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Old 06-09-2013, 04:42 PM
Jabo Jabo is offline
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Default S&W Governor vs. Taurus Judge



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I cannot make up my mind between the two.
I welcome recommendations/opinions on S&W models vs. Taurus models.
-Reliability
-Quality
-Power
-Ideal for women to be used for home defense AND fun at the range (in addition to existing collection).

Or would you suggest forgetting about both and moving on to something better?

Thanks.

Last edited by Jabo; 06-09-2013 at 04:47 PM.. Reason: grammatical error
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Old 06-09-2013, 04:45 PM
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Forget it. Move on to something more practical and worth the money.
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Old 06-09-2013, 05:15 PM
whirlibird whirlibird is offline
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I know several people with each.
When the Judge first came out, it didn't have ammo specifically for it and it suffered some.

Now with ammo made for the little guns specifically and a better understanding of their use, I have no problem recommending them, although I recommend the Smith long before the Judge for the quality alone.

They are not target guns, but tools. For vermin removal, for defense and for fun.

People complain that the .410 slugs lack penetration and power, and compared to magnum wheelguns, it does. That doesn't mean that it lacks usable power or lacks a punch.

A Governor may not be my first choice but it sure wouldn't be the last. Especially since both .45 Long and .45ACP can be used in it.
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Old 06-11-2013, 10:58 AM
skpotamus skpotamus is offline
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If you are dead set on a .410 pistol, my recommendation is to put both in your hands and see which feels best. I liked the way the judge felt better than the governor, YMMV.



I posted this on another thread, but the .410 is simply NOT a good self defense round and I would recommend you read up on testing data for it before deciding on it's use for self defense.

While I am a fan of the .410 (first deer I ever killed was with a H&R single shot and rabbits were always fun to take with my .410), I feel I must say something to this.

I'm sorry, but the FBI minimum requirements for a handgun is 12" of penetration with 18" preferred. Not the 10" the judge was getting in the tests cited here: http://www.410handguns.com/410_gel_results.html

From the US dept of Justice, FBI report: HANDGUN WOUNDING
FACTORS AND EFFECTIVENESS

Available to download here ( http://www.firearmstactical.com/pdf/fbi-hwfe.pdf )

"It is essential to bear in mind that the single most critical factor remains penetration. While penetration up to 18 inches is preferable, a handgun bullet MUST reliably penetrate 12 inches of soft body tissue at a minimum, regardless of whether it expands or not. If the bullet does not reliably penetrate to these depths, it is not an effective bullet for law enforcement use. ".... "Choosing a bullet because of relatively shallow penetration will seriously compromise weapon effectiveness, and needlessly endanger the lives of the law enforcement officers using it. No law enforcement officer has lost his life because a bullet over penetrated his adversary, and virtually none
have ever been sued for hitting an innocent bystander through an adversary. On the other hand, tragically large numbers of officers have been killed because their bullets did not penetrate deeply enough. "

I would HIGHLY recommend anyone wanting to carry a handgun for self defense read the two paragraphs I copied and pasted from the report linked above, and think carefully about what you choose to carry. It has been documented that officers have lost their lives when their rounds failed to penetrate deeply enough. Would you want to risk your life or the lives of your loved ones on a pet load that doesn't meet those requirements?
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Old 06-11-2013, 11:08 AM
bighanded bighanded is offline
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a tale of 2 Taurus owners.

Owner #1 lives next door, horse farm, bought one for snakes. says he really likes it...although he has never shot it.

Owner #2 showed up at a CWP class with one...I was surprised the instructor let him run with it...the gun folded before the required 50 rds..literally fell apart.
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Old 06-11-2013, 11:13 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NYsurvivalist View Post
Forget it. Move on to something more practical and worth the money.
Exactly, couldn't have put it better myself......so I won't.
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Old 06-11-2013, 11:17 AM
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I would get neither. It may be a good conversation piece or be able to take care of a snake or two, but that's about it.

Either one will be inaccurate due to the tolerances and spacing to allow for both rounds to be chambered, and even then it is only able to shoot the creampuff loads for the 45lc. Plus, the 410 is about useless on anything but snakes and loses a large amount of pattering and energy out of a short handgun barrel. Truly the worst of both worlds.

Plus, the Judge is chunky enough for the hulk to use and I imagine the gov. is probably about the same.

Could get a 357 with the extra cylinder (9mm) and that would allow you to shoot quite a few different types of ammo if that's what you are after.
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Old 06-12-2013, 08:58 AM
whirlibird whirlibird is offline
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What exactly is a creampuff load for a .45 Long?
Even the low velocity cowboy loads so popular with the cass crowd are battle proven. Ever heard of a .455 Webley? And they will penetrate, try it before you bad mouth it.

