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Old 10-01-2008, 12:52 PM
arrexian arrexian is offline
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Default Crossbows in active military/police use



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Chinese traffic police (Chongqing);




Chinese military (anti-terrorism drill in Yinchuan, capital of northwest China's Ningxia Hui Autonomous Region);




Chinese SWAT (Hei Long Jiang province);







China is the emerging power and they seem to still like their crossbows. Is that just cultural or will it spread? Do crossbows already exist elsewhere in State forces, somewhere Western? Aside from silence, what are the advantages or disadvantages? One source describes that the ruling rural PLA forces do not want guns in the hands of locals or police and so this has been a compromise in some areas. Anyway, I found the whole topic sort of whack so made this thread
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Old 10-01-2008, 10:49 PM
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They may like their crossbows, but they are really only effective when you have a sheep-like unarmed populous, a huge army and policeforce that you must arm for cheap, and thousands of armored main battle tanks at the ready to roll over your citizens if they get a 2x4 with a nail in it, and overrun your crossbowmen.
Old 10-02-2008, 12:48 AM
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Don't discount the stealth ability of these crossbows.
For example, in Iraq or elsewhere, if your force was advancing from building to building and didn't want the enemy to know exactly where you are, you can take out their more perephery defenses (more lightly defended outlying positions), to allow your main force to move in to the heart of where the enemy is stationed without alerting them. Crossbows would be ideal for this because of their quietness and stealthiness.
There are many tactical situations that lend itself to a silent, quick and yet deadly assault that the crossbow and other such weapons can accomplish.
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Old 10-02-2008, 12:50 AM
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Originally Posted by charlieb View Post
Don't discount the stealth ability of these crossbows.
For example, in Iraq or elsewhere, if your force was advancing from building to building and didn't want the enemy to know exactly where you are, you can take out their more perephery defenses (more lightly defended outlying positions), to allow your main force to move in to the heart of where the enemy is stationed without alerting them. Crossbows would be ideal for this because of their quietness and stealthiness.
There are many tactical situations that lend itself to a silent, quick and yet deadly assault that the crossbow and other such weapons can accomplish.
I think for distance, accuracy and stopping power, a suppressed sniper rifle is superior to a crossbow in most applications I can imagine.
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Old 10-02-2008, 06:09 AM
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Originally Posted by Rutger View Post
They may like their crossbows, but they are really only effective when you have a sheep-like unarmed populous, a huge army and policeforce that you must arm for cheap, and thousands of armored main battle tanks at the ready to roll over your citizens if they get a 2x4 with a nail in it, and overrun your crossbowmen.
I think your way off in the assumption that the crossbows are being supplied because the army are short on Ak47s. At least I get that impression of your view, as you say the army are badly armed and the crossbow men would be overrun by people with nails through planks. The plank weilders would be shot dead with AKs before the tanks rolled. It would make sense that the police would all be given crossbows (although this is only happening in one traffic division of one province from what I know) because the army doesn't want a strong police force. But most police are carrying pistols in other provinces. The Ak has been the standard carry in the Chinese armed forced for decades too. The anti terror team and SWAT branches are going to be the most well equipped of all the Chinese army, yet despite the foot soldiers carrying AKs they are giving crossbows to certain special units. I doubt somehow it's due to economics!

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Originally Posted by Rutger View Post
I think for distance, accuracy and stopping power, a suppressed sniper rifle is superior to a crossbow in most applications I can imagine.
Good point the active western equivilant is a silenced rifle. But I think the Chinese can afford some supressors too, especially for their special units. Crossbows can be effective to impressive distances (those I understand are normal over ironsights with an AK at max, like 100m), they have no recoil and also use a munition which can be modified to weigh significantly more than the heaviest bullets (although the range for engagement would be reduced thus). Not to mention that explosive devices can be attached to crossbows, whereas I hear of no supressed M203 grenade launchers (or are there?) Do supressed rifles still give off a muzzle flash also? The last person I'd want to be in the 2nd picture would be the guy with the crossbow. Nevertheless the fact the crossbow is a mixed element with these firearms demonstrates some use. Perhaps the desired effect is a psychological one, one particular to China more than elsewhere.

