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Old 09-24-2013, 07:55 PM
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Smile Mil-spec standards



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(Bolt)-
Mpi bolt
Pressure test (hpt) bolt
Shot peeked bolt
Black extractor spring insert
Properly stacked gas key
M16 bolt carrier
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
(Barrel)-
Mil-spec barrel steel
Mpi barrel
Pressure test (hpt) barrel
Chrome chamber and bore
1:7 rifling twist
5.56 chamber
M4 feed ramps
Front sight base(FSB)
Taper pins at FSB
Parkerized under FSB
Double shield hand guards
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
(Lower)-
Mil-spec dia. Reciever extension
Stacked castle nut
"H" buffer
Mil-spec dia.FCG pins
-----------------------------------------
Things I find to be important for a hard use gun if your a plinker it's not a big deal ! Worse case your gun jams or breaks and a few targets or cans get spared lmao ! But if your a hard use multi purpose m4 do yourself a favor

Combat tactics•summer 2010 chart made by m4carbine.com members and rob sloyer !
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Old 09-24-2013, 09:24 PM
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Oh we meet again.

Additions for you. Your bolt for mil-spec is made from 158 carpenter steel.

I was gonna add the correct numbers for the proper grade aluminum for the receiver and the barrel steel but I am on my last beer of a 6 pack and they currently escape me! One ends in 50 and one in 75 or something. Haha, yay beer!
Old 09-24-2013, 09:31 PM
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Default Yea

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Originally Posted by Andrew Jackson View Post
Oh we meet again.

Additions for you. Your bolt for mil-spec is made from 158 carpenter steel.

I was gonna add the correct numbers for the proper grade aluminum for the receiver and the barrel steel but I am on my last beer of a 6 pack and they currently escape me! One ends in 50 and one in 75 or something. Haha, yay beer!
The thing is there is no need for numbers guy ! See this is a funny thing people need to learn to do there own research I don't condone into it people the whole enchilada I say give them a plate and glass of water and let them take it and run with it (research) ! If they choose not to run with it (research) the. They don't get fed (learn) ! It's ok to give a little not a lot ! The point is to force people to educate themselves by intriguing they're minds which in my opinion this died ! It's enough to get you to understand and specific alloys and numbers and such should be they're job to look up ! This isn't about who is smarter dude if that's the axe then this site is all wrong ! To many people spend time trying to be smarter than the next and like they're chest out I'm just trying to be a valuable person to all and help not run compition with anyone !
Old 09-24-2013, 09:34 PM
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Originally Posted by Celtic_warrior84 View Post
The thing is there is no need for numbers guy ! See this is a funny thing people need to learn to do there own research I don't condone into it people the whole enchilada I say give them a plate and glass of water and let them take it and run with it (research) ! If they choose not to run with it (research) the. They don't get fed (learn) ! It's ok to give a little not a lot ! The point is to force people to educate themselves by intriguing they're minds which in my opinion this died ! It's enough to get you to understand and specific alloys and numbers and such should be they're job to look up ! This isn't about who is smarter dude if that's the axe then this site is all wrong ! To many people spend time trying to be smarter than the next and like they're chest out I'm just trying to be a valuable person to all and help not run compition with anyone !
Wasn't trying to be rude bro. Just contributing to the thread is all.
Old 09-24-2013, 09:35 PM
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Default Sorry

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Oh we meet again.

Additions for you. Your bolt for mil-spec is made from 158 carpenter steel.

I was gonna add the correct numbers for the proper grade aluminum for the receiver and the barrel steel but I am on my last beer of a 6 pack and they currently escape me! One ends in 50 and one in 75 or something. Haha, yay beer!
I blieve I may have overreacted a bit I apologize but it's like everyone is running compition on here and be witty and they're isn't a need ! Its sad I was so excited to join this site I always wanted to join and finally did to find people kinda trying to be the smartest and etc I thought I'd learn and spread knowledge but everyone knocks anything I say
Old 09-24-2013, 09:36 PM
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Default I'm sorry

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Wasn't trying to be rude bro. Just contributing to the thread is all.
Like I said I'm defensive and I'm sorry ! Your right thank you for contributing I apologize it's me for real I'm tripping and being defensive for nothing seriously ! Thank you for contributing
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Old 09-24-2013, 09:42 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Andrew Jackson View Post
Oh we meet again.

