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Old 09-10-2013, 05:56 PM
bobbydeadup bobbydeadup is offline
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Default do you need to put your batteries in a faraday cage?



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do you need to put your AA/AAA or car batteries inside a faraday cage?
Old 09-10-2013, 07:09 PM
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Not if they aren't connected to anything.

Just my opinion.
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Old 09-10-2013, 07:52 PM
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Not if they aren't connected to anything.

Just my opinion.
What if for instance your diesal truck car batteries?
Old 09-10-2013, 09:35 PM
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If installed in the truck they should still be all right. Unless there is an inordinate amount of wiring going to them, other than the starting cables and main power cable. There is some debate about this, so be aware.

Just my opinion.
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Old 09-10-2013, 09:42 PM
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I would say no. There isn't any semi-conductor material in those type batteries that could get damaged. Laptop batteries maybe a different story.
Old 09-10-2013, 11:49 PM
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Batteries will be unaffected by any type of EMP. Your alternator diodes may be burned out if it was an HEMP and depending on too many things to calculate your automotive coil may be shorted out. If you have a computer in your car and the EMP is from an HEMP (high altitude nuclear EMP) then the computer will likely be toast along with all the other semiconductors in your car. AT strengths of 1million volts per meter that equates to 1000 volts per millimeter.... not many products can handle that kind of spike.
Old 09-11-2013, 10:40 AM
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Originally Posted by Paul1950 View Post
Batteries will be unaffected by any type of EMP. Your alternator diodes may be burned out if it was an HEMP and depending on too many things to calculate your automotive coil may be shorted out. If you have a computer in your car and the EMP is from an HEMP (high altitude nuclear EMP) then the computer will likely be toast along with all the other semiconductors in your car. AT strengths of 1million volts per meter that equates to 1000 volts per millimeter.... not many products can handle that kind of spike.
So then what good are the batteries???
Old 09-11-2013, 11:03 AM
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AT strengths of 1million volts per meter that equates to 1000 volts per millimeter.... not many products can handle that kind of spike.
Your 1000 Volts per millimeter makes no sense without all parameters put into the equation. At ground level you will never exceed 50,000 Volts/M due to attenuation, (Permittivity and Permeability).

Emax is determined by Frequency, Field Stregnth, and Surface Area.

If you want to know how to calculate Emax, start with this equation:
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Old 09-11-2013, 11:13 AM
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Your 1000 Volts per millimeter makes no sense without all parameters put into the equation. At ground level you will never exceed 50,000 Volts/M due to attenuation, (Permittivity and Permeability).

If you want to know how to calculate Emax, start with this equation:
Over my head.

I want to know if there is a method to protect my solar controller, http://www.outbackpower.com/index.ph...ategory_id=438 , its grounded. If I bought an extra (solar controller) and triple wrapped it in aluminim and plastic bags, as another survivalist has suggested, will this work?

What am I missing?
Old 09-11-2013, 11:25 AM
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Over my head.

I want to know if there is a method to protect my solar controller, http://www.outbackpower.com/index.ph...ategory_id=438 , its grounded. If I bought an extra (solar controller) and triple wrapped it in aluminim and plastic bags, as another survivalist has suggested, will this work?

What am I missing?
Your extra one wrapped in alternating layers is a good idea.

Correct me if I make wrong assumptions on the one you have hooked up.

It is between your solar panels and battery, correct?

Unless there is hundreds of yards of wire/panels/etc, dont worry about CME.

Nuke EMP is another issue, shielding the unit and attached wires will help. It is grounded because instructions told you so? for safety? Is anything else grounded?
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Old 09-11-2013, 03:30 PM
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If installed in the truck they should still be all right. Unless there is an inordinate amount of wiring going to them, other than the starting cables and main power cable. There is some debate about this, so be aware.

Just my opinion.
It has a winch atached to it?
Old 09-11-2013, 05:44 PM
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Your extra one wrapped in alternating layers is a good idea.

Correct me if I make wrong assumptions on the one you have hooked up.

It is between your solar panels and battery, correct?

Unless there is hundreds of yards of wire/panels/etc, dont worry about CME.