For years, two of the best rounds available, and they still are, would be hard pressed to make 12" in gelatin.
The 125 gr .357 magnum semi jacketed HP and the Cor-Bon 9mm 115gr jhp both fail the beloved fed standard but still hold enviable street records.
Old 06-12-2013, 09:14 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by whirlibird View Post
What exactly is a creampuff load for a .45 Long?
Even the low velocity cowboy loads so popular with the cass crowd are battle proven. Ever heard of a .455 Webley? And they will penetrate, try it before you bad mouth it.

For years, two of the best rounds available, and they still are, would be hard pressed to make 12" in gelatin.
The 125 gr .357 magnum semi jacketed HP and the Cor-Bon 9mm 115gr jhp both fail the beloved fed standard but still hold enviable street records.
I own a 45 Vaquero. It is a fun little gun to shoot but there is no comparing the ballistics of the hotter loads to most factory loads.
Old 06-12-2013, 01:24 PM
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http://mousegunaddict.blogspot.com/2...125-grain.html

.357 mag, 125 gr averages 14.25" penetration.


"I sent an email to Cor-Bon and asked them how they test it. They answered very promptly and told me the following. (1) They test the 115gr JHP in accordance with the FBI protocol, into 10% ballistic gelatin fired through 4 layers of 10oz denim. (2) Results: average expansion is .65”, penetration 12” to 13”. It passes the FBI test."

"creampuff" 45 colt loads is simple. Factory loads are usually extremely tame because they don't know what gun the loads will be fired in. A lot of old blackpowder guns can't handle a full pressure load like a modern made gun can. So they download the hell out of them.

The 45lc in the judge doesn't meet fbi requirements: http://www.410handguns.com/410_gel_results.html
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Old 06-12-2013, 04:15 PM
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Reliability: I'd trust the Smith more.
Quality: I'd trust the Smith more.
Power: The same, except that the Smith can also use .45 ACP, which allows more options for good hollowpoints etc.
Ideal for women to use for home defense and for fun at the range: Basically equivalent other than the quality issues and .45 ACP factor

It's rather a large gun - which is fine, but whoever uses it should be prepared for that. On the plus side, recoil is mild. It can be louder than most guns due to the short barrel length. Muzzle velocity is not great due to the time the bullet spends in the unrifled chamber combined with the short rifled barrel. Ultimately, I haven't gotten one due to concerns over muzzle velocity.

It would not be my first choice for a home defense handgun (that would be a .45 ACP pistol with a 4" or greater barrel), but it wouldn't be my last choice, either.
Old 06-12-2013, 04:20 PM
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Those little .410 pistols are kinda cool... they just seem to be a solution in search of a problem. There are way better shotguns for home defense and way better pistols for portable personal defense. I suppose they might make a good anti-snake weapon, but for more than $800 there are probably more economical solutions... walking away, for instance.
Old 06-13-2013, 10:16 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by skpotamus View Post
http://mousegunaddict.blogspot.com/2...125-grain.html

.357 mag, 125 gr averages 14.25" penetration.


"I sent an email to Cor-Bon and asked them how they test it. They answered very promptly and told me the following. (1) They test the 115gr JHP in accordance with the FBI protocol, into 10% ballistic gelatin fired through 4 layers of 10oz denim. (2) Results: average expansion is .65”, penetration 12” to 13”. It passes the FBI test."

"creampuff" 45 colt loads is simple. Factory loads are usually extremely tame because they don't know what gun the loads will be fired in. A lot of old blackpowder guns can't handle a full pressure load like a modern made gun can. So they download the hell out of them.

The 45lc in the judge doesn't meet fbi requirements: http://www.410handguns.com/410_gel_results.html
A .45 at 750-800 is more gun than one would expect. Even the old original blackpowder loads and the smokeless loads that followed were proven to shoot through horses, not just bad guys.

And again, looking at the .455 Webley, a .455" bullet at @650, its a proven manstopper, but would never pass the flawed feeb tests, as it doesn't expand.

Just because a particular round doesn't pass the feeb tests doesn't mean it is weak, anemic or ineffective. Again, the reputation of the .357 magnum as the top choice for 25 years came from a round that doesn't pass the feeb tests.The Remington 125gr s-jhp has a proven track record of dead bad guys, coroners reports that involve massive destruction, yet fail the feeb testing.

