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Old 08-01-2013, 08:13 AM
gsgs gsgs is offline
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it's not so easy to get antivirals, you need a prescription in most countries
and most doctors are reluctant to write one for pandemic preparedness.

Now, would it be OK and legal and supported by the government,
if we buy antiviral-options ?

A company could sign to the plan below and re-sell the rights to individuals
(for an additional fee, of course)

The plan below is not so attractive for companies, as the prices
are down now, but are for individuals who have the trouble
with prescriptions.

I never figured out what the government really thinks about this,
whether they support individuals buy antivirals for pandemic preparedness
or are trying to prevent+block it.

The commonly quoted reason for prescriptions would fail for such
a preparedness, so why is it still required ?

Add antibiotics to the list, most people die from pneumonia
in a severe pandemic.


--------------------------------------------------------------------

http://www.cidrap.umn.edu/news-persp...al-stockpiling
...
The second option—the reservation plan—is intended to reduce employers'
up-front expenditure and allow them to lock in a price for future zanamivir
purchases, Glaxo said in its press release. An annual fee of $6 per unit reserves
and stores the drug for the life of the contract, which can span up to 10 years
and can be canceled without additional cost. Companies will receive their orders
when they request them or when the World Health Organization (WHO) raises its
pandemic alert level to stage 4 (sustained human-to-human transmission).
Glaxo's reservation plan is similar to Roche's employer Tamiflu stockpiling plan.
At $6 per treatment course, Roche's annual fee is the same as Glaxo's.
Like the preferred pricing plan, the minimum order for the reservation plan is 500 units,
McLaughlin said. Both of the plans, for now, are available only to US-based businesses, he said.


http://www.cidrap.umn.edu/news-persp...al-stockpiling
For an annual fee, companies can secure a supply of Tamiflu, which will be stored,
secured, rotated, and kept current by Roche. If and when the company requests
its supply, Roche will guarantee delivery within 48 hours in most instances.
George Abercrombie, chief executive officer and president of Hoffman-La Roche,
Inc., told reporters that more than 300 US businesses have already stockpiled
Tamiflu, but hundreds more have made inquiries and are seeking more flexible options.
...HHS officials were on hand to praise Roche's new program
The annual fee for the program is $6 per 10-tablet treatment course, or roughly
one-sixth
the purchase cost. The minimum order is 2,500 courses
Once companies request their order, they pay the wholesale cost for it.
only available to US employers
Abercrombie said Roche is rolling out the program first in the United States
and will later make it available to businesses in other countries. "Our intent
is to replicate it throughout the world," he told reporters.


------------------------------------------------

one problem is, how they would garantee the delivery in a severe pandemic.
The governments will likely make quickly new laws and seize it.
That's the reason why USA invested ~7B in 2005 for domestic vaccine
production : Bush didn't trust the Europeans would deliver US-vaccine
orders in a severe pandemic. (as I understood)

---------------------------------------------------------

I'm also interested in a list, which 300 US-companies do have
antiviral stockpiles for their emplyees
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Old 08-01-2013, 11:44 AM
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I too find it interesting that 300 companies have stockpiles of antivirals.

I would love to have the right to my own personal stockpile of Antivirals. Unfortunately, my country (the US) has forgotten what freedom is, and has sacrificed it for "safety and security"... I can't purchase bulk antivirals for my family without a prescription. Elderberry will have to do for my family and hope it's a stave against pandemic virus, until we can get prescribed antivirals and/or a vaccine.

Like you, I wouldn't trust a company to hold my antivirals for me, During a pandemic, people get stupid... governments included. Aside from a governmental seizure, you run into issue of delivery companies stealing it, or bandits stealing it off trucks etc.

I would feel much more comfortable with it locked away in a mini fridge in my cellar. I'd love to have it next to my supply of antibiotics etc (that I don't have) that I could easily go to and administer as needed to my sick loved ones. For now, I am forced to rely on my doctors and pharmacies abilities to get me what I need when I need it, or to rely on homeopathic remedies to do the job. All while my pets get an ample supply of medicines they need, when they need them. Can a I get a supply of Tamiflu for my pets?
Old 08-01-2013, 12:40 PM
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While this process is being pursued, I think I will continue to stock up alternatives.

