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Old 07-29-2013, 07:55 PM
ACA1001 ACA1001 is offline
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This is a looong post, just so folks are warned.

So I know this is highly implausible, but for the sake of discussion, let's say you had a group of around twenty or thirty people, men and women. You end up stranded in a land with absolutely no supplies or tools whatsoever and you're going to be this way for years. Normally, this would mean certain death for the people. However, one of you has a whole load of knowledge and skills on how to re-build society from scratch. Basically, it's just the people and the trees, mountains, wild animals, and so forth. Let's also assume they are near an ocean, or a beach of some type. And by near, it doesn't have to mean a five minute walk, it could be like a two-hour jog, so maybe ten-twelve miles inland.

So what I want to do is give a list of all the things and knowledge I think one would need to establish a successful colony and re-start civilization. I will give a basic overview of each thing. Also keep in mind I am a neophyte regarding all this. I would think first and foremost we would need are the following (not necessarily in this order though):

Tools & Weapons
Food and Water
Shelter
Fire
Pottery
Rope & Cord
Salt

The other things that I'll get to in a bit would come later, but these I'd imagine would be the most important. I would instruct the group in this and then give my ideas:

Tools & Weapons
To make tools and weapons, we will need stones and wood. Different types of stones are better for making stone tools than others, and of course there is skill involved too, so only you the prepper initially will be able to make good functioning stone tools. The basic idea would be to start making basic tools by using a rock to pound other rocks into shapes. The initial tools I would start with are stone knives, as a knife as a tool has so many other uses (for example, carving thick would sticks into fine points for use as spears).

I would also make axes. This I would try to do by pounding decent-sized stones into axe heads and also pounding in a space to fit in a good thick stick or branch to serve as the handle. And finally, I'd seek to make a spear thrower, also called an atlatl (this is a prehistoric tool) that allows one to throw a spear a much greater distance through leverage---prehistoric people used to use them to down mammoths from a distance). And of course decent spears, either by carving the ends of good-sized sticks/branches, or by making quality spear heads to attach. One thing I would also seek to do is teach everyone else how to make these tools. If each person has a decent stone knife, stone axe, and a spear with spear thrower, well now we are not completely defenseless against the animals and have basic tools to make other things.

Another tool (although maybe not explicitly a tool) but needed for gathering things would be baskets. These one can weave out of a variety of different materials, ranging from woods to grasses. Basket weaving is an ancient human craft and a whole topic unto itself, however making basic baskets out of grass could be an enormous aid in being able to gather vegetation.

Food and Water
Depending on the situation, making tools might come before, or after, food and water. I imagine it might come before food, but people might have to make due drinking water from natural water sources (streams) until they had ways to purify it. To acquire food, I envision three ways:

Gathering: This would entail going around and gathering various plants for food (using the baskets). It would require you to have a knowledge of what is edible and what is not. This might well be impossible I think generally speaking because if you are in say Central or South America the vegetation will be different than in North America, but let's say you have a decent basic working knowledge of things that are edible and not edible.

Traps: You could set a variety of traps to kill small game, which could serve as a source of meat.

Hunting: You can hunt the meat down. This might be difficult as most people who hunt are probably used to using a firearm or bow-and-arrow, not a spear. However, if there are animals such as wild hogs in the area, I imagine one could try techniques such as sneaking up on a group of hogs from a distance, then using the spear thrower to beam a spear into it (if you are skilled at such spear-throwing, this would especially be helpful). Also people do use spear throwers and spears to hunt hogs even today. This actually could be a decent SHTF skill I think, because if you were out-of-luck in terms of firearms or archery equipment, if you could make a spear and spear thrower, and beam it with skill into a hog, deer, or whatnot, well there's your meat.

Another technique could be climbing up into a tree and waiting for an animal such as a hog or deer to pass by, then dropping on it with the spear and killing it. A third technique for hunting, although it would only work in a very hot climate, would be persistence hunting, i.e. running the animals down over a distance. A hunting technique for cold weather could be ambushing a herd of animals and running them out onto a frozen lake, where they can then be killed easily. Yet another technique could be forcing a group of animals over a cliff (this could be done with spears and spears lit with a fireball on the end).

However acquired, once one had the meat, one would have to immediately engage in preserving it. Salt would not be immediately available, so one would have to use non-salt preservation techniques. I believe one can acquire salt by boiling hickory roots, but I don't know how many roots it would take to get enough salt for preserving meat.

To acquire safe water, one would need a way to hold it, and this is where pottery comes in, and also a way to purify it (the minimum method through boiling it). One can make pottery from clay. Clay is all over the place, river banks, stream beds, canyons, gullies, etc...So if our people are getting water from a river or stream, they could make pottery from the clay. The first pottery would be bowls I'd imagine. So you would show the people how to gather clay and begin shaping it into bowls. Then you could let it air dry in the sun for a length of time (I am not sure of the exact length, but this is where more research comes in), and then make a fire to bake them to make them hard. You then have earthenware that can be used for gathering and drinking water. In addition, you now have the ability to at least boil the water and also to gather water from rain.

Pottery can also be used for cooking food overall, so you could have more delicious meats and vegetation to eat. Pottery cooking is an ancient skill that is a whole subject unto itself. I would suggest having a decent working knowledge of how to cook food in a clay pot though.

So your group now has some real basics: tools, weapons, pottery, maybe additional clothing (from animals), and sources of food. And depending on the animals you kill, you could also perhaps use them for further things. For example, when the Native Americans hunted buffalo, they used the entire animal: the bones for tools and weapons, the meat for food, the wool for clothing, the hides for blankets and tepees, the muscle tissue to make the strings of bows, etc...this would depend though on what animals are in the area.

Shelter
Basic shelter would at first consist of using sticks and vegetation to create very basic shelters. If large animals are killed, I'd think one could use their hides for making improved shelters. However, since your goal is to re-start civilization, you will need higher-level forms of shelter. Two materials that come to my mind are logs and bricks.

To acquire logs, one would need to cut down trees, and this is where the axes come into play. Your stone-tool making ability here that you have would allow you to have produce good-quality stone axes for people to use. The Russian peasants had ways of building log homes and buildings strictly out of wood, with no conventional nails or screws or anything. It involves shaping the ends of the logs in certain ways and then assembling them into the structure. One also can carve holes through the ends of the log to drive wooden pegs through to create a more stable structure.

However, for our group's sake, let's say they just want to create a few basic solid structures for the time being, with plans to improve on construction later on. One reason I could see such a structures being crucial would be if there is a winter coming, and the group wanted to store meat. Well if they are planning to build up a big pile of meat, it needs to be protected from other animals that would try to get it, and this requires a structure that the animals can't break through.

To make bricks, one would need a source of mud or clay. The Romans made clay-fired bricks and the Egyptians made mud bricks. Our group could gather clay or perhaps could manufacture mud by making shovels and then digging up piles of dirt and mixing the dirt with water to create mud. Our group could gather grass as well to mix in with the mud to help make the bricks stronger. This also would be how to make the cement to cement the bricks together. Manufacture of the bricks would require shaping the mud into bricks and then letting them dry in the sun and I believe also baking them to harden them up.