Last edited by arrexian; 10-02-2008 at 07:02 AM.. Reason: responding to both comments
Old 10-02-2008, 11:54 PM
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Your interpretation of my point is actually reversed. My first point was that the Chinese army is so well armed, that they can afford to add additional, front-line personnel with crossbows, because there population is unarmed, so a) they can get away with it b) they have enough firepower to back it up that if things start to go badly for the inexpensive to operate crossbowmen, that they can haul out the tanks, machine guns, nukes and poisonous snakes.

To say they have enough resources to be fully equipped, I take exception to. Yes, they have the worlds largest and second most well equipped (next to the USA) with 1,000,000 man standing army. However, I would believe the crossbow is a cost-effective means of arming ADDITIONAL people for support roles, like Traffic Cops, who otherwise would have nothing.

My second point; I totally disagree that there is a tactical advantage to crossbows over gunpowder weapons. They are heavy as hell, they shoot one shot at a time and take precious seconds to reload. The bolts are heavy and slow compared to bullets, and ballistically, they have a limited effective range, are easily defeated by body armor, a poor trajectory arc, and are not as accurate, because they are larger heavier projectiles, they are more susceptible to interference from things such as wind.

I am not knocking the crossbow. I am saying it is a poor choice relative to other alternative offensive and defensive weapons.

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Originally Posted by arrexian View Post
I think your way off in the assumption that the crossbows are being supplied because the army are short on Ak47s. At least I get that impression of your view, as you say the army are badly armed and the crossbow men would be overrun by people with nails through planks. The plank weilders would be shot dead with AKs before the tanks rolled. It would make sense that the police would all be given crossbows (although this is only happening in one traffic division of one province from what I know) because the army doesn't want a strong police force. But most police are carrying pistols in other provinces. The Ak has been the standard carry in the Chinese armed forced for decades too. The anti terror team and SWAT branches are going to be the most well equipped of all the Chinese army, yet despite the foot soldiers carrying AKs they are giving crossbows to certain special units. I doubt somehow it's due to economics!



Good point the active western equivilant is a silenced rifle. But I think the Chinese can afford some supressors too, especially for their special units. Crossbows can be effective to impressive distances (those I understand are normal over ironsights with an AK at max, like 100m), they have no recoil and also use a munition which can be modified to weigh significantly more than the heaviest bullets (although the range for engagement would be reduced thus). Not to mention that explosive devices can be attached to crossbows, whereas I hear of no supressed M203 grenade launchers (or are there?) Do supressed rifles still give off a muzzle flash also? The last person I'd want to be in the 2nd picture would be the guy with the crossbow. Nevertheless the fact the crossbow is a mixed element with these firearms demonstrates some use. Perhaps the desired effect is a psychological one, one particular to China more than elsewhere.
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Old 10-03-2008, 12:18 AM
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Only applications of a crossbow I can see is, stealth missions by Navy Seals, or hunting game by special forces on long term covert missions where silence needs to be maintained, and standard supply lines are unavailable.
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Old 10-03-2008, 12:53 PM
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Originally Posted by Rutger View Post
Your interpretation of my point is actually reversed. My first point was that the Chinese army is so well armed, that they can afford to add additional, front-line personnel with crossbows, because there population is unarmed, so a) they can get away with it b) they have enough firepower to back it up that if things start to go badly for the inexpensive to operate crossbowmen, that they can haul out the tanks, machine guns, nukes and poisonous snakes.
Okay well that is a different point to the one I interpreted, sorry for the mixup. I was speaking in terms of what I deducted to be your view. Perhaps
the logic for arming traffic cops with crossbows is indeed because they can get away with it and IMO it has a particular cultural effect over there.
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Originally Posted by Rutger View Post
To say they have enough resources to be fully equipped, I take exception to. Yes, they have the worlds largest and second most well equipped (next to the USA) with 1,000,000 man standing army. However, I would believe the crossbow is a cost-effective means of arming ADDITIONAL people for support roles, like Traffic Cops, who otherwise would have nothing.
And the SWAT and Anti terror squads? There's no additional, pointless elements in those teams. There is one province where the local PLA are forcing police to switch from pistols to crossbows, afaik. It isn't the case they had or have nothing. And a suppressor is much more cost effective than the compound bows in the pictures. I have purchased both in my life, one was cheap and the other cost an arm and a leg.
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Originally Posted by Rutger View Post
They are heavy as hell

they shoot one shot at a time and take precious seconds to reload.