Nuke EMP is another issue, shielding the unit and attached wires will help. It is grounded because instructions told you so? for safety? Is anything else grounded?
An electrician hooked it up for me, about three feet from the controller to a metal water line coming into the house. This is the only ground that he hooked up. I am not sure why he did it though. Then the controller is about 5 feet from the controller, no ground.

Do you think alternating layers of aluminun over the top of the controller would help?
Old 09-11-2013, 06:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Robot View Post
Your 1000 Volts per millimeter makes no sense without all parameters put into the equation. At ground level you will never exceed 50,000 Volts/M due to attenuation, (Permittivity and Permeability).

Emax is determined by Frequency, Field Stregnth, and Surface Area.

If you want to know how to calculate Emax, start with this equation:

Your calculation works fine for a sine wave propagation but has nothing to do with a cascade event. If what you are saying were true then that 5 million volt bolt of lighting would never hit the ground - and that isn't a good example of the electron cascade either.

Lets see if I can explain this. When the nuclear device is detonated at high altitude the atmosphere is less dense than it is on the ground. The gamma emissions knock electrons free of their atoms and push them away from the blast (down). As the gamma emissions move further through the atmosphere (and the high energy electrons with them) more and more electrons are pushed toward the ground and outward from "ground zero".
All these electrons are moving at very high speeds and pushing more and more of them ahead of them. Those electrons are what causes the huge voltage pulse that I am talking about when I talk about the E1 pulse. It in no way resembles an RMS wave.That E1 pulse is so large that it saturates its environment (including water and ground) and moves rapidly while "slowly" losing electrons along the way. The electrons have to find stability - they have to be captured in order for the pulse to stop. That power (voltage and amperage) will penetrate over 12 feet into the ground as do the E2 and E3 pulses as demonstrated in the Russian HEMP where underground power transmission lines were fused 12 feet below the surface in standard conduit containment.

The cascade does not follow the rules associated with radio emissions that are sine wave configurations because it is a cascade event and not a cyclical wave.

I hope that makes it easier to understand and not just a source of confusion.
Old 09-11-2013, 06:16 PM
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So then what good are the batteries???

Sevenmmm, The battery is not an electrical device. It is a chemical device that converts chemical energy into electrical energy and one in which the cycle is reversible under the proper conditions. If you connect a 12 volt battery to 110 VAC what will the battery do? Not much more than hum at 60 Hz. It won't charge or discharge. It won't burn up or short out. No work is being carried out to change the chemical process. The same it true with the very fast E1 pulse. It happens too fast for the chemicals to respond. It remains unaffected. The semiconductors are purely electronic and static devices and the fast pulse of the E1 pulse does affect them.

The alternator diodes are replaceable and you should keep a spare set in a protected box for just that purpose. Your batteries will still turn your starter motor or still supply power for the lights and such you just have to have a way to recharge them. Replacing the diodes in an alternator is not difficult but it will take a little time and some soldering.
Old 09-11-2013, 06:25 PM
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Sevenmmm,
Your photo voltaic system is doomed in the event of a high altitude blast. The E1 pulse will fry every diode (solar cell) in your panels. If the controller is connected to a ground then the electronics in it will also likely be fried no matter how many layers of insulation and aluminum you have it wrapped in because it has a direct path from the ground to the device. The water pipe is your grounding rod.

In a solar event if you disconnect it from the grid you are not likely to have any problems with it.

confused? I get that way myself too.
Old 09-11-2013, 06:36 PM
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Over my head.

I want to know if there is a method to protect my solar controller, http://www.outbackpower.com/index.ph...ategory_id=438 , its grounded. If I bought an extra (solar controller) and triple wrapped it in aluminim and plastic bags, as another survivalist has suggested, will this work?

What am I missing?

If you have a spare unit in a protected box then it will be fine but your solar panels are just a big array of diodes and they will be wiped out in an E1 pulse. You could store them in a protected box until after the SHTF and then put them up but you get no advantage now. An AC wind turbine is likely to survive the E1 pulse and as long as you don't have a very long run from the turbine to the panel it should weather the E2 and E3 pulses as well. (providing it is not connected to the grid when the pulses hit)
Old 09-11-2013, 07:37 PM
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after a brief search on the web, most of the answers assume that since there is no circuitry in batteries they should be alright. ??????

i think that batteries should be able to bear the shock of a EMP. but then again, would they be able to stand up to a lightening bolt?