The ideal way to bake bricks and also make ceramics such as pottery would be via a kiln. From what I have read, you can build a basic kiln from scratch via bricks. Air dry the bricks and then use them for the walls of the kiln. When the fire is lit in the kiln, it can heat the brick walls to finish them and make them true bricks. With kilns, you now have a way to bake bricks and make good-quality pottery and also to make charcoal, which can be used for cooking.

Brickmaking sounds easier to me then chopping down trees and building a structure with them. It would take quite a few logs and worse a lot of hard physical labor to chop them down and then carve them and move them into place as a structure. Even if you yourself know how to carve the logs, it probably wouldn't be a skill you could just teach to others. Making bricks could be more tedious, but in the end require less energy expenditure and less skill. With the ability to manufacture solid brick structures, our group now could build very decent-quality shelters, which they also could use for long-term food storage. Some trees might need to be cut down for wood for flooring and roofing however.

Salt
Salt can be optional to make, depending. If the group can get adequate salt via the meat they are eating, I'd focus on some other things first. However, if salt is needed, one can obtain it by boiling the crushed roots of a hickory tree. With a supply of salt, it could then be used for food preservation and flavoring food.

Clothing:
The assumption is our group is starting out with the clothes on their bodies. This is suitable to get by in the moderate climate or hot climate, however, if a winter is going to come, they are going to need thick clothing. This I imagine could come from the hides and furs of animals. If not required for immediate survival however, additional clothing should be something created later.

Rope & Cord:
Rope and cord are another set of additional materials that the group probably should not engage in making unless they absolutely need them. Rope and cord can be made out of grass (just like the baskets). The Inca used to make rope bridges that were longer in span than most European bridges of the time. To make good rope and cord though requires knowledge of how to take grass and weave or tie it together.

Creating a village
So now our group has the basics: tools, weapons, baskets, clothing (if needed), rope and cord (if needed), pottery, food, water, shelter, fire, and kilns. And let's say our group has gotten into a routine now where everyone has a decent basic knowledge on how to make and use these essentials.

So the next step in your grand plan to re-start civilization now involves the development of more complex things (which I don't know if they could all be created or not):

Basic infrastructure such as sanitation
Paper
Glass
Furnaces, ovens, kilns, forges
Steel (if iron ore or some source of iron available to use)
Ink
Printing press
Steam power
Soap
Pumps
Pipes
Biodiesel
Engines
Lathe
Milling Machine

(the last four in particular would be difficult and would require you to already have a lot of knowledge, however the idea was to use woodworking to build primitive machine tools, like a lathe, milling machine, etc...and if iron ore is available, people could mine it and build a furnace and turn it into steel, then use the steel and machine tools to forge the various parts for the steam and diesel engines)

Sanitation and Hygiene

Sanitation and Hygiene would be extremely important. Hygiene would require the ability to bath, which could mean making bath tubs and soap. The bathtubs could be made from wood. Soap can be made scratch, but to make it totally from scratch as our group has to will require you to have some precise knowledge. To make soap requires wood ash, water, animal fats, plant oils, and salt. It in particular could be difficult if you don't know what the exact temperature is of the soap because of lack of instruments that can tell the temperature. Like tool making and hunting, it would be a skillset you'd need to already have to be able to make the soap.

You will also need some gloves and clothing (which you will probably make from animals) for protection as making the lye (potassium-hydroxide) to make the soap with is very dangerous. Lye can burn you badly and cause blindness if it gets into your eyes. You will need soft water for making the soap, as hard water can contain chemicals in it that will interfere with the soapmaking chemistry. So you will need to distill the water if you can.

Paper
Paper would again be a pre-established skillset to have. Paper will require lye as well, and can be made from plant materials. With the paper, you could then make books to record things via knowing basic bookmaking.

Glass
For glass you would need sand, but you would also need some other chemicals which I am not sure if our group would be able to obtain easily.

Furnaces, Ovens, Kilns, Forges
These for things like cooking and baking foods and bricks and also for making steel if one can mine iron ore.

Steel
As said, first the people would need iron ore.

Ink
This can be made from plants, fruits, or charcoal (which you can make).

Printing Press
I am thinking something very basic here, like a Gutenberg hand-operated press. But if your little colony has the ability to make paper, ink, and print books efficiently, you have a way to write and record all sorts of things.

Steam Power
Steam engines can have a number of uses, but you would need knowledge both of how to make the parts and of how to then put them together for it to work. But if one had said knowledge, our colony would gain some real advantages. Things like steam vehicles for example could be made. Steam tractors for farming and also vehicles for basic moving around.

Diesel Engine
If one could make the parts and put such a basic engine together, the colony could probably manufacture biodiesel to fuel such engines, which could have all sorts of applications.

Machine Tools
Machine tools such as a lathe, milling machine, etc...would be required to do any sort of machining of parts. If the people could fashion basic manual versions of such tools, then they could have said ability. I am assuming the prepper is a mechanical and engineering-oriented guy who knows how to do machining of parts.

Pipes and Pumps
These for various infrastructure uses. Maybe our people could engage in a project over time to build a water piping or delivery system to their community with flowing water like the Inca had.

I figure even if our prepper guy and the rest of the group did not have the knowledge to be making steel and then forging it into parts and making engines, they still could establish a decent little society via the other skills. They could probably make things like pipes of some type and irrigate and so forth. Or if their mechanical knowledge was limited to steam engines, that would still be a big help. So I am wondering if I way over-simplified things or glossed over certain things? Would my society be able to work provided the prepper had the knowledge to share with the others? Suggestions for other ideas, things missed, over-simplified, ways to improve things, etc...constructive criticism is fully welcome.

I was thinking if the society succeeded in building engines after some time, they could probably work out how to create motorized boats and basic airplanes with time as well.
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Old 07-29-2013, 09:00 PM
Bayou woods guy Bayou woods guy is offline
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Re-build society from scratch....that's huge. Looks like you've got a good list started
Old 07-29-2013, 09:45 PM
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This sounds like Jules Verne's Mysterious Island, where a group of Union POWs, having made an amazing escape from a southern prison camp by stealing an observation balloon, are blown by a storm far out to sea and wind up on an island with nothing but the clothes on their backs. They manage to survive and even build a small community by using what few items they can salvage and their considerable knowledge of how to make everything from iron to nitroglycerin. Of course it doesn't hurt that the island they land on has minerals and ores in abundance... Or that the castaways quite literally had 'someone' looking out for them...
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Old 07-29-2013, 11:24 PM
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Never read Mysterious Island, will have to check it out. I posted my idea over at another forum as well, there the consensus was that my group would die out for the following reasons:

1) Settlers from Europe came over with far more supplies and knowledge than my group and yet the first colonies still failed

2) Minor injuries and illnesses would kill people due to lack of modern medical treatment.

3) Hunting animals for food would be a lot more difficult than I am assuming. The group would be spending too much time and energy just trying to obtain the next meal.

4) Bricks and pottery require specific clays which could be difficult to come by.

5) To boil the amounts of water needed for everyone (50 gallons a day at a minimum) would require more technology (metal pots).

