Survivalist Forum

Advertise Here

Go Back   Survivalist Forum > Firearms and Other Weapons Forum > Military Weapons Forum
Articles Chat Room Classifieds Donations Gallery Groups Links Store Survival Files



Military Weapons Forum AR15, AK47, SKS, H&K, Galil, CETME, FN/FAL, Tanks, Ships, Jets, Helicopters....

Advertise Here
Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 03-19-2013, 02:24 PM
Unobtanium's Avatar
Unobtanium Unobtanium is online now
Survivor
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Louisiana, re-locating soon
Age: 28
Posts: 6,447
Thanks: 2,064
Thanked 4,974 Times in 2,610 Posts
Default Rubber City Armory BCG



Advertise Here

http://www.rubbercityarmory.com/index.php
3/14/13
I purchased one of these. I did so only after about a 30 minute conversation with one of the company technical guru's. He answered ALL of my questions, and did NOT side-step anything or "weasel-word" or anything of the sort. I was very impressed. I also asked if this information could be disclosed. I was told that yes, it could. Here is a summary:


-The bolts are mil-spec hardness. QPQ is a heat-treat in and of itself, and multiple mil-spec phosphate bolts were cut into many pieces and the hardness at various depths was measured. The QPQ process RCA uses causes a RC hardness that EXACTLY mirrors the mil-spec case-hardening method at EVERY POINT AND DEPTH on the bolt. The same was done with the carrier. This is the culmination of 2 years of work. RCA is NOT some company that said "Hey, we can nitride this thing and turn it black! WOOT!"

-Currently, Colt has tested the BCG. They did not have a mechanical failure of it in 5,000+ rounds per RCA's Facebook page (I was told 10,000).

-Another company has tested the BCG to roughly 8500 rounds without failure.

-RCA has run the bolt/carrier for 1,000 rounds, full-auto, suppressed, dry, and will post a video at a later date. No failure of the BCG or weapon.

-To-date, noone has had a mechanical failure of this product. That said, with the cost of ammunition currently, test-data is limited, with many companies testing them having put only 1,000-4,500 rounds through them. There is no miraculous 100K round-count story at present or anything of the sort.

Everything about this BCG, has been thought about. Every tiny single nit-pick heat-treat, dimensional, whatever detail. Right down to the use of the RTV type sealant (It's not RTV, I just don't know the name of it) that so-many companies leave out.

Is it a miracle product? No. RCA also recommended that I lubricate it, as well. It's not billed as "run dry". It will run BETTER DRY than some others, but it is not meant to be some lubeless wonder.

I view this as a product evolution, just as melonite has began surpassing chrome-lining in some manufacturer's barrel production.


*Disclosure: I am a previous customer of H&M, who is the parent of RCA. I had a P226 Elite ST QPQ'ed by them about 4 years back. I spoke with the same person today, as I did then. This is not some "upstart" company who is "learning as they go".

3/19/13
My BCG just showed up. It's literally a work of art.

The good:

All of the surfaces are VERY "clean". The bolt articulated within the carrier much more easily than many of the new phosphate/chrome-lined BCG's I have from companies like Noveske, etc. The finish looks great, and feels "slick", but oil does not "bead" or "run off". You can still run this thing "wet" if that's how you prefer (I do, personally). The staking is text-book and appears very well done via compression and not impact (less chance of shearing a bolt, impact staking causes this, sometimes). I noted what appears to be a bit of "run-off" from the sealant that the TDP calls for to be placed beneath the gas-key. RCA is literally one of the only companies I know that does this. The run-off was inconsequential and did not require removal. Calling it run-off gives it a negative connotation that I don't like, because I don't view it negatively, but I just don't know what else to call it, what I glimpsed when looking under the goose-neck of the gas-key where it presses against the body of the carrier. Total non-issue, and I was glad to see it! Props, RCA!