Additions for you. Your bolt for mil-spec is made from 158 carpenter steel.
-Shot peened
-Tool steel extractor, also shot-peened
-Colt "Gold" extractor spring w/black buffer

I was gonna add the correct numbers for the proper grade aluminum for the receiver and the barrel steel but I am on my last beer of a 6 pack and they currently escape me! One ends in 50 and one in 75 or something. Haha, yay beer!
More additions! 7075 is the alloy you are looking for. You can break the BCG into so much minutia it's amazing...

Grade 8 gas-key bolts
Tool-steel gas-key, chrome-lined
Properly staked
etc.etc.etc.


...really, though, what I find easier is to simply buy a quality item from a quality company and not MMQB it too much>
Centurion
BCM
Daniel Defense
Colt

All have BCG's which are G2G, as do others.

However...Now Colt is shipping M4's with H2 buffers in them, as I understand it. HPT testing has been shown to reduce bolt-life while providing negligible benefit in weeding out bad bolts. Free-float rails have been shown to increase bolt life, so on and so forth. The M4 platform is evolving. Sometimes, like in the case of SOCOM and the McFarland gas ring and the reversion back to the 3-piece standard setup, on the MK18's, it takes a step back to what is tried and true, though, as "newer" isn't always meaningful.
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Old 09-24-2013, 09:44 PM
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I blieve I may have overreacted a bit I apologize but it's like everyone is running compition on here and be witty and they're isn't a need ! Its sad I was so excited to join this site I always wanted to join and finally did to find people kinda trying to be the smartest and etc I thought I'd learn and spread knowledge but everyone knocks anything I say
It's all good man, just relax. There is no competition here. Knowledge is knowledge. If you've been looking to join the forum for a while then it is about time! You just gotta remember, we've had a lot of these conversations before. we get jaded. This forum has people that have significant knowledge in many different areas. For instance, I have no idea how to can or grow veggies. However, I know the AR-15 really well. Its select fire big brother has been issued to me for years and I have built several. There are a LOT of vets here. A lot of people know the weapon system as well who never served are here too.

Now that being said there are always new people who are not aware of all the details regarding the platform and a DPMS looks just like a BCM yet the price difference is huge and chances are most average gun guys have at least heard of DPMS but not BCM. While everybody into the platform knows DPMS isn't so hot and BCM is top of the line.
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Old 09-24-2013, 09:49 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Unobtanium View Post
More additions! 7075 is the alloy you are looking for. You can break the BCG into so much minutia it's amazing...

Grade 8 gas-key bolts
Tool-steel gas-key, chrome-lined
Properly staked
etc.etc.etc.


...really, though, what I find easier is to simply buy a quality item from a quality company and not MMQB it too much>
Centurion
BCM
Daniel Defense
Colt

All have BCG's which are G2G, as do others.

However...Now Colt is shipping M4's with H2 buffers in them, as I understand it. HPT testing has been shown to reduce bolt-life while providing negligible benefit in weeding out bad bolts. Free-float rails have been shown to increase bolt life, so on and so forth. The M4 platform is evolving.
Whoa, you commented about bolts without talking about Colt's golden spring! LMT and Spikes are also gtg from experience. I will be getting a bcg from PSA soon and it being their premium version should be gtg but I will tear it apart and get a first hand look soon. I am kind of vetting PSA right now. I know people swear by them, but I've gotten picky these days. Before shooting new toys I try to compare the bits and pieces against my known quantities first. I compare bcgs, feed ramps, etc.
Old 09-24-2013, 09:55 PM
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Default Bcm oh yeah