6) Without laundering, the clothing the group is wearing would wear out quickly and might not make it to the first winter. In addition, killing animals for their fur is much more difficult and hazardous than I am assuming.

7) Many people would be lazy bums not willing to work.

Some said maybe I should have the group start off with supplies from civilization and then work up how to live off the land before the supplies run out. Also, maybe the group could be placed into a warm climate area (Central or South America) and thus winter not be nearly as big a concern.
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Old 07-30-2013, 08:33 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ACA1001 View Post
Never read Mysterious Island, will have to check it out.
It's a FUN read. The steel in the dog collar was cheating on the part of the author, and I'm a bit dubious about the one grain of corn in the guy's pocket bit. But everything else up to when essential items started mysteriously appearing was very impressive. Robinson Crusoe and the family Robinson had whole ships they could loot; these four men and a boy had to do almost everything from scratch.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ACA1001 View Post
I posted my idea over at another forum as well, there the consensus was that my group would die out for the following reasons:

1) Settlers from Europe came over with far more supplies and knowledge than my group and yet the first colonies still failed
Because they lacked specific knowledge of their surroundings and how to take advantage of them. And weren't flexible enough to study the natives and see how they survived.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ACA1001 View Post
2) Minor injuries and illnesses would kill people due to lack of modern medical treatment.
Modern medical treatment can be as basic as cleaning and bandaging wounds. If your one smart guy knows herbs, too, you can make some fairly decent treatments and drugs.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ACA1001 View Post
3) Hunting animals for food would be a lot more difficult than I am assuming. The group would be spending too much time and energy just trying to obtain the next meal.
Snares. Trap lines. Fishing lines. They can be made from vegetable fibers and laid out to catch things without anyone having to devote further effort until something is caught.

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Originally Posted by ACA1001 View Post
4) Bricks and pottery require specific clays which could be difficult to come by.
Pottery, yes. Bricks, maybe not. You can make them from mud and bake them solid and as long as water is kept from them, as by using a waterproof glaze over a wall built of them, they'll last a long time. Google 'mud brick structures'.

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Originally Posted by ACA1001 View Post
5) To boil the amounts of water needed for everyone (50 gallons a day at a minimum) would require more technology (metal pots).
You can boil water in animal skins. Sounds crazy but the native Americans and many other nomadic tribes did so.

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6) Without laundering, the clothing the group is wearing would wear out quickly and might not make it to the first winter. In addition, killing animals for their fur is much more difficult and hazardous than I am assuming.
And why wouldn't there be laundering? Ash, animal fat, water, you've got soap; a running stream, a wash machine. Hand operated, but still...

And what are these people wearing, chiffon? Clothes are supposed to last. And even when they wear out, they can be replaced with cloth made of plant fiber. That's what cotton is, after all. Although getting cotton fibers out of the cotton bolls isn't a fun task.

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Originally Posted by ACA1001 View Post
7) Many people would be lazy bums not willing to work.
Can't say much about that. Except that if the rule is you don't work, you don't eat, you'll see some impressive behavior modification.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ACA1001 View Post
Some said maybe I should have the group start off with supplies from civilization and then work up how to live off the land before the supplies run out. Also, maybe the group could be placed into a warm climate area (Central or South America) and thus winter not be nearly as big a concern.
That couldn't hurt.
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Old 07-30-2013, 08:44 AM
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As much as I like scenarios like this, I have to agree that the basic parameters are too minimal to make it work, much as the list you gave that came from another forum.

Basically, 30 people, only one of which has the knowledge to accomplish the tasks set out, have to go from pre-human status using at best some natural such as sticks and stone, to stone age tools, and all the way up to early 20th century technology in the matter of a few months. The process can certainly be done. It has been done. wood sticks and stones became knapped tools and wooden devices, and they were used to make easily workable copper tools and they were able to... You can see where this is going.

I just don't think the 30 people could survive long enough to get to the point of being a self-sustaining civilization starting with just the clothes on their backs, even in an ideal climate, in an are rich with resources.

What they could probably do, until illness or injury slowly took them out one or two at a time, is set up a small camp and live off the land at the stone and into the copper age level.

You might consider a scenario where people have to choose the skills, tools, and other items they would need to start over, and specify to what level they would aspire to.

Just my opinion



If it will help in planning a revised scenario, here is a list of skills I think could be important. Some probably don't apply in the early stages, or at all in a couple of instances, but being lazy I didn't strip the list.

Same with the tools list after the skills list.

And the third list is a partial summery of what I think would make a good Community.


1. Accountant
2. Active military
3. Administrator
4. Alternative energy specialist
5. Alternative HVAC specialist
6. Ammunition re-loader
7. Appliance repairman
8. Artist
9. Assayer
10. Author
11. Baker
12. Banker
13. Barber
14. Basket maker
15. Bathhouse/shower room operator
16. Beautician
17. Beekeeper
18. Bicycle Repairman
19. Biodiesel maker
20. Black powder maker
21. Blacksmith
22. Book keeper
23. Bookbinder
24. Botanist
25. Brew master
26. Brick maker
27. Bullet caster
28. Butcher/meat processor
29. Candle maker
30. Candy maker
31. Carpenter
32. Cartridge maker
33. Cartwright
34. Chandler
35. Charcoal burner
36. Cheese maker
37. Chemist
38. Chimney sweep
39. Cobbler/shoe maker
40. Coffin maker
41. Contractor
42. Cook
43. Cooper (barrel maker)
44. Coppersmith
45. Dentist
46. Distiller, drinking alcohol
47. Distiller, fuel alcohol
48. Doctor
49. Dog trainer
50. Dye maker
51. Edged tool sharpener (knives/saw blades/chainsaw chains, etc)
52. Electrician
53. Electronics tech
54. EMT/Paramedic
55. Entertainer
56. Entrepreneur
57. Executive
58. Experienced barterer/flea market operator
59. Factory worker
60. Farm hand
61. Farmer
62. Farmer
63. Farrier
64. Firefighter
65. Firewood purveyor
66. Fisherman
67. Food canner/processor
68. Furniture maker
69. Gardener
70. Gatherer (wild plants, useful rocks and minerals)
71. Glass maker
72. Goatherd
73. Goldsmith/silversmith
74. Gravedigger
75. Gun dealer
76. Gunpowder maker
77. Gunsmith/gun maker
78. Handyman
79. Harvester/picker
80. Heavy equipment operator
81. Herbalist/mineralist/apothecary
82. Historian
83. Horse trainer/wrangler
84. Hunter/trapper
85. Ice purveyor/harvester/maker
86. Ink maker
87. Inventor
88. Janitor
89. Judge/arbitrator
90. Knife maker
91. Knife sharpener
92. Knitter/crocheter
93. Laundress/laundry room operator
94. Leather worker
95. Librarian
96. Locksmith
97. Logger/forester/sawyer
98. Lumber maker
99. Machinist
100. Mechanic
101. Metal worker
102. Metallurgist
103. Midwife
104. Milk maid
105. Milk processor
106. Miller
107. Millwright
108. Miner
109. Mulcher/composter/manure collector
110. Musician
111. Net maker
112. Nurse
113. Nurse's aid
114. Optician (eyeglass maker)
115. Orchardman/arborist
116. Orderly
117. Paper maker
118. Peace Officer/police/sheriff/marshall/deputies
119. Pedi-cab driver
120. Pest control specialist
121. Pharmacist
122. Physicist
123. Plumber
124. Postman
125. Pottery maker
126. Pressure canner food storage specialist
127. Primitive building specialist
128. Printer/newspaperman
129. Psychologist/Psychiatrist
130. Quilter/Quilt maker
131. Radio Operator
132. Radio/tv repairman
133. Ranch hand
134. Rancher
135. Repairman
136. Roofer
137. Rope/cordage maker
138. Sail maker
139. Sailor (Boatswain)
140. Salesman
141. Salt maker
142. Salvage specialist
143. Sanitation worker
144. Scribe
145. Secretary
146. Security guard
147. Shake/shingle maker
148. Sheep sheerer
149. Shepherd
150. Shipwright/boat builder
151. Shoemaker
152. Skill At Arms instructor
153. Small engine mechanic
154. Smelter/foundry-man
155. Soap maker
156. Soldier
157. Spice purveyor
158. Spinner/Weaver
159. Stonemason/brick layer
160. Storyteller
161. Student
162. Sugar maker
163. Surveyor
164. Tailor/seamstress
165. Tanner
166. Teacher
167. Teller/cashier
168. Thatcher
169. Tinker
170. Tire repairman
171. Tool & die maker
172. Toy & game maker
173. Trade maker
174. Trader/Wagoner
175. Trapper
176. Truck driver
177. Undertaker
178. Veterinarian
179. Watch/clock repairman/maker
180. Weaver
181. Welder
182. Well driller
183. Wheelwright
184. Winemaker
185. Wood gas equipment maker
186. Woodworker


