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Old 01-30-2013, 01:04 AM
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Thumbs up Pistol caliber carbine...



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In the past, I basically accepted the argument from others that pistol caliber carbines were about as worthless as tits on a bull. Then I got this for Christmas from my wife.



Initially I was enamored by the history of the thing. It's made by IBM in 1943, and I'm sure it would tell some stories if it could talk. I watched some videos on its history and that’s when I realized that this gun has enormous potential as a practical tool for a SHTF. Since sighting it in and running a few boxes of ammo through it, it’s basically moved to the front of my gun safes pecking order for a SHTF PDW. Here’s why.

I learned why the military designed the M1 carbine. The military found that a battle rifle and accompanying ammunition were overly cumbersome for support troops. They wanted a light, handy weapon for soldiers whose primary job wasn’t being a combat rifleman, but they may end up in a scrape and need to defend themselves at reasonable ranges. We’re talking about mortar crews, truck drivers, radiomen, etc.

I thought, “Hey, that’s exactly what I was looking for in a SHTF rifle.” I’m visualizing a SHTF where ROL has broken down a bit and where I’m at in the country is not policed. Crime is up and there may even be roving gang issues. I’m not a combat soldier looking to engage in war. If I were in that situation, a battle or assault rifle, armor vest and loads of spare ammo is hands down the way to go. I’m a survivalist who has a lot of day to day responsibilities, and may need a rifle handy to defend myself or take an opportunity shot at a deer. My primary job isn’t combat, in fact it’s avoiding combat if at all possible. If I had to fight, I would need a rifle to defend myself and/or extract myself. So basically, I want an effective rifle I can walk around with on my back, all day….every day, and still get my chores done. Bottom line, so long as it’s effective at personal defense, the lighter and handier, the better. Enter M1 carbine.

It’s about 5 pounds and the length of a yard stick. To put it into perspective, it’s roughly the same size/weight as a Ruger 10-22. I have no idea how they did that, but they did. It’s about 2 pounds lighter than my M4 (which I thought was a pretty light, handy rifle until I handled the M1 carbine). It shoots a 110 grain bullet that leaves the muzzle at about 2000 FPS. So it basically offers the same ballistics as a .357 magnum from a rifle barrel. I’ve been told that at 200 yards, it hits with the same power factor as a 9MM at the muzzle. Right here, I know some of you anti-pistol caliber carbine guys are rolling your eyes. Remember, it’s a PDW not battle rifle. I’m sure you believe a .357 magnum is ample protection for home defense right?

Anyhow, I have no doubt that with soft point ammo it will be able to punch clean through an entire car, side to side through the doors with power to spare, or down a nice sized buck. I’ve zeroed it at 100 yards and its pie plate accurate. At 200 yards I find it minute of man accurate. Bottom line, if you’re within 200 yards, I own you with this rifle and if my problem is beyond 200 yards, I’m getting the @#!*% out of there so who cares. Remember. I’m not a soldier, I’m a survivalist.

So all in all, this rifle has changed my opinion and perspective on pistol caliber carbines for PDWs in a SHTF. I get it now. I’m not trying to change anyone else’s mind on the issue, but if you haven’t picked one of these up yet, don’t be put off by others opinions until you try it yourself. I’m not just focused on the M1 carbine either, but similar weapons platforms such as lever action trapper guns in .357 or .44 mag, Kel-tec sub-2000s, etc. These guys are onto something. They ain’t the perfect gun for everything, but I believe they have a more useful roll for survivalists as PDWs than a lot of people give them credit for.
Old 01-30-2013, 02:08 AM
Rdrasj Rdrasj is offline
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Good points Will. I like to consolidate calibers and live in an area where large bore revolvers are needed for four legged critters so for ahwile I carried a ruger .44 carbine and a ruger .44 revolver since then I have transitioned into a ruger .454 casull revolver and a Rossi .454 rifle.

I can shoot the same round through both weapons and can load my .45 LC rounds for about 8 cents a round and just a tad more for the magnum rounds, a wax cap and some donated shotgun pellets also bring down grouse with no problem.
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Old 01-20-2014, 07:13 AM
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Just checking back a year later. I'm surprised this thread never went anywhere. As an update, I've standardized the M1 carbine as my families primary personal defense weapon. I love this weapon! On the down side, I should mention that every single WWII M1 carbine I've bought has needed some work to get it back into fighting form, and they aren't cheap.
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Old 01-20-2014, 07:27 AM
drt4life drt4life is offline
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M1 Carbine is a good close up handy rifle.....you need to try shooting through a car......won't happen.....a lot larger calibers won't.....take a power window motor and try shooting through it with a Carbine soft point round......the side impact crash bar in modern cars will stop a lot of rounds, not to mention all the other stuff in a door bullet will have to penetrate....I owned an Inland M1 Carbine for a couple years and shot it a lot.
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Old 01-20-2014, 07:32 AM
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Zombie thread! That's funny that this thread is a year old, I could have sworn you and I discussed the PCC at length much more recently than that! I thought for a minute you had amnesia and started a new thread on this topic.

