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Old 11-06-2013, 08:34 AM
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Originally Posted by owlspot View Post
For those of you who are mathematically (sp?) gifted (I am NOT one who is...)
What would happen if everybody paid a flat 5% on their gross income - no one would be exempt..... I think that the IRS would have less to do..... we could supplement fossil fuel by burning the tax code...... but, seriously, could the government run on 5% from everybody? Wouldn't that free up enough money for 'Joe the Plumber' to help get the economy up and running again?
What if Government workers were part of the same Social Security system the rest of us are, wouldn't that help it remain solvent?
If our government had to access the health care system just like the rest of us do, wouldn't that stabilize it?
Our founding fathers considered it a privilege to do what they did - pledged their fortunes and their very lives to create the republic. We now have a 'house of lords' that we support in a manner they have become accustomed to.

One last question..... Now that we have what we have for a government, how do we make it smaller... isn't that a bit like trying to stuff the gene(sp?) back in the bottle?
Yes, but it is like 10%... and that assumes government at the current levels (or at least levels two years ago)... and it is easy to collect thus you can get rid of the IRS too.. imagine that!
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Old 11-06-2013, 08:54 AM
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Originally Posted by RandiTS View Post
The article was about the .O1%, not the 1%...

Big difference when you compare an average income (not salary, INCOME) of think it was $202 million vs the 1% avg household of approx $342k..

And, when you consider most of it is on things that are considered capital gains and they already paid taxes on what they first invested, you shouldn't have to pay a high percent when you are being taxed the second time on it.
Actually, if you do some easy research on the IRS website and some older laws that are still in effect, you will find that a "payroll" tax (the tax taken out of our pay checks) is completely ILLEGAL. You are not supposed to be taxed on a service that you provide. When you go to work at just about anywhere, you are providing a service, whether it be, collect money at a toll road or design websites for large companies, you are providing a service and being compensated for that service, being taxed on this is ILLEGAL, what you are SUPPOSED to be taxed on is when you take that compensation from the service you provided and you invest it into something else and you make a profit. That is what should be taxed. So we have all been paying taxes from our paychecks to the IRS (which is actually owned by England, read IRS publication 6209, it is 400 pages long, but when you are done, you will have been mind raped) are all illegal taxes that have been garnered from us to pay back the England when we borrowed guns and money from them to fight them during the American Revolution, the civil war, and other times when we borrowed money from them. Imagine what China is going to do.
Old 11-06-2013, 09:25 AM
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Originally Posted by ScottPreps View Post
This wouldn't work. Not even a little bit. Wouldn't nearly cover the basics.
Considering current net tax collections total 12.5% of GDP, it might be possible to set the sales tax rate high enough to collect an adequate amount of revenues. A few things to consider are there are a whole lot of people working under the table and not providing any tax revenue. We would be able to collect taxes from tourists coming in from outside the country. For me, it would be a wash. I'd pay about as much in sales tax as I do in income tax.
Old 11-06-2013, 09:56 AM
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Originally Posted by HarrySachs View Post
The problem is, that life isn't fair, and there is no right
answers. 'cept maybe having a fair tax. Get rid of the
IRS and only pay taxes on stuff we buy.

I don't want a piece of their income. Its theirs. But on
the same hand I want the little bit I earn to stay in my
pocket as well. That's hard to do with super inflation.
My sentiments, Harry. If you can swing a $100,000 boat, and pay the
taxes/insurance, etc. go for it. I don't have any water here abouts for
one. So, no need. Besides, I'd rather pay tax on what I buy, because
I make most of the things I want with raw materials. Save a lot of money.
Especially on plumbing, electrical, etc.
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Old 11-06-2013, 10:25 AM
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Originally Posted by rvmsbh View Post
Actually, if you do some easy research on the IRS website and some older laws that are still in effect, you will find that a "payroll" tax (the tax taken out of our pay checks) is completely ILLEGAL. You are not supposed to be taxed on a service that you provide. When you go to work at just about anywhere, you are providing a service, whether it be, collect money at a toll road or design websites for large companies, you are providing a service and being compensated for that service, being taxed on this is ILLEGAL, what you are SUPPOSED to be taxed on is when you take that compensation from the service you provided and you invest it into something else and you make a profit. That is what should be taxed. So we have all been paying taxes from our paychecks to the IRS (which is actually owned by England, read IRS publication 6209, it is 400 pages long, but when you are done, you will have been mind raped) are all illegal taxes that have been garnered from us to pay back the England when we borrowed guns and money from them to fight them during the American Revolution, the civil war, and other times when we borrowed money from them. Imagine what China is going to do.
I'd love to see the quoted verbiage for this claim. I just downloaded the 636 page publication and this is what a quick search through it turns up:

The number of the times the following words were mentioned:

Britain: 0
England: 0
UK: 1 (context: country of citizenship for purposes of filing)
Crown: 0
Queen: 0
U.K.: 1 (BMF 390-398 U.S./U.K. Tax Treaty claims, cross border pension treatment)

I am unable to find a meaningful reference to anything related to England. Here's the link, it's a *.pdf for those security minded folks:

www.irs.gov/pub/irs-utl/document6209.pdf
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Old 11-06-2013, 10:57 AM
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Originally Posted by OldCorps View Post
The AR would be a legitimate expense, but the vacation...no, that is tax fraud. Did you know the IRS will give you 10% of all monies recovered when you turn in a tax cheat? On the other hand, you may find out your acquaintance isn't telling you the truth.

But on another note - let's look at that $1300 vs $1000 that you came up with. The $1300 "pretax dollars" for the "working man" versus $1000 "income" for the rich. You forgot a few things in there and misnamed the $1000 as "income". It isn't income. That $1,000 has to come from somewhere, so, either it comes from a capital investment (someone put cash into the business) which then means it was probably that $1300, or it comes from profits (which means the company had to have revenues that exceeded the cost of the product being sold). You have to think through the issue, not just skim it.

Now, something nice about living in America, you also can create your own business (go buy 40 acres and start farming. you, too, can buy an AR 15 for your business).
1) Im not sure what you are getting at with the comment about revenue/profit. If a wealthy person takes in $1300 - say via a S corp, LLC or LP distribution to themselves and they buy a $1000 AR. They will pay income tax on the $300 that is left but not on the $1000 required for the AR. They will end up with say $200. If joe survivalist makes $1300 and buys an AR for $1000, he ends up with zero leftover $ because he paid $300 tax on his $1300 income.

2) This is true and everyone should do it. All the people with BOL and working farms should put them in corporations and deduct every single expense that comes through related to that business. This includes food, guns ammo etc required to run the farm.

If you sell things or generate any income that is not through a regular job, it should go through the farm so the expenses can be deducted from it.
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Old 11-06-2013, 11:58 AM
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Originally Posted by txprep View Post
1)

2) This is true and everyone should do it. All the people with BOL and working farms should put them in corporations and deduct every single expense that comes through related to that business. This includes food, guns ammo etc required to run the farm.
OK, but you could also point out that the farmer can deduct a business expense if he is a sole proprietor too. He doesn't have to have a corporation.

Anyone who needs an AR for their business is entitled to deduct it (corporation or not), (well, to depreciate it and deduct the deprecation, not just deduct the whole cost of the AR at one time.)
Old 11-06-2013, 12:01 PM
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Originally Posted by OldCorps View Post
This is so much BS. You really need to go learn how it works and stop believing hype/gossip on the internet.
im just saying that tax evasion isnt the only mechanism people have to protect their wealth... one of them being access to exogenous money supply.
Old 11-06-2013, 12:04 PM
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Originally Posted by ScottPreps View Post
The bottom line in the article seems to indicate that the super rich, and this makes sense of course, make a lot of their money off of so-called unearned income. Things like dividends, which are taxed at preferential rates. (At least, long term dividends.) The idiots that suggest taking this away seem to completely forget this is a major incentive for all manner of investing. It would utterly destroy a great many companies, hurting who? Everyone.