Community

A community located within 10 miles of an Interstate, on or with access to a large river/lake/gulf/ocean

Oblong Grid pattern: 100m x 200m = 328.1’ x 656.2’ w/16’ alley & 36’ streets, 2 lots x 10 lots
(656’ c/l of streets - 18’ ½ street – 18’ ½ street)/10 lots = 62’ effective wide lots
(328’ c/l of streets - 18’ ½ street – 18’ ½ street – 16’ alley)/2 lots = 138’ effective deep lots
10 62’ x 138’ (18.9m x 42.1m) usable lots per side per standard block with 16’ alley & 36’ streets
(Streets 8’ parking, 10’ lane, 10’ lane, 8’ parking) = 36’ wide

Municipal services:
Electricity
Water
Sewer
Natural gas w/LNG tanks to continue service when outside sources fail
Trash/garbage pickup w/recycle center/methane extractor/mulcher/incinerator/landfill
Streets & roads (maintenance/repairs/cleaning/snow removal/sanding)
Dusk to Dawn lights/Street lights
Postal service/post office
Internet service
Telephone service
Cablevision service
Police Department
Agricultural Extension Service
Animal control
Fire department
Ambulance
Search & Rescue
Civil Defense
Ferry boat service
Town Bus service
Trolley service
Light rail service
Subway service
Cab/limo/pedicab service
Orphanage
Homeless family shelter
Women’s shelter
Men’s shelter
Teen center w/serving kitchen/activity/game rooms/arcade/dance hall w/bandstand
Adult meeting/activity center w/lobby/serving kitchen/administration offices/ meeting/activity rooms/halls
Public swimming pool
Public parks (picnic tables/grills/tennis/baseball/basketball/volleyball/exercise/pavilion/bikes/skates/boards)

Community Transportation Terminals
Cab/limo/pedi-cab terminal
Regional airport (outside of town)
Amtrak Rail terminal
Light rail/Subway/Trolley terminal
OTR Bus terminal
Town Bus terminal
Ferry boat terminal

Education complex
Pre-school
Grade school
Middle school
Junior High School
High School
Junior College
Tech schools
Military academy
Special Learning Center
Dorms
Playgrounds
Sports fields
Parade grounds
Quad
Gyms
Daycare center (child, adult, disabled)(indoor & outdoor play areas/kitchen/health unit/administration offices)
Emergency Services substations w/fire trucks, rescue van, ambulance, police cars/Civil Defense

Cultural center
Ballroom
Stage theater
Outdoor stage/theater
Music hall w/philharmonic orchestra
Library
Museum of Art
Museum – Natural Science & History
Public park (picnic tables/grills/tennis/baseball/basketball/volleyball/exercise/pavilion/bikes/skates/boards)
Zoo
Botanical garden
Street artists’ area (art, music, juggling, mimes, etc.)
Daycare center (child, adult, disabled)(indoor & outdoor play areas/kitchen/health unit/administration offices)
Emergency Services substations w/fire trucks, rescue van, ambulance, police cars/Civil Defense

Downtown district
Government hall w/EOC
Regional Hospital w/trauma center & roof helicopter pad
Large multi-floor department store
large office buildings
high rise office buildings
town houses
condos
large apartment buildings
high rise apartment buildings
Parking Garage
Parking Lot (oversize vehicles, semis, RVs, vehicles w/trailers, etc)
Public park (picnic tables/grills/tennis/baseball/basketball/volleyball/exercise/pavilion/bikes/skates/boards)
Daycare center (child, adult, disabled)(indoor & outdoor play areas/kitchen/health unit/administration offices)
Emergency Services substations w/fire trucks, rescue van, ambulance, police cars/Civil Defense

Commercial areas
individual commercial establishments
open air highway malls
small office buildings
large office buildings
Commercial business park
Daycare center (child, adult, disabled)(indoor & outdoor play areas/kitchen/health unit/administration offices)
Emergency Services substations w/fire trucks, rescue van, ambulance, police cars/Civil Defense

Suburban areas
single family dwellings
duplexes
quadraplexes
small estates
large estates
small apartment buildings
condos
dual use housing/cottage industry
Public parks (picnic tables/grills/tennis/baseball/basketball/volleyball/exercise/pavilion/bikes/skates/boards)
Individual commercial businesses
Outdoor strip malls
Churches/Temples/Synagogues
Daycare center (child, adult, disabled)(indoor & outdoor play areas/kitchen/health unit/administration offices)
Teen center w/serving kitchen/activity/game rooms/arcade/dance hall w/bandstand
Adult meeting/activity center w/lobby/serving kitchen/administration offices/ meeting/activity rooms/halls
Emergency Services substations w/fire trucks, rescue van, ambulance, police cars/Civil Defense

Light industry parks/areas
small to moderate size businesses
low pollution
low noise
low visual impact
Daycare center (child, adult, disabled)(indoor & outdoor play areas/kitchen/health unit/administration offices)
Emergency Services substations w/fire trucks, rescue van, ambulance, police cars/Civil Defense

Heavy industry area (edge of town)
Rail switch yard & terminal
Truck terminal
major industrial plants
moderate size to large industrial businesses
Emergency Services substations w/fire trucks, rescue van, ambulance, police cars/Civil Defense
smoke stacks/waste discharges
high noise
high visual impact
natural resource development (quarries, mines, dams, logging, etc)
Emergency Services substations w/fire trucks, rescue van, ambulance, police cars/Civil Defense