Just my opinion.
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Old 08-04-2013, 09:11 AM
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best flu-antiviral should be Laninamivir
(Daiichi Sankyo in Japan, Biota in Australia),
available in Japan as "Inavir"
not yet approved in USA by FDA or in Europe

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laninamivir
http://www.cidrap.umn.edu/news-persp...ountermeasures
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Old 08-04-2013, 09:26 AM
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Stuck using boneset and yarrow here. So far it has worked though so I'll keep using them during flu season.
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Old 08-04-2013, 10:31 AM
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Re: Novel antiviral agents: a medicinal plant perspective

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

influenza related:

in 1952 the Boots drug company at Nottingham, England, examined the action of 288 plants against influenza A virus in embryonated eggs. They found that 12 of them suppressed virus amplification (Chantrill et al. 1952).

A root extract of Potentilla arguta and a branch tip extract of Sambucus racemosa completely inhibited respiratory syncytial virus (RSV). An extract of Ipomopsis aggregata demonstrated good activity against parainfluenza virus type 3.

influenza A virus were susceptible to a liquid extract from Eleutherococcus senticosus roots.

influenza RNA was inhibited by a water-soluble extract of Sanicula europaea (L.) (Turan et al. 1996). In a later study of Karagoz et al. (1999) it was shown that an acidic fraction obtained from the crude extract of Sanicula europaea was the most active fraction in inhibiting human parainfluenza virus type 2 replication at noncytotoxic concentrations. By comparison, ethanol extraction abolished the antiviral activity. The plausible explanation is that the antiviral activity could 'disappear' during the course of fractionation.


An extract of the cactus plant Opuntia streptacantha inhibited intracellular DNA and RNA virus replication and inactivated extracellular virus, such as HSV, equine herpes virus, pseudorabies virus and influenza virus (Ahmad et al. 1996). The Bergenia ligulata, Nerium indicum and Holoptelia integrifolia plants exhibited considerable antiviral activities against influenza virus (RNA) and HSV (DNA) (Rajbhandari et al. 2001).


Strain-specific anti-influenza virus inhibitory activity, based on the reproduction of influenza viruses in tissue cultures, was reported for marine algae of the Bulgarian Black Sea coast (Serkedjieva et al. 2000).

The most pronounced in vitro selectivity of anti-influenza and anti-herpes type 1 and type 2 action were confirmed against polyphenolic complexes isolated from the Bulgarian medicinal plant Geranium sanguineum (L.) (Serkedjieva and Hay 1998; Serkedjieva and Ivancheva 1999).


In another study, five groups of biflavonoids (amentoflavone, agathisflavone, robustaflavone, rhusflavanone and succedaneflavanone) were isolated from medicinal plants of Rhus succedanea and Garcinia multiflora, and exhibited various antiviral effects against a number of viruses including respiratory viruses (influenza A,

A significant anti-influenza A and B activity was achieved by amentoflavone, robustaflavone and agathisflavone.


Recently, a new class of lignans isolated from Larrea tridentates, Rhinacanthus nasutus and Kadsura matsudai showed anti-HIV, anti-influenza and anti-hepatitis potencies,


Different kinds of anthraquinones from extracts of Rheum officinale, Aloe barbadensis (Aloe vera), Rhamnus frangula, Rhamnus purshianus, and Cassia angustifolia were found to be quite active against HSV-1 (Sydiskis et al. 1991). In contrast, anthraquinones were found inactive against varicella zoster virus, pseudorabies virus, influenza virus,

aloe emodin (the common aglycones which may exist as anthraquinones), prepared from aloin. It inactivated HSV-1, varicella zoster virus, pseudorabies virus, influenza virus in vitro,

dry Gingyo-san used in traditional antipyretic medicine for the treatment of the common cold and influenza virus infection has significantly reduced fever production and suppressed the rise in interleukin (IL)-1 alpha caused by influenza infection (Kurokawa et al. 1998b).

by influenza A virus (Badmaev and Nowakowski 2000). Of the 23 components tested, only one, Terminalia chebula, showed a significant protective effect when applied to the epithelial cells individually


Recently, a combined application of flowers of Verbascum thapsiforme (Scrophulariaceae) (Flos Verbasci infusion, FVI) and three amantadine derivatives resulted in a marked enhancement of the inhibitory effect of FVI on the reproduction of influenza virus (Serkedjieva 2000b).