I respect your thought process on this topic but as you know I have a different opinion on the topic and use rifle caliber carbines to fill this role in my SHTF arsenal but you have just about sold me on the M1 Carbine. I love that gun, my buddy owns one and I really like the feel of it. Very handy, light and maneuverable. As a bonus, I can see a wood stocked M1 carbine being much less intimidating and drawing less attention then a tricked out black rifle like an AR or AK which is a good thing when you are trying to keep a low profile. The only thing keeping me from buying one is that I'm very OCD when it comes to caliber standardization and .30 carbine is not a caliber I stock!
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Old 01-20-2014, 08:12 AM
Marlin94 Marlin94 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by drt4life View Post
M1 Carbine is a good close up handy rifle.....you need to try shooting through a car......won't happen.....a lot larger calibers won't.....take a power window motor and try shooting through it with a Carbine soft point round......the side impact crash bar in modern cars will stop a lot of rounds, not to mention all the other stuff in a door bullet will have to penetrate....I owned an Inland M1 Carbine for a couple years and shot it a lot.
I saw this on Tac TV a few weeks ago where they shot a car with the 223 and the round didnt make it all the way through. Went in one door and never came out the second. The shot it again with a 308 and it went through both doors but there was nothing left of it when it came out the second. 338 went through both doors and was still very lethal.

I am a huge fan of the 357 revolver/ lever action combo. However I have tried shooting through a 4" log with the 357 magnum and it didn't make it through so I know these rounds are lethal but not the best penetrators on solid objects.
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Old 01-20-2014, 08:20 AM
homelandsecurityham homelandsecurityham is offline
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Enjoy it. I am sure that it will not let you down when you need it. Keep up the interest in it. Just FYI the military did NOT design it. A prisoner in prison that came to be known as "Carbine Williams" designed it, and the military adopted it, it was that good! There is actually a movie about the story. Like the 1911 the M1 carbine was made by many company's like: IBM, Iver Jonson, Plainfield, Universal, and MS Safari Arms.

Carbine Williams (1952) - IMDb
www.imdb.com/title/tt0044480 Cached
This is the story of David Marshall 'Marsh' Williams, the real life inventor of the world famous M-1 Carbine automatic rifle used in WWII.

Enjoy
Cliff
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Old 01-20-2014, 08:36 AM
Preacherboy Preacherboy is online now
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Pistol caliber weapons definately have their place in this world. My wife has a 9mm AR and I've purchased 2 USGI m1 carbines for my daughter (along with a Ruger Single Action in .30 carbine).

For my shooting pleasure I own a .44mag lever action. Those m1's will be used as personal defense tools by people who are recoil sensative and who aren't experienced shooters, meaning they do not need 30 rd magazines.
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Old 01-20-2014, 12:13 PM
Glock19 RTF Glock19 RTF is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Marlin94 View Post
I saw this on Tac TV a few weeks ago where they shot a car with the 223 and the round didnt make it all the way through. Went in one door and never came out the second. The shot it again with a 308 and it went through both doors but there was nothing left of it when it came out the second. 338 went through both doors and was still very lethal.

I am a huge fan of the 357 revolver/ lever action combo. However I have tried shooting through a 4" log with the 357 magnum and it didn't make it through so I know these rounds are lethal but not the best penetrators on solid objects.
Tac TV is great I've learned a lot watching it. It changed my opinion on the 5.7. The P90 or M1 carbine are weapons meant as PDW for support troops. For people who have little training they are handy and they will have them on their person as they would a handgun and they can shoot them a lot better than they can a handgun with a similar amount of training.

His test using his director really made that clear. Larry cleared the course of fire with a handgun in roughy 6 seconds and with the P90 in 5 seconds. His director cleared course with a handgun in somewhere around 15 seconds while it only took him 6 or 7 with the P90.
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Old 01-20-2014, 07:09 PM
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Let me tell you, the super adjile control of a pistol caliber carbine makes up all of the difference. A bore sighted 9mm AR15 with an EOTECH! Its going to sting fast and hard.
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Old 01-20-2014, 08:05 PM
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I just recently got an m1 carbine. Fantastic weapon if you don't plan on fighting on the Hindenburg line.