Waterfront district
Port
Marina
Commercial docks w/warehouses
Cruise ship docks
Ferry dock
Public park (picnic tables/grills)
Public beach
Aquarium
Daycare center (child, adult, disabled)(indoor & outdoor play areas/kitchen/health unit/administration offices)
Emergency Services substations w/fire trucks, rescue van, ambulance, police cars/Civil Defense

Edge of town facilities
3 Water tanks around perimeter of town
8 water wells around perimeter of town
Animal control impound
Cemetery
Community services maintenance yard
Convention center
Electrical power plant (gas/coal/solar/wind/hydro/nuclear)
Fairgrounds
Golf course
Indoor events center
Indoor sports arena(s) (basketball, hockey, etc)
Juvenal Hall
Outdoor events center
Outdoor sports stadium(s) (football/baseball/soccer, etc)
Stockyards
Town armory
Town Jail
Waste treatment plant
Water treatment plants
Daycare center (child, adult, disabled)(indoor & outdoor play areas/kitchen/health unit/administration offices)
Emergency Services substations w/fire trucks, rescue van, ambulance, police cars/Civil Defense

In the country, served by the community
Campground
Landfill/recycle center/incinerator
Motorsports area (4x4/quads/motocross)
Observatory/planetarium
Weather radar site
Wilderness area
Wildfire firefighting stations (plus fire fighting aircraft at airport)
Emergency Services substations w/fire trucks, rescue van, ambulance, police cars/Civil Defense

Agricultural areas
Small homesteads/farms
Large homesteads/farms
Truck farms
Commercial farms & ranches
Large commercial farms & ranches

Primary agricultural crops (all open pollinated)
Ash trees (firewood & lumber)
Barley (grain & alcohol)
Black walnut trees (nuts & lumber)
Citrus fruit trees (oranges, lemons, limes)
Corn (for grain & oil)
Cotton
Fodder beets
Fruit trees (for fruit & specialty lumber)
Great Northern Beans
Ground & bush fruits
Hay – Alfalfa
Hay – Timothy
Hay – Fescue
Hay – Red Clover
Hemp (for grain, fiber, paper, & straw)
Hickory trees (nuts, firewood, & lumber)
Hops (alcohol)
Kamut (grain)
Oak trees (acorns & lumber)
Oats (for grain & straw)
Other Nut trees (for nuts)
Pine tree – Construction
Pinto Beans
Popcorn
Potatoes
Quinoa (grain)
Rice (grain)
Rye (grain & alcohol)
Small red beans
Sorghum – feed
Sorghum – popping
Soybeans (for grain & oil)
Spelt (grain)
Sugar beets
Wheat – Durum (for grain & straw)
Wheat – Hard Red Winter (for grain & straw)
Wheat – Hard White (for grain & straw)
Wheat – Soft White (for grain & straw)
Yellow pine trees (SYP) – Construction lumber


Small scale/Specialty agricultural crops (all open pollinated)(open field or greenhouse)
Bananas
Cocoa
Coffee
Culinary herbs/spices/seasonings/flavorings/etc.
Pharmaceutical source plants
Tea
Tobacco