------------------------------------------------------------------
these were (somehow) effective against influenza A:

Chantrill et al. 1952 12 out of 288 tested plants
root extract of Potentilla arguta
branch tip extract of Sambucus racemosa
extract of Ipomopsis aggregata
liquid extract from Eleutherococcus senticosus roots
water-soluble extract of Sanicula europaea (L.) (Turan et al. 1996)
acidic fraction obtained from the crude extract of Sanicula europaea
extract of the cactus plant Opuntia streptacantha
Bergenia ligulata, Nerium indicum and Holoptelia integrifolia plants
marine algae of the Bulgarian Black Sea coast (Serkedjieva et al. 2000).
Geranium sanguineum (L.) (Serkedjieva)
amentoflavone, robustaflavone and agathisflavone.
lignans isolated from Larrea tridentates, Rhinacanthus nasutus and Kadsura matsudai
Rhinacanthin E and rhinacanthin F
aloe emodin
dry Gingyo-san
Terminalia chebula
flowers of Verbascum thapsiforme (Scrophulariaceae)
(Flos Verbasci infusion, FVI) and three amantadine derivatives
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Old 08-04-2013, 10:34 AM
arleigh arleigh is offline
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My favorites are colloidial silver and cider vinigar .
The colloidial silver I make my self, and the vinigar is part of my food stores.
I a 62+ and do not use modern medicine.
Old 08-04-2013, 11:14 AM
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A combination of Eleutherococcus senticosus and Andrographis paniculata was found
effective for influenza infections. The combination formula, also known as Kan Jang®,
was studied in a pilot trial involving 540 adults with influenza.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
High Lactoferrin Whey Protein
Whey protein supplementation appears to enhance the immune system
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Interleukin-6 limits influenza-induced inflammation and protects against fatal lung
pathology.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Baicalein, Ethyl Acetate, and Chloroform Extracts of Scutellaria baicalensis Inhibit the
Neuraminidase Activity of Pandemic 2009 H1N1 and Seasonal Influenza A Viruses.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
good Anti-influenza virus activity of two extracts of the blackcurrant
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
----------------------------------------------------------------
Antiviral activity of Jinchai capsule
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Arbidol efficiently inhibits both H1N1 stains
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
A Plant Extract of Ribes nigrum folium Possesses Anti-Influenza Virus Activity In Vitro
and In Vivo by Preventing Virus Entry to Host Cells.
-------------------------------------------------
Gaseous nitric oxide reduces influenza infectivity in vitro.
-------------------------------------------------------------
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23658730
Curcumin
-------------------------------------------------------------
Methanolic extract of Capparis sinaica Veill
quercetin (1), isoquercetin (2) and rutin (3) for the first time from this species. The isolates showed
reduction in the virus titre by 68.13%, 79.66% and 73.22% inhibition at 1 ng/ml,
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23350191
ergoferon
---------------------------------------------------
amount of flavonoids in Berries linked to antiviral effects
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21912812
alkylglycerols, taken immediately before the peak of influenza, Alkyrol®500 per os, twice a day,
---------------------------------
70754,2013.01.15
antiviral function of NO