The neutral:

I would like to see MPI somehow denoted on the bolt, and batch-testing changed to individual testing. I know that batch-testing MPI meets the mil-spec requirement, and that there is much debate that HPT indeed can cause a weakening of the bolt and shortening of its life, up to 25%, without showing in the subsequent MPI test, so I am not so big on HPT, but for $250, I think individual MPI testing would be nice, although I do not know the price impact/current profit margins. I noticed that everything had "ridges" on non-sliding surfaces. I checked the bolt, and it did, as well. I looked at my other bolts from Noveske, and they did not. Keep in mind, I said "non-sliding surfaces". The cam-pin, where the gas-rings ride, etc. do not show this machining characteristic, and I do NOT think it will interfere with anything. On most BCG's, the ridges on the carrier are likely covered by phosphate. I have seen them on the inside of carriers on the tail-end, as well as visible "through" the chrome-lining, and this carrier exhibits less than that. It is very "clean". The bolt, on the other hand, exhibits these machine characteristics moreso than other bolts I have seen, but is perfectly smooth on the tail, bolt-face, and the "ring" that rides in the BCG. Again, considering the longevity testing done by Colt and others on RCA products, I do not feel that this is an issue of durability or wear, but rather a cosmetic observation of no meaningful import. Hence "neutral".

The bad:

The only negative I have to comment upon is the use of a unique extractor spring. It is 4-coil, the bottom coil is not flat-ground on the bottom, and it is accompanied by a plumb-colored O-ring that felt very hard compared to the CRANE O-rings I have. I promptly ditched it for the Colt "Gold" spring which is currently what is spec'ed for all M4/M16 weapons from the MK18 to the A4. I ditched it without even trying it, because I do not run any "unknowns" that I do not have to. I did a lot of talking with H&M about their BCG before I decided to purchase their product, as it is unique, and it has benefits that I appreciate, but I cannot see any benefit what-so-ever from running a unique extractor spring of unknown origin in it, and thus replaced it. You may opt to leave yours in situe, and it may serve you well. I simply removed the unknown and went with a known.

My personal course of action and expectations:

This BCG will be going in my 300 BLK MK18 as soon as Daniel Defense delivers it, and I am purchasing several more for christmas gifts (sadly delayed due to the tragedy in Newtown, and the subsequent lack of BCG's in stock). I will evaluate them in numerous weapons over the course of the next year, and am curious if they become "the new PMAG"---as in---the new standard for performance. I personally expect identical performance to my current BCG's, with the exception of easier cleaning and greater corrosion resistance. I have seen rust on my personal BCG's (and discontinued using the lubricant I was using at the time because of it), and this item just gives me more security. One of the primary failures of the M4 bolt is from fracture at the cam-pin hole, and any stress risers or inclusions (rust) can lead to a shortened life-span. Also, cam-pin wear should be reduced. Cam-pin wear can lead to tolerance stacking and added stress on the cam-pin hole. Further, I think that due to the "slicker" finish that carbon and grit will be less likely to build up on the surface of the bolt-stem, and firing-pin, as well as the carrier portion that the FP passes through. I have not seen a carrier bind in an upper, but I have seen the bolt require so much force to articulate and the FP drag so much on carbon, that this caused an issue. I do NOT think that this BCG should be run dry, but I do think that the surface treatment may allow longer service intervals between lubrication events. I would recommend running it sopping wet, like any other BCG in the M4 family.
The Following 6 Users Say Thank You to Unobtanium For This Useful Post:
Old 03-19-2013, 09:04 PM
Rockyriver's Avatar
Rockyriver Rockyriver is offline
Ham Technician
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: N.C.
Posts: 2,673
Thanks: 1,706
Thanked 4,147 Times in 1,406 Posts
Default

As of right now i'm in the market for 4 BCG's, However i'm holding tight till either one of the major makers release them for sale at a decent price or I find someone sitting on some BCG's they will sale at a decent price. Of course they would have to be Colt,BCM,Spikes,etc,etc.
I've done went down the road of off brand BCG's and after a few hundred rounds have bolt troubles. Here's an example of one of my bargain bolts, Notice the back of the lugs are wearing.