Another advantage the super rich have that wasn't mentioned is time. That is, if you've got piles and piles and piles of money, you can afford to wait things out. Even things like a whole democratic presidency. You could just let the passive income accumulate at the preferential rates and not even care about making "extra." Or, make your money overseas and just not re-patriate any funds until / unless the tax climate is favorable.

The only answer here that's even passably fair may be the estate tax. I.e., the Death Tax. While I'm generally against it, there's some logic to having some limits on this. Otherwise, this can build on itself whereby in just a few generations an amount of wealth can be concentrated that is unhealthy for an entire economy. At what Net Worth should this be? $10 million? $50? I have no idea.
I have to disagree on your estate tax comment. First, I know of no reason some accumulated family wealth should be "unhealthy". For whom? Secondly I do not endorse the government confiscating any wealth that is legally earned.

The pretext of this whole thread is exactly what the progressives want, arguments about how to redistribute wealth from those who earn to the leviathan government. My approach is simple. No new taxes until the government demonstrates those already collected are wisely spent. No budget increase until GDP doubles from current levels. After that we can discuss small budget increases that are less than the rate of GDP growth. (Why not equal? Just as businesses grow I would expect efficiency increases. Government should do the same. Not decreases as we see today.)
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Old 11-06-2013, 12:06 PM
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Originally Posted by rvmsbh View Post

So we have all been paying taxes from our paychecks to the IRS (which is actually owned by England, read IRS publication 6209, it is 400 pages long, but when you are done, you will have been mind raped) are all illegal taxes that have been garnered from us to pay back the England when we borrowed guns and money from them to fight them during the American Revolution, the civil war, and other times when we borrowed money from them.
Tell us about your experience when you were kidnapped by aliens who performed those experiments on you while on the spaceship.
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Old 11-06-2013, 12:36 PM
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One technique to get ahead and stay ahead that I've seen, is to get your own business up and running and then petition to have the guns of the state make it harder if not impossible for anyone else to start a business that competes with yours.
Old 11-06-2013, 01:08 PM
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Originally Posted by Spade View Post
How about we tax the lower 46% more because they are the ones getting all the services? You get what you pay for.
Not entirely true. The wealthy benefit disproportionately from:

1) security and exchange commission which minimizes stock market cheating, thus increasing values
2) laws allowing tax deferred retirement plans causing lower and middle class people to play in the stock market at historically high rates
3) corporate liability protection
4) corporate ability to donate money for political purposes
5) ability to deduct "business" expenses
6) military disproportionately benefits those with more assets
etc
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Old 11-06-2013, 01:58 PM
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I have to disagree on your estate tax comment. First, I know of no reason some accumulated family wealth should be "unhealthy". For whom? Secondly I do not endorse the government confiscating any wealth that is legally earned.

The pretext of this whole thread is exactly what the progressives want, arguments about how to redistribute wealth from those who earn to the leviathan government. My approach is simple. No new taxes until the government demonstrates those already collected are wisely spent. No budget increase until GDP doubles from current levels. After that we can discuss small budget increases that are less than the rate of GDP growth. (Why not equal? Just as businesses grow I would expect efficiency increases. Government should do the same. Not decreases as we see today.)
I like your thinking franklin. I usually express it like this to my representatives.
"Until you demonstrate fiscal prudence with the funds you have already I will vote no for any new taxes or fees. Once fiscal responsibility has been demonstrated I will consider new taxes and fees on an individual basis and its merits of necessity."
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Old 11-06-2013, 02:39 PM
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Agreed! Pretty strange that all the sleezeballs that have websites for porn on the internet are thriving but our great and wise leaders can't build a website that works.
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Old 11-06-2013, 02:42 PM
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Agreed! Pretty strange that all the sleezeballs that have websites for porn on the internet are thriving but our great and wise leaders can't build a website that works.
Because people want porn and they don't want Obamacare?
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Old 11-06-2013, 03:26 PM
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How the rich get richer?