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Whoa, you commented about bolts without talking about Colt's golden spring! LMT and Spikes are also gtg from experience. I will be getting a bcg from PSA soon and it being their premium version should be gtg but I will tear it apart and get a first hand look soon. I am kind of vetting PSA right now. I know people swear by them, but I've gotten picky these days. Before shooting new toys I try to compare the bits and pieces against my known quantities first. I compare bcgs, feed ramps, etc.
Ew bcm is top tier **** they do they're **** right so does Daniela defense to they seem to really care about they're product being very dependablely made and etc! Lmt has a good rep and I've heard spikes tactical is top notch quality for a affordable price ( low cost and high value ) colt of course is grade a too ! I'm want g colt or bcm or dd for my go to even spikes would be fine lmt bent my last choice but deff still good
Old 09-25-2013, 01:08 AM
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Originally Posted by Andrew Jackson View Post
Whoa, you commented about bolts without talking about Colt's golden spring! LMT and Spikes are also gtg from experience. I will be getting a bcg from PSA soon and it being their premium version should be gtg but I will tear it apart and get a first hand look soon. I am kind of vetting PSA right now. I know people swear by them, but I've gotten picky these days. Before shooting new toys I try to compare the bits and pieces against my known quantities first. I compare bcgs, feed ramps, etc.
PSA is an assembler. Most of their stuff is .mil contract over-run, and since they don't "assemble" a BCG, there is no way for the product to be degraded. It should be good to go.
Old 09-25-2013, 04:00 AM
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I don't understand the OP and what it means?

MPI ?
Shot peeked?
FSB?

Seems you might also need:

Dispersion Acceptance criteria


Definition on targeting procedures and acceptance target description/dimensions


Ammunition acceptance requirement and distance to screen separation

Endurance ammunition construction




Dispersion failure requirement


MRBF requirements


Striker indent definition and how conducted

Indent centrality requirements


QPL of manufacturers of sub assemblies

First article inspection/acceptance documentation detailing all procedures.

MIL STD 105 inspection reference

Safety cert

Interchangability methodology

Decibel measurement procedure and mic locations.

Flash signature recording.

Chemical compatability acceptance

Port Window Envelope Pressures of certified munitions

Certification of test personnel

Low Temp/Hi Temp/Dust/Mud/Vibration/salf fog/ water spray/humidity /unlubricated/ procedures.

definition of firing schedule and cooling conditions

maintenance schedule definition

malfunction and test condition designations

fire control evaluation 100 thru 800 meters

certification of accuracy shooters

trigger pull requirements min/max

striker protrusion min/max

headspace min/max

drop test attitudes

definition of cook off test methodology and instrumentation

Wow having done all the above just wears me out thinking about it. Just imagine what a dirty lousy job it was to fire up to 10,000 rounds a day and never overheat a barrel then having to sit down and write a report of between 150 and 400 pages that no one will ever read.
Old 09-25-2013, 04:07 AM
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I don't understand the OP and what it means?

MPI ?
Shot peeked?
FSB?

Seems you might also need:

Dispersion Acceptance criteria


Definition on targeting procedures and acceptance target description/dimensions


Ammunition acceptance requirement and distance to screen separation

Endurance ammunition construction




Dispersion failure requirement


MRBF requirements


Striker indent definition and how conducted

Indent centrality requirements


QPL of manufacturers of sub assemblies

First article inspection/acceptance documentation detailing all procedures.

MIL STD 105 inspection reference

Safety cert

Interchangability methodology

Decibel measurement procedure and mic locations.

Flash signature recording.

Chemical compatability acceptance

Port Window Envelope Pressures of certified munitions

Certification of test personnel

Low Temp/Hi Temp/Dust/Mud/Vibration/salf fog/ water spray/humidity /unlubricated/ procedures.

definition of firing schedule and cooling conditions

maintenance schedule definition

malfunction and test condition designations

fire control evaluation 100 thru 800 meters

trigger pull requirements min/max

striker protrustion min/max

headspace min/max

drop test attitudes
Or just do as I said and buy from a company that produces known quality gear and let THEM worry about all that stuff

You don't know if your bolt was shot-peened or MPI or HPT. You just take the word/laser engraving or whatever of the company for it. So really, all that crap is meaningless if you cannot trust that the company bought good batches of proper parts, or made them, or if they are just selling you junk with pretty writing. You have to trust the company at some point, and that point comes sooner rather than later, because knowing all the fancy terms and words and what to look for is only useful in selecting the right company to buy from, and they are pretty well-known already. A complete ignoramus can get a GREAT! rifle if they just keep in mind the companies that make them, and never once learn what MPI means. Yet end up with a rifle as good as any ever made. Or you can become a savant and dissect the TDP (if you could get it)...and be no better off than the "ignorant" who took solid advice and bought from a quality company.
Old 09-25-2013, 08:19 AM
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Unobtanium, Very good point, the TDP is the ultimate prize but there is another point to be made.