Businesses
Adventure sports shop (skating/boarding/surfing/swimming/kayaking/boogie board/climbing/caving/etc.)
Air cargo airline (at airport)
Air charter passenger airline (at airport)
Aircraft maintenance shop (at airport)
Aircraft rentals (at airport)
Airline (at airport)
Alcohol distribution service (liquor, beer, wine)(on perimeter)
Alternate energy business
Ammunition manufacturer (on perimeter)
Ammunition reloader
Antique business
Appliance factory (light industry)
Appliance shop
Arbitrator/Judiciary
Arborist service/tree felling/removal/planting/care
Arcade
Architect
Artist studio
Asphalt plant (on perimeter)
Assay shop
Attorney/lawyer offices
Auction service
Auto accessories store (window tinting, electronics, etc)
Auto lube & service business
Auto parts production companies (light industry)
Auto parts store
Auto production plant (heavy industry)
Baby/toddler store
Bakery
Bank
Bar
Bar & Grill
Barber shop
Basket shop
Bathhouse
Battery production company (light industry)
Bauxite mine (aluminum ore) (rural area)
Bed & Bath store
Bee/honey business (rural area)
Bicycle courier service
Bicycle shop
Biodiesel production plant (on perimeter)
Blacksmith shop
Blasting service
Boat rentals (at marina)
Boat yard/boat building operation (at port)
Boat/ship chandlery (at marina)
Boat/ship sales (at marina)
Book binding
Book store
Bottling plant (light industry)
Bowling alley
Brake & Muffler shop
Brewery
Brick production plant (light industry)
Buffalo ranch (in rural area)
Bulk fuel plant (heavy industry)
Bullet casting shop
Bus service
Bush-plane/Supply store operation (at airport)
Business/commercial/reunion/meeting retreat facility
Business management corporation
Butcher shop
Buying club membership store
Cab/limo service
Cafe
Candle shop
Candy shop
Cannery
Car/truck sales lot
Card & Gift store
Carpenter shop
Cartwright shop
Casino (downtown)
Casket/burial vault manufacturer
Catering business w/commercial kitchen
Cattle ranch – Herford (in rural area)
Cattle ranch – Mixed Holstein/Jersey/Milking Short horn cattle from Dairy Farms
Cement production plant (in rural area)
Ceramic & glass products factory
Charcoal manufacturer (in rural area)
Chemical production plant (O2, CO2, nitrogen, ammonia, fertilizer, etc) (Heavy industry)
Chicken farm – Cornish (in rural area)
Chicken farm – Leghorn (in rural area)
Chicken farm – Barred Plymouth Rock (in rural area)
Chicken farm – Rhode Island Red (in rural area)
Chimney sweep
Chiropractor office
Christmas store
Clay mine
Clay products factory (light industry)
Clothing factory
Clothing store w/tailoring and repair services
Coal mine (in rural area)
Cocoa plantation (in rural area)
Cocoa processing plant (in rural area)
Coffee house
Coffee plantation (in rural area)
Coffee processing business (in rural area)
Coin/stamp store
Collectibles store (cards, comics, memorabilia, etc.)
Commercial gym
Computer sales and service
Concrete plant
Concrete services
Cooking equipment manufacture
Cooper/barrel maker shop
Copper ore mine (in rural area)
Cotton gin/compress (on perimeter)
Crafts shop
Crude oil/natural gas wells (rural area)
Cruise line (at port)
Culinary herbs/spices/seasonings/flavorings/etc. plantation/greenhouse farm
Dairy farm – Holstein (in rural area)(beefs go to multiple dairy breed cattle ranch)
Dairy farm – Jersey (in rural area)(beefs go to multiple dairy breed cattle ranch)
Dairy farm – Milking Short horn (in rural area)(beefs go to multiple dairy breed cattle ranch)
Dairy/milk processing business
Dance hall w/bandstand
Dance instruction studio
Data processing operation
Deep sea salvage business (at port)
Dehydrated/freeze-dried food production/packaging plant
Demolition company
Dental office
Diaper service
Diner
Disabled deep sea vessel recovery tug service (at port)
Distillery (on perimeter)
Dive/SCUBA shop (at marina)
Doctor office
Dog boarding kennel/dog training/dog grooming business (on perimeter)
Dog Kennel – Airedale Terrier breeder
Dog Kennel – Welsh Terrier breeder
Dog Kennel – Siberian Husky breeder
Dog Kennel – Bull Mastiff breeder
Donut shop
Drafting service
Dry food production & packaging plant (in light industry)
Dye shop
Electrical lineman
Electrical shop
Electronic parts & equipment factory (light industry)
Electronics store (repair & sales)
Emergency Prep store
Entertainment company (karaoke/comedian/dancer/singer/musician/story teller/etc)
Explosives factory (in rural area)
Eye doctor office
Eyeglass store
Fabric and sewing shop
Farm laborer/harvester/picker service (in rural area)
Farm/ranch store
Farmer’s market (year round)
Fast food shops
Feed & seed business
Fencing company
Fiberglass/polymer product manufacturer (pools, tanks, parts, etc) (light industry)
File shredding business
Fine hand crafted goods factory
Firewood business (in rural area)
Firing range/self-defense training (in rural area)
Fish hatchery/Fish farm
Fishery operation (at port)
Fishing charter boat operation (at port)
Fishing gear manufacture
Flea market
Flour mill (on perimeter)
Flower shop
Frozen food plant (light industry)
Fuel alcohol production (in rural area)
Furniture factory (light industry)
Furniture store
Gallium Arsenide production facility (light industry)
Game trapper (in rural area)
Garage/mechanic
General construction company (on perimeter)
Glass factory (light industry)
Glass shop
Goat farm (in rural area)
Grainery (on perimeter)
Granite quarry (in rural area)
Grocery store
Grounds keeping service
Gun manufacturer
Gun powder manufacturer (on perimeter)
Haberdashery
Hair/nail salon/day spa
Handyman/tinker business
Hardware store
Hay processor (in rural area)
Heavy equipment business (on perimeter)
Heavy construction & mining equipment production plant (heavy industry)
Heavy lift helicopter business (at airport)
Helicopter passenger service (at airport)
Helicopter tour service (at airport)
Helium well (in rural area)
High/new technology store
Hobby/model shop
Home automation company
Home builders supply
Home construction company
Home security & fire alarm company
Home security materials company (safes, security bars, gates, vault doors, hidden rooms, monitoring systems)
Horse Ranch – Clydesdale
Horse Ranch – Barb
Horse Ranch – Morgan
Horse shoeing shop/farrier
Horse stable/boarding/riding trail/trainer/wrangler (on perimeter)
Horticulture operation (in rural area)
Hotel
Hunting/trapping business (in rural area)
HVAC business
Ice cream shop
Ice purveyor/harvester/maker
Ice skating rink
Import/Export company
Imported goods store
Ink production
Inn
Integrated circuit & LED production facility (light industry)
Irrigation installation & service business
Insurance office
Investment corporation
Iron ore mine (in rural area)
Jewelry store
Karaoke service
Kitchen supply store
Knife maker
Knife store
Knitting/crochet business
Laundry/dry cleaner
Lead mine (in rural area)
Leather goods store
Limestone quarry (in rural area)
Liquor store
Lithium mine & processing facility (in rural area)
Log home/building business (in rural area)
Lumber production (in rural area)
Lumber yard
Machine shop
Maid service
Marble quarry (in rural area)
Maritime shipping company (at port)
Martial arts studio
Meat packing plant (light industry)
Medical center w/doctors’ offices/specialty services/etc.
Mega-Mall & Apartment Complex (earth sheltered) w/ 3 5-story earth sheltered parking garages
Metal foundry
Metal goods fabrication factory (light industry)
Metal shop – coppersmith
Midwifery
Military surplus store
Milk maid service
Milk processor/creamery (on perimeter)
Milling shop
Millwright shop/machinery manufacturer (heavy industry)
Mixed ore mine (in rural area)
Mobile DJ service
Mobile vending service (ice cream/hot dogs/pretzels/soft drinks/tacos/etc.)
Mortuary/crematory (on perimeter)
Motel
Motorcycle sales lot
Movie theater
Mulch/compost/manure collection business (in rural area)
Multiuse high-rise building w/Apartments, Shopping, businesses, 5-story earth sheltered parking garage
Multiple-metal ore smelter/foundry/production mill (heavy industry)
Music instruction business (playing instruments/singing/writing music/etc.)
Music store
Musical instrument store
Newspaper publisher
Night club
Nursing home
Office complex
Office services store (copy/print/etc.)
Office supply store
Orchard (in rural area)
Outdoor entertainment business (party truck/mobile disco & karaoke w/food service equip & sound system)
Outdoor gathering business (in rural area)
Outdoor mobile advertising (searchlight/PA system/mobile billboards)
Outdoor toy sales lot (PWC, ATV, Snowmobiles, etc)
Paper production (light industry)
Pedi-cab service (downtown)
Pest control business
Pet grooming/boarding business (on perimeter)
Pet shop
Pet supply store
Pharmaceutical source plants plantation/greenhouse farm
Pharmacy
Photograph studio/framing shop
Photography store
Photovoltaic cell production facility (light industry)
Pickup truck customizing shop
Plant Nursery (suburbs)
Plastics/polymers production/molding/forming/extruding production factory (heavy industry)
Plumbing business
Plumbing supply store
Pool hall
Portable toilet business (on perimeter)
Pottery shop
Precious metals & currency mint
Precious metals mine (in rural area)
Precious metals processing plant
Precious metals/gems/jewelry business
Printing/publishing business
Propane business (on perimeter)
Pub
Radiator shop
Radio station
Radio/TV shop
Real Estate Agency
Recording studio
Refinery (heavy industry)
Rental garden space (suburbs)
Rental tool business
Research facility (Chemical/Biological/Medical/Physics/Optical/Electronics) (on perimeter)
Resort (in rural area)
Restaurants
Retirement home
Road construction company (heavy industry)
Roadhouse
Roller skating rink
Roofing business (standard/metal/copper/thatching)
Rope, cordage, net production (light industry)
RV/camping trailer sales lot
Sail making shop (at marina)
Salesman service/travelling/static
Salt mine (in rural area)
Salt shop
Salvage & recovery business (from homes and business to be demolished) (light industry)
Salvage yard/junk yard (light industry)
Sand & Gravel quarry (in rural area)
Sandstone quarry (in rural area)
Seasonal food store
Secretary/scribe service
Security service
Self-pick gardens (suburbs)
Semi-Trailer sales lot (on perimeter)
Semi-truck sales lot (on perimeter)
Septic tank manufacture (light industry)
Septic tank service
Service/fuel station
Sewing machine and vacuum cleaner sales and repair
Shake/shingle production (in rural area)
Sheet metal stamping plant (heavy industry)
Shed maker
Sheep farm (in rural area)
Shipping/receiving/mail service store
Shoe factory (light industry)
Shoe/boot store
Silicone oxide mine & processing facility (in rural area)
Skilled nursing facility (on perimeter)
Skydiving school (at airport)
Slate quarry (in rural area)
Slaughter house (on perimeter)
Small appliance shop
Small engine shop
Soap making shop
Spa w/massage/therapeutic pool, gym, tanning beds, etc
Specialty food shops (tea/coffee/ethnic, etc.)
Spice/seasonings/herbs/flavorings/etc. importer and shop
Spinning/Weaving fabric business (light industry)
Sporting goods/outdoor activity goods factory
Sporting goods/outdoor activity goods store
Stonemason shop/rock/brick installation (light industry)
Storage room facility
Stove/heater/furnace manufacturer (light industry)
Sugar production operation (heavy industry)
Sulfuric Acid production plant (heavy industry)
Sulfur mine (in rural area)
Surveying business
Swimming pool installation (on perimeter)
Swimming pool maintenance
Swine farm – Landrace (in rural area)
Swine farm – Duroc (in rural area)
Talent agency
Tannery (on perimeter)
Tax preparation service
Tea plantation/importer (in rural area)
Tea shop
Television station
Temporary employee service
Tent & awning maker
Textile factory (heavy industry)
Timber forest for lumber production (in rural area)
Timber/sawmill/papermill operation (in rural area)
Tire manufacturer (heavy industry)
Tire shop
Tobacco plantation (in rural area)
Tobacco products production business (in rural area)
Tobacco/smoke shop
Tool & Die shop (light industry)
Tour boats (at port)
Toy & game production (light industry)
Toy & game store
Travel center w/truck stop, hotel, motel, fast food, restaurant, RV dump station, RV hookups, casino
Traveling carnival (fairgrounds)
Traveling circus (fairgrounds)
Trenching/backhoe/dump truck service (light industry)
Trucking company (light industry)
Tug boat service (at port)
Turkey farm (in rural area)
Underground secure records storage facility (in rural area)
Uniform/linen service
Urgent medical care facility (suburbs)
Utility Bobcat service (Bobcats & Toolcats w/attachments for various services) (light industry)
Utility PU truck service (moving/trash/garden supplies/snow plow/deicer/winch/hoist/lift gate/platform hitch)
Utility tractor service (utility tractor w/attachments for disking, mowing, etc.)
Utility truck service (Unimog U500 w/attachments for various services)
Vending machine placement, service, and refilling
Veterinarian hospital – small animal (suburbs)
Veterinary hospital – large animal (in rural area)
Video game/jukebox/gambling machine installation/servicing
Watch/clock manufacturer/repair shop
Water sports park (on perimeter)
Water/soft drink bottling plant (light industry)
Water/soft drink distribution service (light industry)
Wedding chapel
Welding shop (light industry)
Welding supply store (light industry)
Well drilling business (light industry)
Winery/Vineyard (in rural area)
Wood gas generation equipment production (light industry)
Wood shop
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Old 07-30-2013, 08:44 AM
MattB4 MattB4 is offline
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Quite a bit of thought put into your post.

