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Old 06-18-2013, 10:59 AM
FskJester FskJester is offline
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Default Real estate when shtf



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So these days real estate (as a long term investment) is always a good investment. However I'm wondering if I have (let's just say) 60 acres of land and 7 houses on divided plats. When shtf will it be worth anything? I'm wondering if people will still pay you something of value or work off a house or something vs just coming with bigger guns than mine, saying 7 is too many and taking 1 or more? What do you think things will be like?
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Old 06-18-2013, 11:08 AM
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Land will always hold value for many reasons.
Area for grazing.
Area for Cultivation of food
Defensive zones
Ability to deny approach or occupation

There are probably many more I'm missing but those come to mind immediately.
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Old 06-18-2013, 11:14 AM
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It is going to be highly dependent on the actual scenario. In most cases there will still be Rule of Law in effect, and options to continue to collect rent. Might not be a bad idea to put in the lease/rental contract alternative payment methods in case of such situations.

My plan, if I ever get the money to implement it is to have quadraplexes on large corner lots in small towns, with ex-military as live in manager/maintenance. With the live-in manager, even if covering several units in one town, I believe it will be easier to make arrangements to keep people in the units that are both productive and will help defend the place.

The other option I want to incorporate is full or partial ownership of working farms/ranches. Not only is there income potential, by having farm products as part of the payment plan, there should be a pretty good source of continuing, long term food supplies.

Also, having the means to buy up properties during the mid to late times of the disaster, for pennies on the dollar, is an option that might be considered. A bit cold hearted, but with a potential to make quite a bit once things settle down. If they do.

Just having rental properties without pretty constant personal contact, either by the owner or a good manager, with the tenants, isn't going to have much luck collecting rent during the crisis. Collecting it after things settle down are going to be problematical.

Just my opinion.
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Old 06-18-2013, 04:39 PM
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In the event of a full on TEOTWAWKI the people who hold the land will probably be those who can defend it, and all previous ownership contracts will be worthless pieces of paper.

However, I think a good portion of people even on these forums think a full on TEOTWAWKI is not that likely, including me.

I dont know know the answer to this, but you may like to look into how property ownership works in a place like Somalia or some other country where the rule of law is virtually non-existant.
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Old 06-18-2013, 04:50 PM
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I am a land owner and am not so concerned about losing it to people but losing it to the Gov't either through not being able to pay the taxes or outright confiscation. I am in the class of "don't think it will come to it though" If necessary I can see most all of it and can "hit" on almost all of it.
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Old 06-18-2013, 04:57 PM
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In many other countries of the world it is relatively easy to legally lose your land to squatters, who may only have to occupy it a few months before asserting legal claim.

That's not the case here in the U.S., yet...
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Old 06-18-2013, 10:22 PM
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That's why the outer fence is patrolled daily.
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Old 06-18-2013, 10:27 PM
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As has been stated, your land is only yours as long as you can continually defend it...
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Old 06-19-2013, 12:20 AM
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As has been stated, your land is only yours as long as you can continually defend it...
That's true. Once a country takes a Communist turn, which we surely have, nationalism can happen at any time. I suspect it would have already happened if not for the 2nd Amendment and our heavily armed population. We ARE the biggest army in the world!

It would be best to buy land in a state where legislators, law enforcement, and the citizens are mostly on the side of the Constitution. Like ID, WY, TX, AZ, UT. I would avoid buying property in any heavily blue states especially if they are heavily in debt. I'm not pointing any out in particular.... BUT, I would avoid Ca. NY, NJ, and CT and in that order. Like the plague.

But that's just my own paranoid thinking. I am looking to buy land in Idaho where if SHTF the authorities of the state will be more likely to defend my and their rights, more closely, as originally laid out in the Constitution. None of the states are acting in a Constitutional manner these days. But there is definitely 'less' BAD.
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Old 06-19-2013, 12:28 AM
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Originally Posted by lowlife View Post
I am a land owner and am not so concerned about losing it to people but losing it to the Gov't either through not being able to pay the taxes or outright confiscation. I am in the class of "don't think it will come to it though" If necessary I can see most all of it and can "hit" on almost all of it.
That's what they would have said about TSA sexually abusing women and children a few years ago. 'Naw, not here! The men folk would kill them!'
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Old 06-19-2013, 04:03 AM
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No one is going to invade you with big guns. It will be worth the same thing it was before the storm. Assuming you clean it up and weren't stupid enough to build in a flood zone.
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Old 06-19-2013, 08:00 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mogli View Post
That's true. Once a country takes a Communist turn, which we surely have, nationalism can happen at any time. I suspect it would have already happened if not for the 2nd Amendment and our heavily armed population. We ARE the biggest army in the world!

It would be best to buy land in a state where legislators, law enforcement, and the citizens are mostly on the side of the Constitution. Like ID, WY, TX, AZ, UT. I would avoid buying property in any heavily blue states especially if they are heavily in debt. I'm not pointing any out in particular.... BUT, I would avoid Ca. NY, NJ, and CT and in that order. Like the plague.

But that's just my own paranoid thinking. I am looking to buy land in Idaho where if SHTF the authorities of the state will be more likely to defend my and their rights, more closely, as originally laid out in the Constitution. None of the states are acting in a Constitutional manner these days. But there is definitely 'less' BAD.
We are currently in the process of voting with our feet. We live in an incredible area of the beautiful state of California but the politics, firearms laws, and sanctuary cities and state for illegals is driving us out.