ETA: The Rubber City Armory BCG's are excellant BCG's and not a fly by night BCG.
Other than price I like them after seeing them in person and watching them run.
$250 is way to much, keep them under $200 and maybe I will buy one.





The Following User Says Thank You to Rockyriver For This Useful Post:
Old 03-19-2013, 09:53 PM
Tokarev 40 Tokarev 40 is offline
Hunter
 
Join Date: May 2012
Posts: 1,508
Thanks: 2,317
Thanked 1,375 Times in 664 Posts
Default

Thanks for the write up. What's the going price for these BCG's? I'll probably replace the ones I have in a couple of builds I'm doing now. The uppers I got came with mil-spec BCG's, but it's always nice to upgrade when feasible.
Old 03-19-2013, 11:04 PM
Unobtanium's Avatar
Unobtanium Unobtanium is online now
Survivor
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Louisiana, re-locating soon
Age: 28
Posts: 6,447
Thanks: 2,064
Thanked 4,974 Times in 2,610 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rockyriver View Post
As of right now i'm in the market for 4 BCG's, However i'm holding tight till either one of the major makers release them for sale at a decent price or I find someone sitting on some BCG's they will sale at a decent price. Of course they would have to be Colt,BCM,Spikes,etc,etc.
I've done went down the road of off brand BCG's and after a few hundred rounds have bolt troubles. Here's an example of one of my bargain bolts, Notice the back of the lugs are wearing.





Colt Defense has tested the product and is in the process of negotiating procurement of them.
There are currently about 2-3,000 of these BCG's "out", including test units sent to several major companies, and noone has managed to have a mechanical failure, yet. The highest round-count I am aware of is about 8500, though, so it's not being sold as a miracle product, but it doesn't seem to have any flaws yet that I am aware of.

What brand of bolt is that!?

ETA: I researched it, and you got a China-made "gunshow" bolt. Yeah, of course it sucked. The bolts that are in the RCA BCG are made from C158, shot-peeneed, and QPQ'ed to mirror mil-spec hardness. RCA spent 2 years with microscopes and other tools cutting up numerous Mil-Spec bolts, and testing the hardness of the bolt-face, lugs, core, surface of lugs, body, and every other part of the bolt at every depth. They have perfected the length and temperature of the QPQ process they use to mirror these levels of hardness. This is not some "Hey, we can nitride it and make it black and someone will buy it!" operation. RCA is a holding of H&M. In fact, I deal with the same person at RCA, as I did when I dealt with H&M. They do lots of work for companies, and have been doing this kind of thing for over 6 decades.

*I have no affiliation with H&M or RCA other than being a purchaser (in small quantity for personal use/gifts) of their products.
Old 03-19-2013, 11:04 PM
Unobtanium's Avatar
Unobtanium Unobtanium is online now
Survivor
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Louisiana, re-locating soon
Age: 28
Posts: 6,447
Thanks: 2,064
Thanked 4,974 Times in 2,610 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tokarev 40 View Post
Thanks for the write up. What's the going price for these BCG's? I'll probably replace the ones I have in a couple of builds I'm doing now. The uppers I got came with mil-spec BCG's, but it's always nice to upgrade when feasible.
$265 shipped, IIRC.
The Following User Says Thank You to Unobtanium For This Useful Post:
Old 05-05-2013, 03:38 PM
attila. attila. is offline
Newbie
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Posts: 20
Thanks: 13
Thanked 12 Times in 5 Posts
Default

$200 each right now via their website and discount code "ar15fans"

$12.50 shipping

enjoy!
Old 05-05-2013, 09:23 PM
attila. attila. is offline
Newbie
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Posts: 20
Thanks: 13
Thanked 12 Times in 5 Posts
Default

nevermind... they went out of stock fast. though discount code could work later too, so this info might still be useful.
Old 05-08-2013, 12:07 PM
Unobtanium's Avatar
Unobtanium Unobtanium is online now
Survivor
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Louisiana, re-locating soon
Age: 28
Posts: 6,447
Thanks: 2,064
Thanked 4,974 Times in 2,610 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by attila. View Post
$200 each right now via their website and discount code "ar15fans"

$12.50 shipping

enjoy!
Very nice! I missed out on this one, having ordered the last 3 BCG's I needed from them about a week and a half ago. Christmas presents are completed, gonna have some happy friends now that I can deliver their uppers!
Old 05-09-2013, 12:52 PM
attila. attila. is offline
Newbie
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Posts: 20
Thanks: 13
Thanked 12 Times in 5 Posts
Default

These just arrived yesterday!!!