One thing I noticed is a missing step from hunter/gatherer to modern urban dweller, Agriculture. For this you need a source of grain and domesticated animals. Until you reach a point in your civilization that you have a continuous surplus of food, you will be unable to support a excess population that can spend spare time making bricks, shovels, and iPhones.
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Old 07-30-2013, 12:23 PM
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why do people always forget to add the need for a set of rules and regulations and conflict resolution processes for disputes as well as justice system for crimes. this omission hurts attorneys' feelings.
Old 07-30-2013, 02:44 PM
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Jerry D Young Jerry D Young is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bitstream5 View Post
why do people always forget to add the need for a set of rules and regulations and conflict resolution processes for disputes as well as justice system for crimes. this omission hurts attorneys' feelings.
Actually, the third list does include Attorney/Lawyer and Arbitrator/Judiciary.

Because you are right, the there will be a need, eventually, once the community grows past what the local headman/chief/leader/king/whatever can take on and/or understand.

The third list is probably the most evolved of my lists.

Just my opinion.
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Old 07-30-2013, 04:10 PM
ACA1001 ACA1001 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MattB4 View Post
Quite a bit of thought put into your post.

One thing I noticed is a missing step from hunter/gatherer to modern urban dweller, Agriculture. For this you need a source of grain and domesticated animals. Until you reach a point in your civilization that you have a continuous surplus of food, you will be unable to support a excess population that can spend spare time making bricks, shovels, and iPhones.
Yes. I had someone make the point to me at another forum that you have to figure out which crops to plant, then plant them at the proper time of year, work the soil to be able to plant them, and then even if you do all of that right, you are at the mercy of nature. I think I was assuming that they would be able to gather enough vegetation for awhile.
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Old 07-30-2013, 04:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bitstream5 View Post
why do people always forget to add the need for a set of rules and regulations and conflict resolution processes for disputes as well as justice system for crimes. this omission hurts attorneys' feelings.
I didn't forget that. But I didn't think one would be needed for a group of just thirty people. Now if it was three-hundred people, I would have.
Old 07-30-2013, 04:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jerry D Young View Post
As much as I like scenarios like this, I have to agree that the basic parameters are too minimal to make it work, much as the list you gave that came from another forum.

Basically, 30 people, only one of which has the knowledge to accomplish the tasks set out, have to go from pre-human status using at best some natural such as sticks and stone, to stone age tools, and all the way up to early 20th century technology in the matter of a few months. The process can certainly be done. It has been done. wood sticks and stones became knapped tools and wooden devices, and they were used to make easily workable copper tools and they were able to... You can see where this is going.
Just curious, but when has it actually been done? Also, where would people obtain the copper? I was considering adding the creation of electrical generation, electric motors and electrical wiring to the list, but I didn't know how to obtain the copper or the rubber (for insulation).
Old 07-30-2013, 04:28 PM
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Originally Posted by Moccasin View Post
It's a FUN read. The steel in the dog collar was cheating on the part of the author, and I'm a bit dubious about the one grain of corn in the guy's pocket bit. But everything else up to when essential items started mysteriously appearing was very impressive. Robinson Crusoe and the family Robinson had whole ships they could loot; these four men and a boy had to do almost everything from scratch.
I think I might have seen the movie to this when I was very young, if a film was made of it. I loved 20,000 Leagues Under the Sea.

Quote:
Snares. Trap lines. Fishing lines. They can be made from vegetable fibers and laid out to catch things without anyone having to devote further effort until something is caught.
Yes, but would they be able to supply a constant source of food to the group? You'd have to repeatedly set them up all over the place, a certain number would probably fail, etc...

Quote:
Pottery, yes. Bricks, maybe not. You can make them from mud and bake them solid and as long as water is kept from them, as by using a waterproof glaze over a wall built of them, they'll last a long time. Google 'mud brick structures'.
Well from what I've read, once baked solid, mud bricks will hold up against rain as well, unless I missed something.

Quote:
And why wouldn't there be laundering? Ash, animal fat, water, you've got soap; a running stream, a wash machine. Hand operated, but still...