The bolts are heavy and slow compared to bullets, and ballistically, they have a limited effective range

easily defeated by body armor

a poor trajectory arc

not as accurate, because they are larger heavier projectiles

they are more susceptible to interference from things such as wind.
All good points but not really a suggestion throughout as to why these crossbows are being used. Although to play devil's advocate, as you perhaps are;
1) A .50 barrett is more heavy than a compound bow, surely. I don't hear of many people sniping with a barrett standing up either, or on the run. I've not fired a .50 barrett but I assume prone is the best position because the sheer force would blow you off your feet, leaving aside reduced accuracy.
2)There are repeat crossbows, since the turn of the last millenia afaik. This aside, I don't think the idea is for the crossbow guy to be the first into any hostile building, at the front. It is a support role, as you say. Btw don't .50 barretts fire one shot at a time, with precious reloading? At least, some sniper element weapons certainly do.
3) The bolt being heavy can be an extremely positive thing as long as the range of engagement is shorted correctly so that the impact power equals (or is even greater than a regular bolt at long distance)
4) Sniper rifles have a limited range too. All firearms do. Yes gunpowder can project further than crossbow tech. Didn't say otherwise!
5) At the same distances as both firearms are capable of there is nothing to say a crossbow is less accurate. That reminds me of when people say an Ak is more accurate than an air rifle at the same range. A crossbow, like an air rifle, has bugger all recoil. This means you can fire outside of prone as stated and also means you have increased accuracy.
6) Easily defeated? Stand 10m in front of a sharp broadheaded bolt fired from a 200ft lber, with your best kelvar, and let me know how it goes. 150ft lbers go through brick walls and cars. There is 100% a distance and firing condition under which someone can take being shot with a barrett .50, wearing kelvar. Who knows how many miles. Point is; if the guy is 50meters off do you NEED the .50 barrett by comparison?
7) As with any firearm wind must be taken into account. One can choose the weight of their bolt; more or less heavy than a .50. Bolts can be light. Then they twist in the wind. Wind effects all projectiles of all nature, if they don't have a controlled jet on the back.

There are some tactical advantages (no flash, supressed explosives launching etc.) The reason I've listed them is not to suggest gunpower is obsolete and an ancient technology can offer more; but simply to try and analyse this bizarre situation in China. Like I say up above, I'd take the crossbow last before any of the guns. In general of course gunpower weapons have a general tactical advantage over crossbows. Won't see me disagreeing there, or stating otherwise.. Just trying to guess why these weapons are not just being used as a traffic cop thing in one province but actively accross different special attack units (attack units which I am quite sure have suppressors!)
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Old 10-03-2008, 12:58 PM
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OK.
Fact time here.
Arrows are ineffective in most sentry removal situations.
They rely mostly on blood loss to do their thing and the last thing you want in a stealth situation is a bleeding sentry screaming his lungs out and triggering his weapon.
Sorry, crossbows are really cool and super wicked looking but strictly armchair mall ninja wet dream material.
Please don't let's talk about' but if you hit 'em in the head'........
A silenced firearm would be the urban advancement tool if you were not willing or able to get close enough to use a 3 lb cross peen hammer or a Ka-Bar.
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Old 10-03-2008, 01:11 PM
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Originally Posted by Brother Buck View Post
OK.
Fact time here.
Sorry, crossbows are really cool and super wicked looking but strictly armchair mall ninja wet dream material.