I have a friend who was the procurement contracting officer at RIA for spare parts for the M16 family of weapons and he tells me that 95%of the parts floating around out there will not meet the TDP.

Though we think the gov't is stupid and the old saying "close enough for gov't work" is the rule it is not quite that easy.

That is where first article article acceptance snags most as the parts are disassembled and run through an inspection series that would make Lois Learner (IRS fame) turn green with envy as they will measure, X ray, dissect, metallurgically anaylize every part.

If it fails guess what, all the parts are rejected. DCAS can walk into a plant and go to the ship point and pull a parts from various runs. Submit them to RIA and if they fail all the parts on the dock are considered bad and rejected.

Now boys and girls the big question is "WHAT HAPPENS TO THOSE PARTS THAT FAIL?" After all they look like mil spec, the feel like mil spec, they seem to work like mil spec and the vendor tells you they were made to milspec but read carefully here boys and girls, they never seem to say they meet milspec and the TDP do they? To meet milspec they have to comply to TDP.

Does anyone know the milspec they are supposed meet? I will give you the first part, can anyone tell us the X numbers that are not there? MIL-W-1XXXX.

It is one thing to say they are made to milspec and another when you run up on this:

" parts shall
conform to the materials and construction requirements specified
herein, on Drawing 9XXXX00 and drawings applicable thereto, and
be in accordance with the applicable materials and construction
provisions of MIL-W-1XXXX"

That spec references a number of other specs.

I can only say with reasonble certainty that some of the parts in my Colt HBAR
might actually conform and my other ARs I am just at the mercy of the same system you are.

The difference is I know that most of the parts in my others won't meet and I make no claim that they do and like the rest of us we just hope they don't fail should we need them. Face it folks there is only one requirement for the industry and that is we give them our money.

That is why I would most likely not choose one as a survival rifle because the parts won't survive proper compliance inspections. Think of it this way, if they met the requirements the gov't has them. If they didn't, wonder who has them now?

There are however parts that are available that I have a very high degree of confidence in made for the AR family that would hold up better than "chrome" and that is http://www.superiorbarrels.com/

I won't recommend anything to anyone I would not own and have confidence in and I can say I own and use these.


Folks there is only one system available to us that I would trust in a survival application.
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Old 09-25-2013, 08:43 AM
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Unobtanium, Very good point, the TDP is the ultimate prize but there is another point to be made.

I have a friend who was the procurement contracting officer at RIA for spare parts for the M16 family of weapons and he tells me that 95%of the parts floating around out there will not meet the TDP.

Though we think the gov't is stupid and the old saying "close enough for gov't work" is the rule it is not quite that easy.

That is where first article article acceptance snags most as the parts are disassembled and run through an inspection series that would make Lois Learner (IRS fame) turn green with envy as they will measure, X ray, dissect, metallurgically anaylize every part.

If it fails guess what, all the parts are rejected. DCAS can walk into a plant and go to the ship point and pull a parts from various runs. Submit them to RIA and if they fail all the parts on the dock are considered bad and rejected.

Now boys and girls the big question is "WHAT HAPPENS TO THOSE PARTS THAT FAIL?" After all they look like mil spec, the feel like mil spec, they seem to work like mil spec and the vendor tells you they were made to milspec but read carefully here boys and girls, they never seem to say they meet milspec and the TDP do they? To meet milspec they have to comply to TDP.

Does anyone know the milspec they are supposed meet? I will give you the first part, can anyone tell us the X numbers that are not there? MIL-W-1XXXX.

It is one thing to say they are made to milspec and another when you run up on this:

" parts shall
conform to the materials and construction requirements specified
herein, on Drawing 9XXXX00 and drawings applicable thereto, and
be in accordance with the applicable materials and construction
provisions of MIL-W-1XXXX"

That spec references a number of other specs.