Testing is all well and good, formulas and criteria handy. But nothing replaces real world results.
And in the real world, big heavy bullets have gotten the job done long before the feds got involved.
Even when the results were like those you got from a Judge or Governor.
Old 06-13-2013, 01:23 PM
skpotamus skpotamus is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by whirlibird View Post
A .45 at 750-800 is more gun than one would expect. Even the old original blackpowder loads and the smokeless loads that followed were proven to shoot through horses, not just bad guys.

And again, looking at the .455 Webley, a .455" bullet at @650, its a proven manstopper, but would never pass the flawed feeb tests, as it doesn't expand.

Just because a particular round doesn't pass the feeb tests doesn't mean it is weak, anemic or ineffective. Again, the reputation of the .357 magnum as the top choice for 25 years came from a round that doesn't pass the feeb tests.The Remington 125gr s-jhp has a proven track record of dead bad guys, coroners reports that involve massive destruction, yet fail the feeb testing.

Testing is all well and good, formulas and criteria handy. But nothing replaces real world results.
And in the real world, big heavy bullets have gotten the job done long before the feds got involved.
Even when the results were like those you got from a Judge or Governor.
I respectfully disagree
Anecdotal stories from the olden days of relatively weak rounds passing straight through a mountain don't impress me. Likewise, neither do anecdotal stories of people absorbing hundreds of rounds of highly potent rounds and walking away from them. Stories are stories. How much truth there is in them is unknown. You hear stories about how great the .45colt is, going through horses and men, but then there are also stories of the .455 webley outperforming it in penetration. So the same bullet going 2/3 the speed could penetrate farther? See what I mean about stories?

I just posted that the 125 grain .357 mag passes the FBI test. So not sure what you mean about it failing. The FBI criteria doesn't contain anything about expansion at all, it concerns are primarily in making sure the rounds can penetrate deep enough to tear up the vital organs and shut someone down as fast as possible.

I do agree with you that if the scientific evidence doesn't mirror real world data, then the scientific data is flawed. So show me the self defense shooting data concerning a judge or governor. So far, what I've seen and read is all scientific data, and that data says the .410 rounds in a handgun aren't good enough to reliably put someone down.
Your argument that big, heavy rounds have been proven to be reliable is not something I can argue with. however, you seem to think the .410 pistols are shooting big, heavy rounds. In fact, they are not. 000 buck shot is .36" in diameter and weighs in at a whopping 68 grains. This is 1/4 the weight of the rounds you used as examples (webley and colt). It is in fact, almost the exact size as the .32 automatic round, which is not considered to be a superior manstopper.

Now, if you're gonna load up a .45lc and carry it, more power to ya. I was referring to the .410 in my posts, not the .45lc. However, be aware that you lose a lot of velocity and accuracy in the cylinder jump. The bullet has to travel about an inch and a half before it gets to the barrel.
Old 06-13-2013, 11:22 PM
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Whenever you discuss the Governor or Judge, I think some people assume all anybody will shoot out of it is .410.

Both also shoot .45 Colt. The Governor also shoots .45 ACP.

I think a lot of people value the versatility.
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Old 06-13-2013, 11:50 PM
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I am a Taurus Judge owner and IMO move on unless you plan to use this as a novelty/range toy or snake gun.

There are better 45LC guns out there that are more accurate, which is the only thing I would use against two legged predators as the 410 shells made for the judge have been shown to be very ineffective at meeting FBI minimum standards.

If the wife needs a home defense shotgun look at low recoil rounds in 12ga or 20ga.
Old 06-26-2013, 03:34 PM
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Everyone, thank you for the excellent responses and links. Since I’m fairly new to using this forum, I’m grateful to the knowledge and diverse feedback.
Old 06-26-2013, 05:02 PM
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I own the Governor and love it.

Sure I don't CC it, nor is it my nightstand gun, nor is the .410 shell out of it worth a damn....but it can shoot four different types of ammo and thats what did it for me.

Though I am not married, have no kids ,and have some disposible income. If it were my first gun, or my only gun, I would not have bought it. But I like it for what it is. And a preformance .45lc round gives a pretty good kick.


YMMV
Old 06-26-2013, 06:30 PM
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Dear Sally,

Get whichever one looks best with your rollerskates.


Sincerely,

Mesa
Old 06-26-2013, 07:49 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jabo View Post
I cannot make up my mind between the two.
I welcome recommendations/opinions on S&W models vs. Taurus models.


Or would you suggest forgetting about both and moving on to something better?

Thanks.
Precisely.

For that size and weight, you can get a full-sized self-defense pistol with as much or more stopping power (speaking of .410 loadings, even the exotic ones), greater capacity, faster reloads and less risk of an errant pellet.

And that's just for starters.

Check out the Box of Truth about (lack of) penetration as well.

If you have one, load it with .45 Colt.

John
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