Well I was going to keep relinking them but sod it, you saw the images Buck. Fact time; crossbows are not strictly armchair mall ninja wet dream material. They were deadly weapons and remain deadly weapons. They are employed by the most industrially rich nation on earth, a nation which the US owes big time to and which will eventually crown it. You just like recoil and overkill, which ain't all that surprising buddy.
Old 10-03-2008, 01:18 PM
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So you have _____ military experience?
I'm sure the Chicoms are happy to see heir propaganda photos still work on the simple minded and easily impressed.
Twit.
Old 10-03-2008, 01:21 PM
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So you have _____ military experience?
I'm sure the Chicoms are happy to see heir propaganda photos still work on the simple minded and easily impressed.
Twit.
I was brought up in a military school, learning each and every thursday what the teachers (TA reservists mostly) had to say. I was packed off to bootcamp on 3 summers too. I was firing live rounds out of machine guns and performing blank firing ops when you were graffiteeing the toilets and smoking cigs. Somehow I've finally seen my arse with "military experience". I got what I needed and wouldn't want to sell my conscience voluntarily thereafter. Oh this is a big comeback for me calling you a trendy christian. I remember why you have an axe to grind There's your derail, enjoy

PS, what are you talking about propaganda photos? I read about the traffic story years ago, the other ones are newer. But they are true. Did you watch the video? It is happening. I'd love to see some reasoning from you.
Old 10-03-2008, 01:41 PM
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I was brought up in a military school, learning each and every thursday what the teachers (TA reservists mostly) had to say. I was packed off to bootcamp on 3 summers too.
Ummm....no, humping some reservists leg is not what I'm talking about junior.
My wife was a Sergeant in the ROTC in Philippines too; she has no military experience to speak of really.
Your mommy and daddy sending you to kiddie camp to get rid of you don't count either.


Quote:
I was firing live rounds out of machine guns and performing blank firing ops when you were graffiteeing the toilets and smoking cigs.
Actually ****ant, I was dodging live incoming hostile fire when you were still grunting green into your nappy.
I can tell you from real experience you step a touch more lively around live grenades than the flash bangs they toss in Boot.

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Somehow I've finally seen my arse with "military experience". I got what I needed and wouldn't want to sell my conscience voluntarily thereafter.
? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?

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Oh this is a big comeback for me calling you a trendy christian. I remember why you have an axe to grind There's your derail, enjoy
WTF are you talking about?
Now this becomes a religious discussion I am not party to?

Quote:
PS, what are you talking about propaganda photos? I read about the traffic story years ago, the other ones are newer. But they are true. Did you watch the video? It is happening. I'd love to see some reasoning from you.
Ummm......so the Chinese traffic nazis terrorize their sheep with arrows.
This takes nothing away from what I said.
It propaganda.
Crossbows are not effective at sentry removal.
Old 10-03-2008, 02:10 PM
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Originally Posted by Brother Buck View Post
Ummm....no, humping some reservists leg is not what I'm talking about junior.
My wife was a Sergeant in the ROTC in Philippines too; she has no military experience to speak of really.
Your mommy and daddy sending you to kiddie camp to get rid of you don't count either.
You say what ____ experience do you have. I give the honest response, undeterred that you want to derail a thread made for the reasoning for reintroduction of crossbows in the State apparatus. Unlike some, I don't concoct lies about a Rambo past, to give my words more credance. Who would lie to the extent they'd set them up for the kind of fall which has now occured? For reference; British army bases run by British soldiers are not kiddie camps. You see, there was no equivilent in Britain for the kiddie boot camps you have there... those ones for the fu*k up US kids who need their average cocktail dose of uncle sam's head cure. The nearest equivilent is sending your kid to a private military orientated school, full time. Then, summer camps are available to all voluntarily. I did that voluntarily at the time. It was the only place we could fire machine guns (British army land). Now I gave the military experience I had and if you do not consider wearing full fatigues, which must be kept pristine, keeping an a rifle on you all day at school, marching around the school singing the national anthem, firing of live rounds on military bases and sleeping in barracks for weeks on the same timetable as some real recruits using us for ambush practice, learning the ranks, seeing dumbass fellow pupils get their heads stamped on by old men for NDing, learning tactical manouevres by lecture and practice, sleeping in forests, learning the physics of weapon ballistics and range, going abroad for outdoor training under military discipline, not getting when to decide to ****, eating military food in MREs and army bases and so on and so forth as an unqualifying response to "_____ military experience" then this simplemindedness is on you. Everyone I know who went straight from the school gates to the army check in said basic was no different to the worst of the **** we had. At no point did I invent a war story. What horror I know from war was related to me by a disturbed family member. That's all.
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Actually ****ant, I was dodging live incoming hostile fire when you were still grunting green into your nappy.
I can tell you from real experience you step a touch more lively around live grenades than the flash bangs they toss in Boot.
I wasn't talking about age, you see Buck. I know you're old and ****ed about that too. I was speaking of relative age. When I was firing machine guns and carrying out pitchblack blank ops with ***** flashbangs blinding 13 year olds you were in the toilets graffeeting and smoking cigs. The statement stands, cowboy. Maybe you were getting all messed up upstairs, when I was a child doing these exercises. I didn't incinuate otherwise. I never once said I knew anything about a 1v1 hostile situation in a State lead gunpowder kinda context. You just wanted to splice that in, whether it is true or not on your part, to continue this planned derail. So I shall march in tandom with this BS and continue.