And what are these people wearing, chiffon? Clothes are supposed to last. And even when they wear out, they can be replaced with cloth made of plant fiber. That's what cotton is, after all. Although getting cotton fibers out of the cotton bolls isn't a fun task.
When you say you could replace the clothing with cloth made from plant fiber, do you mean something simple like weaving grass? Because cotton is a plant, yes, but you'd have to be able to grow it first.
Old 07-30-2013, 04:49 PM
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Originally Posted by ACA1001 View Post

Well from what I've read, once baked solid, mud bricks will hold up against rain as well, unless I missed something.
I think that your location is the defining factor on that.

In dry climates I guess what I'd call "amateur bricks" will do fine. That just means that the bricks are handmade without the proper clay, forms, furnace drive belts, etc. of a professional brick manufacturer. It would probably help to apply adobe, but you're probably not looking to make Home and Gardens in a SHTF situation.

We've been having droughty years here now for several years and even then the humidity is pretty darned high. I'm not sure that hand made mud brick would be long lived here in normal weather.

And up north where it freezes I think that any exposed hand made brick would deteriorate really quickly due to frost thaw cycles.

If you have a good roof and a protective drip line any place might be OK.

Exposed is where I think that they will dissolve if they are not made from clay and baked correctly.

YouTube has several interesting videos of hand made brick making in arid places.
Old 07-30-2013, 04:52 PM
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So I know this is highly implausible, but for the sake of discussion, let's say you had a group of around twenty or thirty people, men and women. You end up stranded in a land with absolutely no supplies or tools whatsoever and you're going to be this way for years. ...

So what I want to do is give a list of all the things and knowledge I think one would need to establish a successful colony and re-start civilization. ...
Your list seems unnecessarily complicated, and focused more on how to re-create our current civilization, quickly.
  • Knowledge of how to gather drinking water.
  • Knowledge of how to gather or raise food.
  • Knowledge of how to create basic shelter.
  • Knowledge of how to make and raise kids.
That's all you'd need your thirty people to possess for civilization to reinvent itself. They'll have miserable brutal lives, and it will take a lot of time, but it will happen.
Old 07-30-2013, 05:02 PM
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Just curious, but when has it actually been done? Also, where would people obtain the copper? I was considering adding the creation of electrical generation, electric motors and electrical wiring to the list, but I didn't know how to obtain the copper or the rubber (for insulation).
I was referring to pre-history. When humans became human and began to first use wood and stone as tools, and then shaped wood and stone into more tools. It is speculated that one or more groups of them happened to set up a camp on mineral bearing ground, and when a fire was built and burned for a while, when the coals got hot enough they melted out the high grade copper. When it cooled they were curious and began to do what humans always do when they find something outside their ken, they first mystify it, deitize it, demonize it, and then start using it for whatever practical uses some guy decides to try against the wishes of the clan or tribe. (Sheer speculation on my part, of course.)

But the accidental discovery of easily workable minerals, like that of how to make fires, turned a corner in human development and the copper was used to make tools that were later used to make other metallic objects from other minerals that were plentiful, close to the surface, if not right on the surface, and either nearly pure, or in near perfect alloy with another mineral.

The point being, to get to the point of making a diesel engine, you have to go through stages of working with increasing more difficult to use materials, with more accuracy, than what the original tools are capable of doing themselves. It is, indeed, a wondrous process.

Just my opinion.
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Old 07-30-2013, 06:28 PM
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Your list seems unnecessarily complicated, and focused more on how to re-create our current civilization, quickly.
  • Knowledge of how to gather drinking water.
  • Knowledge of how to gather or raise food.
  • Knowledge of how to create basic shelter.
  • Knowledge of how to make and raise kids.
That's all you'd need your thirty people to possess for civilization to reinvent itself. They'll have miserable brutal lives, and it will take a lot of time, but it will happen.
I don't think that would be enough for civilization to re-invent itself. Humans went for tens of thousands of years in the hunter-gatherer state before developing civilizations, and those civilizations were very limited technologically in many ways. For modern society to re-create itself would require humans to re-figure out political systems, science, mathematics (re-develop calculus for example), etc...proper number symbols would be needed for mathematics as well (try doing calculus with Roman numerals for example), and proper symbols for writing (alphabets as opposed to pictorial writing).

Humans might eventually re-establish industrial civilization, or they might never. However, if the knowledge about mathematics, writing, technology, history, etc...is passed down to children and recorded by our group via books, the ability to advance would be greatly improved.

For example, human societies throughout history could have avoided a whole lot of nasty plagues and diseases if only they'd known about germs, hygiene, and sanitation. Even as late as the late 19th century, there was the practice of bloodletting (which was the most widely practice form of medical care for over two-thousand years), "sweating out" the sickness, etc...basic knowledge of construction, architecture, engineering, sanitation, hygiene, papermaking and printing, etc...I would think could really help prevent humanity from falling back into a period of brute survival.
Old 07-30-2013, 07:18 PM
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Default Glad you added Glass...

But IMHO, I think it should be one of the highest priority items.

With bricks, you could make a forced air furnace. Using leather for the bellows.

The goal is to make containers for distilling water and storage of food and water. You could argue you can do the same with clay. But one thing you can do with clear glass containers is SODIS. Solar Distillation. 6 hours in the Sun to kill all bio contaminants. A huge labor saving technique instead of boiling water for dozens of people on a daily basis.

A few windows wouldn't hurt on the main building. To see enemies approach.

Any maybe lenses to make Telescopes to keep an eye out for hostiles and start fires.


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Old 07-30-2013, 07:38 PM
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Deciding what things or knowledge you need to build a civilization would of course be determined by what you define as a civilization. Personally, if we re-invented civilization to pre-heavy industrial times, say to the 15th century in Europe, but just added simple medicine, sound health and sanitation practices, a good dose of democracy & fair taxes, sexual equality, private weapons ownership for all, and dumped the superstitions, I'd be a happy camper to live in that. Much cleaner air and water, much less noise and stress, a happier, fuller life. Where's my Time Machine when I need it?
Old 07-30-2013, 07:56 PM
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Deciding what things or knowledge you need to build a civilization would of course be determined by what you define as a civilization. Personally, if we re-invented civilization to pre-heavy industrial times, say to the 15th century in Europe, but just added simple medicine, sound health and sanitation practices, a good dose of democracy & fair taxes, sexual equality, private weapons ownership for all, and dumped the superstitions, I'd be a happy camper to live in that. Much cleaner air and water, much less noise and stress, a happier, fuller life. Where's my Time Machine when I need it?
I see a few problems here though:

1) The notion that there would be less stress (noise I can agree with), I don't know if I agree. People have always pined for "the good old days" if you know what I mean.

2) Such a society wouldn't remain that way. It was England's moving towards inclusive political institutions that really paved the way for the industrial revolution to kick off. Countries that did not move towards inclusive political institutions stagnated, because their rulers did not want what they saw as disruptive machinery.

With freedom to invent, education, political freedom, etc...the society would start modernizing.

3) Simple medicine is not a solution if you get seriously injured in a way requiring modern surgery.
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