I just spoke with Chris at RCA and it turns out my order was right on the edge of the transition between new and old versions of the BCG
1. They are changing machinists
2. Gas Keys are going to billet from mil-spec forged
3. New bolts are going to be lightly nitrided to ensure not disrupting the mil-spec heat treatment of the C158 (finish being dark grey instead of pure black is noticeable, but not detrimental)
4. New bolts have "radiused" lugs (looks more chamfered i'd say, but i'm picky about words )
5. New firing pins are being nitrided vice chromed for extra hardness, strenght, etc... (ETA: these firing pins will be avail at brownells shortly i think)


The old BCGs aint bad, the new and future ones are getting better!

These are the things I was told over the phone by Chris, as well as having a great cust service experience with RCA.

So here are some pics of the 2 RCAs I got yesterday:



Old 05-09-2013, 07:10 PM
Unobtanium's Avatar
Unobtanium Unobtanium is online now
Survivor
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Louisiana, re-locating soon
Age: 28
Posts: 6,447
Thanks: 2,064
Thanked 4,974 Times in 2,610 Posts
Default

Of special interest to me is the reason for altering the QPQ of the bolt, and the radius-ing of the lugs. I was under the impression that exacting science had gone into the QPQ temp. of the bolt, already...
Old 05-10-2013, 01:06 AM
markadpr markadpr is offline
Newbie
 
Join Date: May 2013
Posts: 6
Thanks: 0
Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post
Default

the major makers release them for sale at a decent price or I find someone sitting on some BCG's they will sale at a decent price
Old 05-11-2013, 10:51 AM
attila. attila. is offline
Newbie
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Posts: 20
Thanks: 13
Thanked 12 Times in 5 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Unobtanium View Post
Of special interest to me is the reason for altering the QPQ of the bolt, and the radius-ing of the lugs. I was under the impression that exacting science had gone into the QPQ temp. of the bolt, already...
well, yes, it is an exacting science, but the problem is that the salt bath nitriding takes place at ~1076F. Thats quite hot and could possibly ruin the heat treat of the milspec bolt. that's done in accordance with other exacting sciences and the two must not conflict to yield a good product. RCA has thus reduced the degree to which the bolts are melonited. Of course, i am not in the industry and haven't done enough reading on it to be infallable, but this is how i understand it. here is some "light" reading about one company's use of melonite QPQ process.

http://www.northeastcoating.com/SaltBathNitriding_1.htm
Old 05-11-2013, 10:58 AM
attila. attila. is offline
Newbie
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Posts: 20
Thanks: 13
Thanked 12 Times in 5 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by markadpr View Post
the major makers release them for sale at a decent price or I find someone sitting on some BCG's they will sale at a decent price
not sure what you're trying to say... major makers are releasing them as they become available...
if you only want to spend $100 on a BCG, put up an ad on the forums you frequent for "$100 for your old/cheap/used BCG please" if you can't stomach spending a tad more ($150-200) for a product that is hard to come by, but is indeed available (if you look for it), then that's gonna be your only option. or you could just be vigilant and snag deals when they pop up.
Old 05-26-2013, 04:45 AM
Unobtanium's Avatar
Unobtanium Unobtanium is online now
Survivor
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Louisiana, re-locating soon
Age: 28
Posts: 6,447
Thanks: 2,064
Thanked 4,974 Times in 2,610 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by attila. View Post
well, yes, it is an exacting science, but the problem is that the salt bath nitriding takes place at ~1076F. Thats quite hot and could possibly ruin the heat treat of the milspec bolt. that's done in accordance with other exacting sciences and the two must not conflict to yield a good product. RCA has thus reduced the degree to which the bolts are melonited. Of course, i am not in the industry and haven't done enough reading on it to be infallable, but this is how i understand it. here is some "light" reading about one company's use of melonite QPQ process.