I can only say with reasonble certainty that some of the parts in my Colt HBAR
might actually conform and my other ARs I am just at the mercy of the same system you are.

The difference is I know that most of the parts in my others won't meet and I make no claim that they do and like the rest of us we just hope they don't fail should we need them. Face it folks there is only one requirement for the industry and that is we give them our money.

That is why I would most likely not choose one as a survival rifle because the parts won't survive proper compliance inspections. Think of it this way, if they met the requirements the gov't has them. If they didn't, wonder who has them now?

There are however parts that are available that I have a very high degree of confidence in made for the AR family that would hold up better than "chrome" and that is http://www.superiorbarrels.com/

I won't recommend anything to anyone I would not own and have confidence in and I can say I own and use these.


Folks there is only one system available to us that I would trust in a survival application.
While a lot of items may not TECHNICALLY meet EVERY aspect of mil-spec, as you note, the one's that matter are very well met by the top-end companies making M4's. Many times, they exceed the performance aspect of mil-spec. This is also where it comes into play that you select a quality company. Daniel Defense and Colt, for two examples. You can look around and find TONS of those weapons with thousands upon thousands of rounds through them performing well.

Further...you say that these inspections are batch-inspections. Yes, they are. What if they grab an in-spec part and it passes but 10% of those parts are NOT in spec? Shipment still goes to the troops. You bet it does. Works fine. Just as fine as if they grabbed that part of the 10%, tested it, failed it, and 90% mil-spec parts went to us civilians...

Please also consider...the KAC rifles that the military is using...KAC does not have the TDP. The LaRue rifles oversease...LaRue does not have the TDP (they also don't even TRY to meet it, un-pinned gas-blocks, etc.). The LMT uppers on MK18's...LMT does not have the TDP...lots and lots and lots of others, but that's just off the top of my head. Oh, and what about the HK416? The SCAR? Those don't even HAVE TDP's, per se, just "company spec's" like every M4 out there, albeit, their performance has been evaluated, given said specs. Who cares if the military evaluates it, or a ton of 3-gunners and troops and civilians stateside? They are the one's, after-all, who gave us so much of what is NOW being issued as "mil-spec".
Old 09-25-2013, 11:47 AM
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When I was a Test Director at Aberdeen Proving Ground we had turrets coming in for M1s on flat cars. I had occasion to go to the plate range one day and they were testing them so inquiring minds want to know so I asked how it was conducted.

At the Detroit Tank plant there is a field of tank turrets and all are serial numbered.

They put all the serial numbers in a hat and two are drawn, they go out and load those two on the flat car and ship them to Aberdeen where they are shot with a special 105 "Magnum" for lack of a better description. If one is penetrated a nasty gram gets sent to Detroit and the turrets lower than first number are destroyed. If both turrets fail all in between are destroyed. If the high number fails they ask for another turret with higher number to be shipped for testing.

When I left there had been no failures and there was a pile of 105 Magnums (my terminology) that would fill a 18 wheeler. Basically the magnum was a 5" 50 case necked down and a 105 was loaded into it to get to the velocity window they wanted.

I also fulfilled the duty of COTR on a weapon contract and discovered the weapons were improperly proofed and all 1200 went back for the series. I was at the vendor plant to witness it.

While with the Army Sm Cal Lab in Product Engineering I was on a engineering team that went to a vendor plant as the magazines they had delivered were failing in high numbers. What they made prior to magazines was GI belt buckles. Thats kind of like your surgeon's qualifications was he had first aid course in Boy Scouts.

Addendum: Had to leave to go to town there so I will continue. Also while at the plant that improperly proofed the 1200 weapons I discovered they were improperly subjected to MPI. Subsequently I learned the specification (I wrote) had been violated as I had a requirement that the design not exhibit a design flaw. About six months into the contract I found there were problems and learned the company could not determine the cause and a friend of mine from the weapons business was contracted to find out what the problem was and it took him six months and 30,000 rounds but he did. It was indeed a design flaw. There was a nationwide recall on all those weapons and they were reworked. When they were reworked I was at the factory as the COTR and during a proof series I saw 34 misfires in 1200 rounds and I took the misfires with me as I recoginized a serious condition.