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Old 06-19-2013, 11:15 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FskJester View Post
So these days real estate (as a long term investment) is always a good investment. However I'm wondering if I have (let's just say) 60 acres of land and 7 houses on divided plats. When shtf will it be worth anything? I'm wondering if people will still pay you something of value or work off a house or something vs just coming with bigger guns than mine, saying 7 is too many and taking 1 or more? What do you think things will be like?
What could you buy that is 100% guaranteed to not be confiscated or stolen?

The feds wouldn't need the end of the world to take your 60 acres. Maybe they just want to build a school or put in a airport.

What if they raised taxes 1000% every year until you couldn't afford to pay?
What if they put on rent controls so you couldn't charge what you needed to even cover taxes and upkeep?

You never know what would happen. The best we can do is diversify. If 7 homes is 10-25% of your savings it would be a good bet.
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Old 06-19-2013, 10:02 PM
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I love Minnesota but it is swiftly turning into a festering cesspool of greed and corruption. Our Gov is heir to the Dayton fortune, has never held a "real" job and is so out of touch with reality that it is getting harder to live here. Tax the land, tax the sky, tax the businesses as they are evil, tax tax tax, and to make matters worse the Liberal Metro area is growing far faster than outstate.

Find a state with no "real" metro areas or centers of power. Its almost like our brain fries out from the heat of all the pavement when you move to a Metro area.
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Old 06-19-2013, 10:08 PM
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John Gierach once said: if you think you own your land, try not paying your propery taxes, just once.
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Old 06-20-2013, 12:37 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lowlife View Post
I love Minnesota but it is swiftly turning into a festering cesspool of greed and corruption. Our Gov is heir to the Dayton fortune, has never held a "real" job and is so out of touch with reality that it is getting harder to live here. Tax the land, tax the sky, tax the businesses as they are evil, tax tax tax, and to make matters worse the Liberal Metro area is growing far faster than outstate.

Find a state with no "real" metro areas or centers of power. Its almost like our brain fries out from the heat of all the pavement when you move to a Metro area.
AZ gets pretty darn hot, especially in the metro Phoenix area, but we're still (mostly) sane. Maybe it's just so hot that you get used to having a cooked brain.
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Old 06-22-2013, 06:27 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lowlife View Post
I love Minnesota but it is swiftly turning into a festering cesspool of greed and corruption. Our Gov is heir to the Dayton fortune, has never held a "real" job and is so out of touch with reality that it is getting harder to live here. Tax the land, tax the sky, tax the businesses as they are evil, tax tax tax, and to make matters worse the Liberal Metro area is growing far faster than outstate.

Find a state with no "real" metro areas or centers of power. Its almost like our brain fries out from the heat of all the pavement when you move to a Metro area.
sounds like it's about time you moved out of the cities. i hate it there but i have to get down there once every month or so for a couple of days. i love it up here in the arrowhead region. actually, just about anywhere in the northern 1/3 of the state is pretty good except the duluth area has too many people for my tastes.
Old 06-22-2013, 08:15 AM
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A true story from the great depression.

A man was buying lots, building houses, and selling them on land contract. The great depression hit: because his buyers could no longer make their land contract payments, he could not make his own building loan payments, and he lost the entire investment.

This story had a happy ending, of sorts. He did NOT! have a mortgage any longer on his home place, as it had been paid off. He did not lose the home place. So, he bought the small unsalable fruit from the local orange farmers, bottled the juice, and sold it to the local schools to serve inn the cafeterias. His family provided the labor. He lost a lot during the depression, but he did not lose it all.
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Old 06-22-2013, 08:36 AM
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And that's the predicament that those who are wealthy/fortunate enough to own land face. They can lose it through confiscatory taxation, eminent domain, re-zoning, etc. And yet if the government were to implode and we descended into lawlessness, the sheet of paper that says they own it would be worthless also. And no law enforcement, court, etc. would be coming to defend them (feudalistic type scenario, no central government).

Only real solution I see is that you need to be fairly rich. Lacking Allodial Title, you'll have to "pay someone off" in order to keep it. It'll either be the government into perpetuity, a feudal warlord, the mob, landlord, bank, or someone. You can never own it outright in our society. There's always someone with the political/coercive power to demand a cut.

Another thing to ponder is the 50% of people too poor to own property in many large urban areas. If they suddenly quit paying their rent, didn't get their government assistance, or could live in shantytowns for free, this would cause a downward cascade across the whole real estate market. So one of the many things propping up real estate is that people are generally forbidden to live anywhere for free.

Quote:
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I am a land owner and am not so concerned about losing it to people but losing it to the Gov't either through not being able to pay the taxes or outright confiscation. I am in the class of "don't think it will come to it though" If necessary I can see most all of it and can "hit" on almost all of it.
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Old 06-22-2013, 08:50 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FskJester View Post
So these days real estate (as a long term investment) is always a good investment. However I'm wondering if I have (let's just say) 60 acres of land and 7 houses on divided plats. When shtf will it be worth anything? I'm wondering if people will still pay you something of value or work off a house or something vs just coming with bigger guns than mine, saying 7 is too many and taking 1 or more? What do you think things will be like?
During the Great Depression people still needed housing. Coming out of the GD, as soon as there was SS and an assortment of welfare programs, than even the out-of-work had cash flow and were able to pay rent.

Where guns came into play was as farmers defaulted on their mortgages, banks used the courts to legally take back land, and it was the sheriff deputies who used guns to evict the farmers.

Those who stood to profit were the bankers, lawyers and sheriff department.

Once the banks had became land heavy and cash light, each individual in that group [bankers, lawyers, LEOs] were on hand to conveniently buy property for pennies on the dollar.
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