------------------------------------------------------------------
From a panel of 22 flavonoids, we identified six compounds (apigenin, baicalein,
biochanin A, kaempferol, luteolin, naringenin) that inhibited influenza A nucleoprotein
production in human lung epithelial (A549) cells infected with the highly pathogenic
avian influenza H5N1 virus strain A/Thailand/Kan-1/04 in non-toxic concentrations.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Methamphetamine reduces human influenza a virus replication.
---------------------------------------------------------------
AL18, an inhibitor of human cytomegalovirus DNA polymerase, was serendipitously found to
also block the interaction between the PB1 and PA polymerase subunits of influenza A virus.
Furthermore, AL18 effectively inhibited influenza A virus polymerase activity and the overall
replication of influenza A and B viruses. A molecular model to explain the binding of AL18 to
both cytomegalovirus and influenza targets is proposed. Thus, AL18 represents an interesting
lead for the development of new antivirals.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22908168
--------------------------------------
Dietary Supplementation with Lacto-Wolfberry Enhances the Immune Response and
Reduces Pathogenesis to Influenza Infection in Mice.
--------------------------------
Effects of polyphenol compounds on influenza A virus replication and definition of their
mechanism of action.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Oral administration of milk fermented with Lactococcus lactis subsp. cremoris
FC protects mice against influenza virus infection.
--------------------------------------------------------------------
bovine Lactoferrin C-lobe strongly binds to the HA(2) region of viral hemagglutinin,
precisely the highly conserved region containing the fusion peptide.
inhibited virus hemagglutination
-------------------------------------
antiviral activity of ASN2
single amino acid mutation at position 499 of the influenza virus PB1 protein that confers
resistance to ASN2,
---------------------------------------
TiO(2) photocatalysis could be used to inactivate the influenza virus.
------------------------------------
67025
In vitro anti-influenza virus and anti-inflammatory activities of theaflavin derivatives.
67002
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22516927
A non-nucleoside, 4-[(4-butylphenyl)amino]-2-methylene-4-oxo-butanoic acid (D282),
inhibited influenza A and B CPE by 50% at 6-31 µM.
Ribavirin at 14-44 µM . D282 and ribavirin inhibited virus yield by 90%
at 9.5±3.3 and 10.8±3.2 µM, respectively.
D282 (<100 mg/kg/day) failed to prevent death of mice infected with influenza.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Antiviral activity of crude extracts of Eugenia jambolana Lam. against H5N1
--------------------------------------------------------------
unlikely that seasonal variations in vitamin D levels principally determine the seasonality
of influenza in temperate regions.
-----------------------------------
EPs® 7630 (Umckaloabo®), an extract from Pelargonium sidoides roots,
exerts anti-influenza virus activity in vitro and in vivo.
------------------------------
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22026455
Our results do not support the hypothesis that high doses of vitamin D supplementation
will have a pronounced effect on influenza-like disease in populations not targeted for
high influenza risk.
--------------------------------------------------
IFITM3 restricts the morbidity and mortality associated with influenza.
IFITM3 Inhibits Influenza A Virus Infection by Preventing Cytosolic Entry
-----------------------------------------