Basically the allowable misfire rate on US ammunition is 1 in a million rounds. Thusly 34 in 1200 is a gross indication of a serious problem. I sent the rounds to the primer engineering section of Picatinny Arsenal who did a study and determined the primers were fine and that the weapons firing pin indents hitting off center were the problem (as I suspected). To make a long story short all those were flushed from the our inventory and sold to dealers who passed them on to the public.

There was a spare parts contract for M14 match barrels and when they got to RIA for first article delivery they were subjected to the process I described above and while they looked fine and gaged just fine a number were too soft. It seems that some of the employees took the good barrels home with them had replaced the steel on the material racks with cold rolled steel which would have blown up quickly.

Then there was a unnanounced inspection by one of our engineering types to a vendor plant. He walked in and went to the loading dock and opened boxes and started running the gage series on them and found they did not meet. He went to the plant manager and told him there was a problem with his stuff, the plant manager pulled out a 357 mag, laid it on the desk and told our guy there was no problem in his plant or with what he was making. Our guy left and the FBI walked in the next day and it wasn't for coffee and donuts.

Historically when a parts contract was let the vendor had to inform product engineering (PE) when the first production would start and I mean the exact day. The guy from PE went to the plant and stayed there gaging everything until he was satisified the parts met the drawings and he left. At any time during the contract our guy could walk into the plant and go to the dock and open boxes and run the gage series. If they failed everything on the dock was trash and everything in production was trash and he stayed there till the parts passed gaging and then he left.

At the end of the contract he would go back and make sure the final production was "in spec". In those days prior to I guess it was 65 we got good parts every time. Then comes SOD Robert McNamara and he makes the decision that he is sure the contractors can do their own inspections and that too much travel money was wasted on making sure we had good parts for our troops and he stopped the gage inspections by PE. That was before my time and I can tell all that I never heard a kind word said about McNamara as the guys that trained me were there since the early 50s.

I fully realize that 99.9% of the folks on forums don't have a clue about what goes on in industry and a big name company must be doing good as they have a great reputation etc etc. Unfortunately these companies hire anyone off the street to do this or that. For instance I was walking around a vendor plant who was running M16 parts and I stopped to watch this operation a worker was doing. I knew what he was making so I asked him what he was making and he said, " I don't know." I hate to tell yawl this but when you see some of these folks making parts you know you wouldn't want them packing your parachute.

I told one vendor how a friend of mine who worked in another plant had drug tests of applicants and for every 100 applications they gave out they only got six filled out and returned. On the application in large letters was the notice that upon delivery of application a drug test would be administered. That vendor was shocked and they also started drug testing.

On one occasion I was detailed to the US Border Patrol when they got a large load of bad guns. The USBP boys were not happy and they requested my agency to lend me to them. This was on the incident when the factory guys took 34 guns back as beyond rebuild that had never been fired.

I was notified the vendor wanted a exit interview with USBP folks and I was asked to sit in as they admitted they would not know when they were being lied to.( yes folks gun vendors are like the used car salesmen) I asked if I could ask questions and I told them the vendor reps knew I did not work for USBP and I was told if they had any objections they would be quickly told that anything I asked should be considered as coming straight from the USBP and required an answer.

We went to the meeting and I had prepped the BP guys with questions to ask. It was a real interesting event. We had six BP command personnel the lowest ranking was a Captain and went all the way to Colonels and it started and the questions were asked and I sat back and let them (vendor reps) sling it against the wall. I then gave the nod to the last guy to ask his question which was how long there guns would last on a 10,000 round endurance run and the vendor reps (one was chief of QA) started to hem and haw and you would have thought he was giving birth to a water melon that had not been cut up. Finally he said 3000 rounds and I looked at the USBP command personnel and every last one was sitting there with their mouths wide open and bug eyed. This was THE vendor they had loved and adored for a thousand years with the marvelous reputation. Kind of like finding out your preacher is a child molester.

