back of a semi-rig. I believe the call such devices "EMPG/T" for ElectroMagnetic Pulse Generator Transportable.
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Old 12-09-2007, 09:57 AM
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What are those devices cops have,that they can aim at a vehicle,and kill its electronics? Wouldn't that be just a low level emp weapon?
Old 12-09-2007, 10:46 AM
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I have a similar vehicle that I depend on.
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Old 12-09-2007, 10:50 AM
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I think it operates more like a taser. I wouldn't trust any vehicle with computers guiding it like they've had since the 90s. They regulate gas efficiency, fuel mix, ect- there's even a rumored 'kill chip' that's supposed to make the engine commit suicide after so many miles. I don't know if I believe that, but it's a safe bet that electrical disruptors will permanently retire onboard computers
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Old 12-09-2007, 04:07 PM
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Reason number 12 that my Secondary BOV is an old Chevy. No computers to fry.
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Old 12-09-2007, 05:11 PM
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Quote:
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Reason number 12 that my Secondary BOV is an old Chevy. No computers to fry.
Exactly what to do! Smart man!
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Old 12-09-2007, 05:18 PM
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Well I am glad that I have my 85 ford . If that is not old enough my '42 willies jeep should do.
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Old 01-30-2008, 07:09 AM
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from what I have read..the more exxspensive cars r more suseptible as they have more computers on them..the older vehicles stand a better chance given the same situation...ie)same distance from the bomb..and the further away from the blast u go..u will find more of cars will start..that have computers..who knows..the articles I have read differ..so who to believe is the prob..then u got to hope hes right
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Old 01-30-2008, 01:22 PM
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How about something like a Wrangler? (with a few modifications)
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Old 01-30-2008, 01:39 PM
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Horse - The ultimate in EMP proof vehicles.
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Old 01-30-2008, 02:10 PM
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the stuff iv'e read says that the majority of vehicles will not be affected by an emp, as previously thought.
Old 01-30-2008, 02:12 PM
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if your really worried keep a points type distributor for your small block chevy so u could swap it out and keep on truckin.
Old 01-30-2008, 06:07 PM
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Old cars or trucks with points ignitions and carburators are the only EMP proof vehicles that I know of. I would even keep spare battery, plugs, condensors, and ignition switches in a faraday cage just to be on the safe side. It's been said that 95% of all vehicles will be DEAD in the water in the event of an EMP attack. The grid would go down and it would be 1850 again. It would take many years to recover from a full blown EMP attack because EVERYTHING we rely on has very vulnerable electronic components to run it. I have studied this subject extensively and it is VERY, VERY BAD. Just something else that I worry about. See ya, Spam
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Old 02-01-2008, 04:47 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Spam70 View Post
Old cars or trucks with points ignitions and carburators are the only EMP proof vehicles that I know of. I have studied this subject extensively

my diesel car with mechanical fuel pump, engine and well everything and doesnt even have a radio wont be affected by EMP many people seem to overlook them, in a crisis nearly all trucks will work and are tough, can carry alot of gear and large fuel tanks


diesel cars and trucks that are mechanical with no electrics for the engine still can brand new wont be effected they have no points to burn out, no spark plugs, no electrics really on the engine

Last edited by GQtim; 02-01-2008 at 07:33 AM..
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Old 02-01-2008, 03:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GQtim View Post
my diesel car with mechanical fuel pump, engine and well everything and doesnt even have a radio wont be affected by EMP many people seem to overlook them, in a crisis nearly all trucks will work and are tough, can carry alot of gear and large fuel tanks


diesel cars and trucks that are mechanical with no electrics for the engine still can brand new wont be effected they have no points to burn out, no spark plugs, no electrics really on the engine
Exactly! Generation 1 Dodge trucks with Cummins 12 valve are completely mechanical. I'm not 100% sure but I think the years are like 1986 thru 1992 does anybody else know for sure?
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Old 02-01-2008, 04:02 PM
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everything ive read says that emp dont actually stop cars, unless your parked under power lines or a metal tower. somebody's been watching "the day after" on AMC. if your that worried get a points type distributor to put in your car, thats if its carburated.
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