Antiviral effects of Psidium guajava Linn. (guava) tea http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22453134
Capture of influenza viruses and prevention of their infection by coral mineral powder (sango mineral powder).
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22451428
Evaluation of the antiviral activity of a green tea solution as a hand-wash disinfectant.
Protective effect of ginseng polysaccharides on influenza viral infection.
Antiviral effect of the egg wax of Amblyomma cajennense (Acari: Ixodidae).
novel compound with antiviral activity depending on PA subunit of viral RNA polymerase.
63223
1-5 cups/day of green tea may prevent influenza infection in children
---------------------------------------------------
63390
Anti-influenza virus activity of tricin, 4',5,7-trihydroxy-3',5'-dimethoxyflavone.
ultraviolet germicidal irradiation (UVGI), microwave-generated steam, and moist heat
were all effective to decontaminate N95 masks (3M models 1860s and 1870)

combinations of baicalein and ribavirin provide better protection against influenza infection than each compound used alone
In severe pdmH1N1, viremia was common and the D222G/N mutant was found in half of the viremic patients.
Triazavirin was efficient in protection of the animals from death. Its protective therapeutic efficacy (36.7+/-1.7%) was close to that of Oseltamivir (50.0+/-0.0%), comparable with that of Remantadin (38.3+/-1.7%) and higher than that of Arbidol (11.7+/-1.7%).
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
household quarantine was the most effective control measure, while school closure
and household quarantine implemented together achieved the greatest benefit.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21767379
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21752202
dihydro-alkyloxy-benzyl-oxopyrimidine (DABO)
4a3 was the most promising lead with broad activity against influenza
------------------------------------------------------------------
four new (1-4) and 10 known (5-14) C-methylated flavonoids were isolated from a methanol extract of Cleistocalyx operculatus buds using an influenza H1N1 neuraminidase inhibition assay. Compounds 4, 7, 8, and 14, with a chalcone skeleton, showed significant inhibitory effects on the viral neuraminidases from two influenza viral strains, H1N1 and H9N2
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Old 08-04-2013, 11:19 AM
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My husband and I own a small business and have a tax ID#, so does this mean I can join then 1 month later request my drugs be sent ?
Old 08-04-2013, 02:24 PM
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well, it is intended for companies to protect their employees.
It probably depends on the exact regulations, formulations

I remember there was a phpbb forum especially for company-preparedness
I can't find it now

I found one old doc, where they say "large businesses"

http://www.roche.com/responsibility/...lu_corpres.htm

15 euro for the standard package of 10 tablets, 75mg each
That price looks very good to me, when you try to order online it was ~$150 in 2006, maybe ~$50-$100 now (?)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strateg...onal_Stockpile
http://beta.congress.gov/bill/113th-...house-bill/307

www.pandemicflu.gov
www.cdc.gov/business
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Old 08-04-2013, 03:06 PM
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The minimum order is 2,500 courses.
Old 08-04-2013, 11:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by felicia View Post
My husband and I own a small business and have a tax ID#, so does this mean I can join then 1 month later request my drugs be sent ?
If you find out for certain could you let us know. I also own my own business. I mean I pay those high taxes, I aught to be able to get something for it.
Old 08-05-2013, 09:12 AM
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Interesting idea there... I to run my own business. but don't exactly employ 2500.

That being said, It's not a stretch of the imagination to consider setting up a large MAG group for things such as this. The model has already been shown successful for groups who do not qualify for corporate insurance rates.

It would probably take a group or club such as forum boards like this to get 2500+ signed up, but I think many of us might think it a good idea. However, I'd have to be able to retain personal supply under my own lock and key.
Old 08-05-2013, 09:37 AM
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the 2500 is just a "rule" by Roche. Not the US-government.
And afair, GSK had 500 instead of 2500.

And the US-government does support company prepping,
independent of size.
So, shall they `(government) buy in bulk (well, they did --> national stockpile)
and then resell in smaller amounts
to companies or organisations or groups that want to prep !
Or make another company, that buys in bulk and resells in smaller
amounts. Exactly what the US-government wants, what they are
calling for, what they support.
Companies or individuals who have their own stockpiles won't need
(so much) support from the national stockpile in case of a pandemic.
So, that's good for the national prepping budget.

But where is the downside, why isn't this individual stockpiling supported
but rather hindered by prescription requirements ?

I'm speculating it's the possible national envy, when neighbors have it
and you have not. Or when the rich have it and the poor not.
And the resulting possible public discussion about it.
The whole subject is uncomfortable.
Sounds plausible ? I'm not American.(in Germany it's even worse...)
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Old 08-05-2013, 11:04 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gsgs View Post
the 2500 is just a "rule" by Roche. Not the US-government.
And afair, GSK had 500 instead of 2500.

And the US-government does support company prepping,
independent of size.
So, shall they `(government) buy in bulk (well, they did --> national stockpile)
and then resell in smaller amounts
to companies or organisations or groups that want to prep !
Or make another company, that buys in bulk and resells in smaller
amounts. Exactly what the US-government wants, what they are
calling for, what they support.
Companies or individuals who have their own stockpiles won't need
(so much) support from the national stockpile in case of a pandemic.
So, that's good for the national prepping budget.