Then the vendor thought they had it all packed up against the barn wall and vendor QA manager asked if there were any more questions. I asked what the failure was that shut their guns down at 3000 rounds and it seemed he was in labor trying to give birth to the large water melon again. He said, "the barrels crack". I looked at the BP command again, mouths open, bug eyed etc.

I asked my second question of "what do you mean crack?" That watermelon it seemed had turned side ways and he was clearly showing signs of distress/desparation and he replied asking me what I meant by crack and I said, "Are you talking loss of dispersion, loss of velocity or catastrophic failure." They knew then the jig was up and they looked at their watch and said they were late for their flight and left.

Before they got to the airport I had a meeting with the Chief of INS and told him I was sending a confirmation of information understood request to the vendor to confirm his statements made in the meeting and he said run with it so before the vendor reps got on their plane the letter was in the PO return receipt. I have the receipt where the letter was received and there was never a response. Well actually there was a response. The vendors vice president of marketing and federal sales rep went to see my agency head in DC and tried to get me fired giving illusions that it seemed, it appeared, a little bird told us, that XXXX was in bed with their rival vendor. I was at the meeting and never got to say a word but it was great drama. My agency head told them fine and they were introduced to the head of our Internal Affairs and they left.

The next morning I saw the IA guy and asked if he wanted me to explain anything and he said "NO.........would you like to know how it went?" I said yes and he invited me into his office and he said they sat there for 30 minutes giving the it appears, we think, a little bird said........................ and when they wound down the IA Chief introduced them to the IA Agent sitting behind them and told them they would now be escorted to his office and they would give the same account again and sign a sworm affadavit what they said was true. He said it was amazing, the VP of marketing jumped up and said I was a great guy, there was not problem and they left quickly.

Bottom line guys I fully realize there are those that feel very strongly about names and reputations but my background has taught me one thing when it comes to the gun business. You can only trust what you can verify.

For instance I know one vendor that made automatic garage door openers before they got in gun business.


I also explained to BP personnel that they were going to be stuck with the guns because they bought them to a description spec (cylinder had to rotate a certain way, had to be opened in a specific way, be manufactured by a specific method, etc etc and not a performance spec that required testing to qualify their weapons at the time the bid was submitted. They understood how they had be (how shall I put this) been the victim of a sexual act and they it would never happen again and asked me to write the spec and I did. For openers it required 10,000 rounds of full performance ammo just as would be carried and not a bunch of surplus import ammo.

We ran two 10,000 round tests on two of the great name company guns and had their guns go down in 500 rounds, they were rebuilt and went down again and rebuilt at 1000 rounds. At 1500 rounds they were beyond rebuild. In short the 3000 figure was a lie.

The other company submitted theirs and they went 10,000 rounds just fine and USBP bought 5000 first order. At that time I owned about 15 of the "great name guns", I dumped all but four and would dump two of them now if I could and I have never purchased another gun from the great name company.

I can't remember how to find it but I was directed to a test portrayed as the mother of all bad to the bone tests for AR rifles about a year ago which basically amounted to a bunch of good ole boys burning up a bunch of barrels over a two or three day period and their annointing/blessing one and it was portrayed as the test of all tests. It's one thing to test for a gun company and quite another to be subjected to a Aberdeen Proving Ground Technical Feasibility Test conducted by Certified Test Directors. I have the certification in my 201 file and you don't automatically get it walking in the door, some folks take several years to get certified based on their knowledge, skills etc and I suspect there is still less than a thousand ever certified. I got mine in 80s was in the 600s then and the PG has been there since 1917.

A new set of Test Operation Procedures were established about 60 years ago which means all shoulder fired weapons are submitted to the exact same testing year after year after year so we are talking apples and apples, not apples and watermelons. The weapons are submitted to the same firing schedule and if a hot schedule is desired it will be run as a sub test of the standard test and it will be taken to destruction quickly fired with very enhanced protective equipment. Just think about it, when you are pouring the ammo down the bore the chances are you will get one through the side of the barrel and we sure didn't want to lose a hand/fingers etc.

Bottom line guys, I have nothing to sell, I will not recommend anything I am not sure of which generally means I own one.
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