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WTF are you talking about?
Now this becomes a religious discussion I am not party to?
I am just incinuating you have had a chip on your shoulder since. You didn't take it well then. Plus you don't like me pointing out that China isn't some 3rd world hole economically or militarily, but for some reason they reemploy crossbows this centry. At no point has Chinese State media or otherwise implied to me this is a cultural thing. I made that argument. Really I'm repeating every time I've posted that there may be no tactical logic for crossbows at all. It may just be cultural. Or a chinky thing as you'd rather say.
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Originally Posted by Brother Buck View Post
Ummm......so the Chinese traffic nazis terrorize their sheep with arrows.
This takes nothing away from what I said.
It propaganda.
Crossbows are not effective at sentry removal.
The SWAT and anti terror units are not up against unarmed people. There are some serious problems in China, ones that have always existed. Armed conflicts in breakaway areas that are of not of the same ethnicity. So the sheep logic can't apply to the targets special attack army and police units are locating. It's good to engage back on the topic, I see you edited that in just now. So; "It propadanga" you say, oh wise one. Alright, that chimes rather the same as why I suggest it is for cultural reasons. Looks like the old china will shine culturally through into the new powerful one. I think the China thing could be a bigger sticking point for you, than is my lack of being shot overseas for a rich invisible guy's wallet. Crossbows are not effective at sentry removal? Why? Compared to a silenced .50 barrett okay, fine. But your vision of a squiriming guy on the guy is the guy who got shot with a "chav pistol", or a pistol crossbow, firing at like 50ft lbs and a diddy target bolt. And yes, you can aim for the head. I aim for head sized circles at 80 yards and succeed. Draw on a body shaped thing and I will still hit the head sized object again and again. It is easy, it's a lazy man's bow and an assassin nation's guild. Point, pull. Like a.... rifle. You guessed it. Close up, 450 or 500fps is a fast speed. It isn't a super dooper fast speed, that falls you and makes you feel tough, but it's fast and it would certainly nail a sentry. Why would he be rolling shouting out to the rest if they were cyanide tipped or otherwise?
Old 10-03-2008, 03:32 PM
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If my choice is a .30cal fired from a semi-auto rifle and a crossbow. No matter how advanced to kill someone quick I'll take a rifle. I think a bow or a crossbow can be used fro a quick kill am I going to spend the years that would take to get good enough and strong enough to kill a quickly a guy with a one no. I figure it's still that they are short on money or supplies haven't come in and they are practicing with them till there rifles show up. Or worse they know something that we don't know about how the last war will be fought.