But where is the downside, why isn't this individual stockpiling supported
but rather hindered by prescription requirements ?

I'm speculating it's the possible national envy, when neighbors have it
and you have not. Or when the rich have it and the poor not.
And the resulting possible public discussion about it.
The whole subject is uncomfortable.
Sounds plausible ? I'm not American.(in Germany it's even worse...)
I could find probably 200 to MAYBE 250 hundred people that I have employed over the years. I'd have a hard time doing 500 and 2500 would be impossible (our town has only 1009 people living in it). Oh well, it was a nice thought.
Old 08-05-2013, 10:37 PM
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Just an observation regarding a post I made yesterday about vaccines for polio and the fact that some people are against vaccinations because of propaganda.

What makes antivirals different from vaccines? Could not the government or big pharma poison you, mark you, or introduce some disease process via an antiviral, or any other medication for that matter? Yes, they could. I'm just trying to understand the bias against vaccines by some people who would, no doubt, be otherwise willing to take any other form of medication. FWIW, my career was in the biomedical field for nearly two decades, so I'm very familiar with immunology in particular and pharmacology in general. Just trying to understand the disparity.
Old 08-06-2013, 03:28 AM
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the ethical dispute about personal antivirals stockpiling

wikipedia:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oseltamivir
In late October 2005, Roche announced it was suspending shipments to pharmacies
in the United States and Canada until the North American seasonal flu outbreak began,
to address concerns about private stockpiling and to preserve supplies for seasonal
influenza.[54] Sales were suspended in Hong Kong as well, and on November 8, 2005,
also in China. Roche said it would instead send all supplies to China's health ministry.[55]

In December 2008, the Indian drug company, Cipla won its case in India's court system
allowing it to manufacture a cheaper generic version of Tamiflu, called Antiflu.
In May 2009, Cipla won approval from the WHO certifying that its drug Antiflu was as
effective as Tamiflu, and Antiflu is included in the WHO list of prequalified medicinal products.[62]

A short supply of oseltamivir prompted some individuals to stockpile the drug.
Several American states issued advisories strongly discouraging this practice.
Production has since caught up with current demand (see above).[citation needed]

In The New England Journal of Medicine, Anne Moscona (2005) argues that the use
of personal stockpiles of oseltamivir could result in the administration of low dosages,
allowing for the development of drug-resistant virus strains.[49] Many stockpilers will
only have ten 75 mg pills (the current[when?] recommended dosage for oseltamivir),
but this may be insufficient for the treatment of H5N1.[15]

Another argument against individual stockpiling is that limited drugs should be kept for
more strategic deployment, that is, to hard-hit areas, to people in critical roles (e.g.,
healthcare and government workers), to people vulnerable to seasonal flu, or to people
who actually have come down with avian influenza. Ethical arguments are sometimes
made as to whether affluent people or nations should have preferred access to antiviral
medications. Illegal importation might divert the drug from poorer countries where the
risk of avian influenza is actually higher. A counter argument is that it is difficult to
justify prohibition of individual stockpiling, when some of the same arguments are
pertinent to corporate stockpiling, which is both allowed and encouraged.[63]

A third argument is that it would be difficult for home users to determine whether
illegally imported Tamiflu is counterfeit. In December 2005, 53 packages of counterfeit
Tamiflu tablets were intercepted by the US Customs Service in South San Francisco.
The packages were labeled "Generic Tamiflu". Roche officials know of only one instance
of counterfeit Tamiflu appearing outside of the United States: incorrectly labeled tablets
found in Holland, which contained only vitamin C and lactose.[73]

An argument in favor of individual stockpiling is that Roche is on the record as saying
that without more orders, they may have to actually curtail production.[64] Individual
stockpiling could bring market forces to play, maintaining production capacity and
allowing the total supply on hand to be higher in case demand again outstrips production
in the future, for instance, during a sudden influenza outbreak.

long article here:
http://www.psandman.com/col/tamiflu.htm
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