http://www.northeastcoating.com/SaltBathNitriding_1.htm
Rca told me that the qpq serves as the heat treat, vs. Being done "over" that process.
Old 06-05-2013, 02:01 PM
Unobtanium's Avatar
Unobtanium Unobtanium is online now
Survivor
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Louisiana, re-locating soon
Age: 28
Posts: 6,447
Thanks: 2,064
Thanked 4,974 Times in 2,610 Posts
Default

RCA has changed how they stake the gas-key. I am hoping it is a temporary thing.

Old 06-05-2013, 02:19 PM
kev's Avatar
kev kev is offline
Forum Administrator
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: East Texas
Age: 46
Posts: 14,910
Thanks: 1,729
Thanked 32,860 Times in 6,833 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Unobtanium View Post
RCA has changed how they stake the gas-key. I am hoping it is a temporary thing.
Is that even considered staking?

It looks like the "staking" is not going to do anything to prevent the bolt from backing out.
Old 06-05-2013, 02:23 PM
Unobtanium's Avatar
Unobtanium Unobtanium is online now
Survivor
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Louisiana, re-locating soon
Age: 28
Posts: 6,447
Thanks: 2,064
Thanked 4,974 Times in 2,610 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by kev View Post
Is that even considered staking?

It looks like the "staking" is not going to do anything to prevent the bolt from backing out.
To say I am disappointed is an understatement. Here is my old RCA BCG:
The Following User Says Thank You to Unobtanium For This Useful Post:
Old 06-05-2013, 02:28 PM
kev's Avatar
kev kev is offline
Forum Administrator
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: East Texas
Age: 46
Posts: 14,910
Thanks: 1,729
Thanked 32,860 Times in 6,833 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Unobtanium View Post
To say I am disappointed is an understatement. Here is my old RCA BCG:
Now that is more like it.

Looks like their quality control is slipping a little bit.
Old 06-05-2013, 02:29 PM
Unobtanium's Avatar
Unobtanium Unobtanium is online now
Survivor
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Louisiana, re-locating soon
Age: 28
Posts: 6,447
Thanks: 2,064
Thanked 4,974 Times in 2,610 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by kev View Post
Now that is more like it.

Looks like their quality control is slipping a little bit.
It's not so much QC, as it is, a different person is doing that with different tools, and they didn't view it as an issue. Hopefully their stance changes. The BCG itself looks to be more nicely machined, if possible. This staking is the only fly in the ointment.
The Following User Says Thank You to Unobtanium For This Useful Post:
Old 06-05-2013, 02:34 PM
rubeixcube's Avatar
rubeixcube rubeixcube is offline
If I kill I eat it
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: lake st. louis
Posts: 837
Thanks: 3,570
Thanked 473 Times in 298 Posts
Default

Oh crap,that doesnot look good boss.
Reply

Bookmarks

Tags
ar-15 bolt carrier, ar-15 parts, ar-15 spare parts, bolt carrier, bolt carrier group, rubber city, rubber city bolt carrier, rubber city bolt carrier group



Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
rubber buckshot? 97guns Shotgun Forum 39 10-12-2012 08:48 AM
Rubber Fin Rocket Kirktac52 Non-Lethal Weapons & Self Defense 0 02-17-2012 06:57 PM
Movie: Rubber REM Books, Movies & Stories 6 12-11-2011 08:34 AM
Rubber Tape Vic Vehicles & Transportation 0 08-18-2008 04:28 AM
Rubber Bullets TxIronWolf Firearms General Discussion 4 12-26-2007 06:39 AM


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 09:20 PM.


Powered by vBulletin®
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Copyright Kevin Felts 2006 - 2012,
Green theme by http://www.themesbydesign.net