I believe a bows/crossbows is an affective killing weapon. Ninja, Samurai, Mongols warrior and the English Long Bow. Now the point has to be made all of these guys lived and breathed the weapon that was their life pure and simple. I have other concerns in my life I don't have time to practice as much as they did. So I use a gun to offset the lack of practice and really the bow and crossbow has as the club been replaced by the gun. Remember at one point the club with a rock tied to it was the top level then replaced by the bow, guns have replaced the bow and the old evolve or die. I'd use a bow for hunting small/large game and save my rifle rounds for "problems" when I need a quick kill. Now if they ever take my guns away a Bow at 60 LBS draw weight sounds better to me then a club with a rock tied to it.
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Old 10-03-2008, 04:17 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by arrexian View Post
You say what ____ experience do you have. I give the honest response, undeterred that you want to derail a thread made for the reasoning for reintroduction of crossbows in the State apparatus. Unlike some, I don't concoct lies about a Rambo past, to give my words more credance. Who would lie to the extent they'd set them up for the kind of fall which has now occured? For reference; British army bases run by British soldiers are not kiddie camps. You see, there was no equivilent in Britain for the kiddie boot camps you have there... those ones for the fu*k up US kids who need their average cocktail dose of uncle sam's head cure. The nearest equivilent is sending your kid to a private military orientated school, full time. Then, summer camps are available to all voluntarily. I did that voluntarily at the time. It was the only place we could fire machine guns (British army land). Now I gave the military experience I had and if you do not consider wearing full fatigues, which must be kept pristine, keeping an a rifle on you all day at school, marching around the school singing the national anthem, firing of live rounds on military bases and sleeping in barracks for weeks on the same timetable as some real recruits using us for ambush practice, learning the ranks, seeing dumbass fellow pupils get their heads stamped on by old men for NDing, learning tactical manouevres by lecture and practice, sleeping in forests, learning the physics of weapon ballistics and range, going abroad for outdoor training under military discipline, not getting when to decide to ****, eating military food in MREs and army bases and so on and so forth as an unqualifying response to "_____ military experience" then this simplemindedness is on you. Everyone I know who went straight from the school gates to the army check in said basic was no different to the worst of the **** we had. At no point did I invent a war story. What horror I know from war was related to me by a disturbed family member. That's all.
Unfortunately your argument is plainly false.
I'm not talking about dayschool for over privileged British kids either.
When I say military experience I mean real paid professional military.
End of.

Quote:
I wasn't talking about age, you see Buck. I know you're old and ****ed about that too. I was speaking of relative age. When I was firing machine guns and carrying out pitchblack blank ops with ***** flashbangs blinding 13 year olds you were in the toilets graffeeting and smoking cigs. The statement stands, cowboy. Maybe you were getting all messed up upstairs, when I was a child doing these exercises. I didn't incinuate otherwise. I never once said I knew anything about a 1v1 hostile situation in a State lead gunpowder kinda context. You just wanted to splice that in, whether it is true or not on your part, to continue this planned derail. So I shall march in tandom with this BS and continue.
Haven't quite hit the dark side of 40 yet, being I'm still having a ball I can't say I'm ****ed about my age, unlike you I don't fear it.
Things I do know about from experience of the like I was there kind.
Armed conflict with actual people who move and shoot back.
Firing automatic weapons at those types....not just hay bails in a field.
See I read a post and responded, you are bent because I didn't howl in blind stupid agreement.



Quote:
I am just incinuating you have had a chip on your shoulder since. You didn't take it well then.

OK, step away from the glue.
Since when... take WHAT well exactly?
I'll restate my previous question on this particular fantasy of yours.
WTF are you talking about ? ! ?

Quote:
Plus you don't like me pointing out that China isn't some 3rd world hole economically or militarily, but for some reason they reemploy crossbows this centry.
Well, last time I was in China I saw lots of things there like open sewers and poverty (yes the workers paradise has lots of poverty) so, though they are presenting themselves as a superpower and may very well be one in a numeric sense they are still a third world hole by and large.
Deal with it.
You seem to have serious issues with facts.
Just because you are a Socialist and admire tyranny doesn't polish the turd.
What is not liked and who is not liking it is all you babycakes.
Some one here not you said sentry removal.
I pointed out facts.
You got your wares in a knot.
Unclench dude, you have spent too much time looking in the mirror, it ain't all about you or directed there.

Quote:
At no point has Chinese State media or otherwise implied to me this is a cultural thing. I made that argument.
Errrrr?
I said you implied a cultural aspect?
Where did I mention cultural aspects?

Quote:
Really I'm repeating every time I've posted that there may be no tactical logic for crossbows at all. It may just be cultural. Or a chinky thing as you'd rather say.
Dude you seriously need to get your snot locker out of that adhesive bottle...I mean it.
Where, anywhere did I say a crossbow was a cultural thing and where, anywhere did I make a statement even resembling "a chinky thing" as you falsely accuse me of rather saying.
You know exactly **** about my druthers pee wee.