Small (smaller than the 10/22 for sure), light, almost idiot proof simple, and can dish out alot of lead. Buzzkill is right as far as being intimidating. Definatly doesn't have that evil black rifle stigma.

If I had to choose between my beretta 92fs or the carbine for home defence or a bug out scenario, it wouldn't be a contest. But both would be nice
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Old 01-20-2014, 08:08 PM
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And 30Carbine isn't really a pistol round. There is the automag and ruger blackhawk, but isn't nearly as common as 9mm or 45 handguns/carbines.
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Old 01-20-2014, 08:09 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OliverR. View Post
I just recently got an m1 carbine. Fantastic weapon if you don't plan on fighting on the Hindenburg line.

Small (smaller than the 10/22 for sure), light, almost idiot proof simple, and can dish out alot of lead. Buzzkill is right as far as being intimidating. Definatly doesn't have that evil black rifle stigma.

If I had to choose between my beretta 92fs or the carbine for home defence or a bug out scenario, it wouldn't be a contest. But both would be nice
I'm with you. I have the evil black rifles but I love my revolvers and lever action
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Old 01-20-2014, 08:27 PM
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Your a lucky man to have a wife to get you such a gift. That is a fine weapon.
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Old 01-20-2014, 08:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OliverR. View Post
And 30Carbine isn't really a pistol round. There is the automag and ruger blackhawk, but isn't nearly as common as 9mm or 45 handguns/carbines.
.30CAL is a pistol type round. But, it holds it's own in there with 7.62X25, 9mm and, .45CAL. Plenty sufficient to operate in a carbine system.
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Old 01-20-2014, 08:39 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WILL View Post
Just checking back a year later. I'm surprised this thread never went anywhere. As an update, I've standardized the M1 carbine as my families primary personal defense weapon. I love this weapon! On the down side, I should mention that every single WWII M1 carbine I've bought has needed some work to get it back into fighting form, and they aren't cheap.
I would change every spring on it. Then you won't have to worry about it for another 50 years. I would also purchase an original bayonet. It makes an excellent fighting knife and it's made out of steel that will put just about any modern knife to shame.
Old 01-20-2014, 09:12 PM
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8mm, .30-06, 7.62X51 are those which many might need to exact sufficient force upon a target to render it no longer effective?

However, many of us who know how to shoot and place the shot to count, can use pistol rounds for the job.
Old 01-20-2014, 11:16 PM
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Originally Posted by Marlin94 View Post
I am a huge fan of the 357 revolver/ lever action combo. However I have tried shooting through a 4" log with the 357 magnum and it didn't make it through so I know these rounds are lethal but not the best penetrators on solid objects.
I wonder if 180 grain castcore would do the trick.
Old 01-21-2014, 06:55 AM
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I would change every spring on it. Then you won't have to worry about it for another 50 years. I would also purchase an original bayonet. It makes an excellent fighting knife and it's made out of steel that will put just about any modern knife to shame.
Yup. that was one of the first things I did to each rifle. Two of them needed it badly. One had a gas piston plug that needed to be re-staked. One had a rear sight that had to be re-staked and it needed a new extractor. One had a shot out barrel and a front sight that had been filed too low. Filing the front sight is the proper way to adjust point of vertical impact when zeroing. If it's been filed too low it has to be replaced. I bought one M1 carbine off Gunbroker that was such a basket case, I had to just resell it. Point being, if you buy the WWII M1 carbine be prepared to put some work and money into it. On the up side, I now own all the needed parts, tools and knowledge to repair and maintain my families PDWs.
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Old 01-21-2014, 08:42 AM
subvetssn subvetssn is offline
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I inherited my dad's Universal .30 cal. I'm not lying when I say that it's had less than 2 boxes shot through it in 30 years. The only blemish is the scuffed blue on the ejection port. It sat in various closets in a cheap vinyl gun bag for the past 25 years and only two weeks ago did I clean it up and fire it.

I wish that I could find a use for it. But now that I have an AR, various shotguns, hand guns, long rifles, and another AR planned I don't see where it would fit. Besides, money spent on .30 ammo could get twice as much 9mm or 5.56 and I need the space in my safe.

Rather than sell it, I've approached my non gun enthusiast nephew. He wants it and so it will find a place with him. He's been thinking about getting a gun and he's my dad's only grandson (I've no plans for children), so there's both a legacy and someone who can appreciate it.

There's a fit with some people and these carbines, but I'm not one of them.

Were it a true war rifle with some collectibility, I'd no doubt hang on to it. But given that the gen 3 Universals weren't nothing to write home about, I'm content just finding a better home for it.
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