http://www.survivalistboards.com/showthread.php?t=60982
Old 09-11-2013, 08:20 PM
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The lightning bolt and EMP are two very different things. The EMP happens so fast that the battery is not affected. The lightning bolt happens over a lot longer period of time and will burn a battery or cause it to explode. Just like you standing up against a metal plate. If you and the plate are struck by an EMP you won't even notice it - a complete non-event. But if you are hit by a lightning bolt, well I am sure you will notice it and it might burn your insides and leave only small exit burns at your feet or back where you were leaning up against the wall. A quick run to the hospital would be in order to repair any internal burns or organ damage before necrosis set in.
Old 09-11-2013, 11:51 PM
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Over my head.

I want to know if there is a method to protect my solar controller, http://www.outbackpower.com/index.ph...ategory_id=438 , its grounded.
What am I missing?
The easiest, and, of course, the most expensive, way to protect a PV solar power system is to have all the electrical/electronic components mounted together in a small shed or weather enclosure, under the solar panels, entirely enclosed in a faraday cage made of two layers of 20 openings per inch copper mesh. That includes a well grounded mesh base, mesh walls, and mesh over the panels, with every joint of the mesh bonded together securely and electrically.

To get the same amount of electric production as unprotected panel, you would need to add the same percentage of panels as the percentage of light you lose through the mesh.

Is it practical for anything but small systems? Probably not. Can it be done on large systems? Yes. If you have enough money, and a way to prevent someone coming in to strip all that copper out for scrap.

http://www.twpinc.com/wire-mesh/TWPC...0X020C0160W36T

Just my opinion.


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It has a winch atached to it?
Probably very short leads. It shouldn't be a factor.

Just my opinion.
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Old 09-12-2013, 05:40 AM
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All these electrons are moving at very high speeds and pushing more and more of them ahead of them. Those electrons are what causes the huge voltage pulse that I am talking about when I talk about the E1 pulse. It in no way resembles an RMS wave.That E1 pulse is so large that it saturates its environment (including water and ground) and moves rapidly while "slowly" losing electrons along the way. The electrons have to find stability - they have to be captured in order for the pulse to stop. That power (voltage and amperage) will penetrate over 12 feet into the ground as do the E2 and E3 pulses as demonstrated in the Russian HEMP where underground power transmission lines were fused 12 feet below the surface in standard conduit containment.
The cascade does not follow the rules associated with radio emissions that are sine wave configurations because it is a cascade event and not a cyclical wave.

I hope that makes it easier to understand and not just a source of confusion.
"cosmic rays can trigger lightning bolts. There is a large electric potential between the Earth's surface and the ionosphere, which is at high altitude and hence low pressure air. This is similar to conditions in a Geiger-Muller tube, where you have low pressure gas and a strong electric field. Any cosmic ray can potentially set off an electron avalanche, which in the absence of a quenching agent (Geiger-Muller tubes include some inert gases like helium, neon or argon which have filled outer-shells of electrons, in order to limit the size of the electron avalanche and thus quench each small discharge). Since there is little quenching gas in the Earth's atmosphere, you get major lightning bolts develop.

One pretty impressive lightning situation which demonstrates the connection between ionizing radiation and lightning, was lightning filmed around the periphery of the fireball from the "Mike" nuclear test on 1 Nov. 1952 at Eniwetok. The yield was 10.4 Mt, and the gamma rays set off at least five lightning flashes in the ionized air just around the fireball. All the lightning bolts were essentially vertical, from the scud cloud just above the fireball down to the lagoon water. This confirms that nuclear radiation, via causing ionization in the atmosphere, definitely can trigger a shorting of the natural vertical electric potential gradient in the atmosphere, resulting in a bolt of lightning"

http://ed-thelen.org/EMP-ElectroMagneticPulse.html


So, if your cage gets hit by "lightning", Nuke induced or not, you may be in trouble. Your cages chance of being hit by lightning should be very small, while the RF component will certainly be there, magnetude will be the only question.

I think the far more likely and usually prepared for danger is the RF/EMP "induced" danger, rather than direct discharge. Chances of being hit by lightning, Nuke induced or not, should be the less likely danger here.

Last edited by Robot; 09-12-2013 at 12:08 PM.. Reason: Updated-multiple times
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