Dow at all time high. That's one way.
Old 11-06-2013, 03:58 PM
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How the rich get richer?

Dow at all time high. That's one way.
You do realize that it's not only the rich who invest in the stock market right? Do you have a pension? 401K? Insurance of any type. All of those companies are invested in the stock market. And all of those things benefit you.
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Old 11-06-2013, 05:21 PM
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A few years ago the SEC estimated that 45% of publicly traded stocks on the US exchanges was owned by pension funds or other retirement investments. That number may be off a bit recently but certainly the average middle class American benefits through stock price appreciation.
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Old 11-06-2013, 06:33 PM
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Originally Posted by HarrySachs View Post
The problem is, that life isn't fair, and there is no right
answers. 'cept maybe having a fair tax. Get rid of the
IRS and only pay taxes on stuff we buy.

I don't want a piece of their income. Its theirs. But on
the same hand I want the little bit I earn to stay in my
pocket as well. That's hard to do with super inflation.
I agree completely with this guy! Why makes things harder than they have to be?!?!?
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Old 11-06-2013, 09:20 PM
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my 2 cents

there is a difference between tax evasion and tax avoidance

the rich or those working to get that way, practice tax avoidance and abhor tax evasion.

tax evasion is breaking the law, tax avoidance is using the tax code to ones financial benefit.

90% of working folks will never really be rich, the reason being, not that they don't work hard (most do) but they do not work smart or take any risks

rich folks generally work very smart and take huge risks comparatively speaking.

having owned several businesses over the years, early on as sole prop and then getting smart and going with C corp i think i can outline some successful strategies available to any guy that wants to work and take a little risk.

almost no one will ever get rich working for the other guy, however there are exceptions those certainly are not the rule... so...

figure out what you are good at, and set up a business to provide that product or service, and then work to be the best at what you do... set it up as a corporation from day one.

keep your nose to the grind stone, and use the tax code to its full benefit afforded to you as a corporation to avoid unnecessary taxation.

avoid getting a big head and save your money, or invest it in solid investments, not fancy vacations, boats, cars and other toys... avoid instant gratification and embrace delayed gratification.

a small one man corporation that is well run, with the owner working hard can amass significantly more wealth than he will by working for another company.

at the end of 10 years the difference will be on the order of 3 to 1 in favor of the one man corporation, go out to 20 years and retire early.

there are an amazing amount of things that you can legally do as a corporation that you cannot do as a working stiff.

yes there are risks, but hell working for another company has not guarantee's these days anyway.

seems to me the bigger risk is simply being complacent and continuing to work at a job for some other guy or company.

a man only has x amount of hours to sell in his lifespan, he might as well get the best return on those hours? why sell those hours for anything less than the market will pay for them?

example:

mechanic working for a shop, maybe he makes 20 bucks an hour and the shop labor rate is 80 bucks, or he makes 25 and the shop rate is 100...

same guy takes a risk and goes out on his own, sets up a corporation and as a one man shop... is his shop worth less than the shop he came from? not unless he decides this to be the case! my experience has proven this not to be the case... the customer wants quality and worries about labor hour rates as a secondary concern. so...

he puts his rate at either 75 or 95 bucks at hour, to provide a bit of incentive and what do you know? he finds he will not have to work near as hard, however if he works smart he now has the opportunity to make several times what he made working for the other guy...

all this before he finds what tax benefits are available to him! things like his tools are now fully deductable, shop truck and its insurance, his health, dental, eyecare, along with the deductables are now fully deductable. he can put something like 15% (and it might be much closer to 25%) of his income into a retirement plan, fully funded by his corporation via pretax corporate income and not out of his gross income... the list is quite impressive.

the little guy can avail himself to the same benefits afforded GM and other mega corporations... he just works with numbers that have the decimal point moved to the left maybe a dozen spaces.

i could go on for hours on this topic

bob g
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