Quote:
The SWAT and anti terror units are not up against unarmed people.
Yeah and were we able I would gladly attend a Chicom swat sentry removal and lay greenback down that a crossbow used would cause more trouble that it was worth.
About the time you chest thunk and guy with an AK and he:
Starts screaming bloody murder.
or
Triggers his Afghan supplied AK you element of surpise is history.
I suspect the Chinese are a touch smarter than that.

Quote:
There are some serious problems in China, ones that have always existed. Armed conflicts in breakaway areas that are of not of the same ethnicity. So the sheep logic can't apply to the targets special attack army and police units are locating.
Dude, who said otherwise?
Toluene is bad for the little grey cells bro.

Quote:
It's good to engage back on the topic, I see you edited that in just now.
Testers or Rugby?....the epoxy of choice?
I edited nothing....see.....no edit tags....that was my original statement and it stands. No edit, if you truly think you see one there is a problem on your part.
Pictoral illustrations of crossbows in military or police use is propaganda.
Crossbows are scary.
They are cruel in a civil or military context.

Quote:
So; "It propadanga" you say, oh wise one. Alright, that chimes rather the same as why I suggest it is for cultural reasons. Looks like the old china will shine culturally through into the new powerful one. I think the China thing could be a bigger sticking point for you, than is my lack of being shot overseas for a rich invisible guy's wallet.
OK since you absolutely insist on interjecting a cultural argument here, yes, the Chinese have a history of crossbow use.
They also still think powdered bear gall bladder will make your penis hard.
Happy?
You got to introduce a cultural aspect.
Feel better?
Problem is I simply pointed out that crossbows are not a practical weapon.
Culture is irrelevant to that.



Quote:
Crossbows are not effective at sentry removal? Why? Compared to a silenced .50 barrett okay, fine. But your vision of a squiriming guy on the guy is the guy who got shot with a "chav pistol", or a pistol crossbow, firing at like 50ft lbs and a diddy target bolt. And yes, you can aim for the head. I aim for head sized circles at 80 yards and succeed. Draw on a body shaped thing and I will still hit the head sized object again and again. It is easy, it's a lazy man's bow and an assassin nation's guild. Point, pull. Like a.... rifle. You guessed it. Close up, 450 or 500fps is a fast speed. It isn't a super dooper fast speed, that falls you and makes you feel tough, but it's fast and it would certainly nail a sentry. Why would he be rolling shouting out to the rest if they were cyanide tipped or otherwise?
OMG!
That IS funny.
You have a real future as a comedian.
Actually if aggrandizing were a paid profession you would be the Bill Gates of it.
.50 Barrett? do you customarily win arguments by blowing sh*t all out of proportion?
Cyanide tips?
DUDE YOU HAVE PLAYED WAY TO MANY VIDEO GAMES!
Chav pistol?
Speed has little to do with it.
At those speeds really nothing at all as immobilization by ballistic projectile is acheived either through destruction of the central nervous system(brain and spine) or though systemic disruption by hydrostatic shock.
There is no hydrostatic shock at under 2000 feet per second.
Arrows not placed properly in the CNS rely on blood loss.
So you are a bow hunter are you?
I suppose telling you I've done that too would evoke accusations of prevarication on my part from you but here goes anyway.....maybe some one will learn something.
Shoot a mule deer through the upper respiratory system.
See said deer run at a dead sprint into an aspen forest and follow a blood trail in excess of 200 yards, then come back and tell me all about how quickly and silently it died.
DO that to a man and unlike deer he is likely to scream if he can and like the deer will try and escape or fight back.

I too have a few crossbows, nice once made in your own country.
I can make head shots under no stress too.
Ohhhh yeah....one of them is even called a "Commando"! It breaks in half to cock. That makes me all sentry ready!
News: so does a ball peen hammer and a silenced MKII.
One day you can take your armchair commando butt out and draw down on a real person and then come on back and tell us how easy it was and how flawlessly you performed.

I was not in any way speaking of some toy pistol.
I was talking about those Horton bows in the pictures.
If you hit someone other than in the head the bolt won't kill immediately no matter how you fantasize that it will.
It will sail right through whoever it hits and they will bleed and and scream and pull triggers and thrash............ noise will happen.

That brings me to the traffic cop aspect.
Crossbows in an urban environment?
HOLY SH*T what professional civic irresponsibility!
A 9mm or .40 caliber bullet might stay within the body of the guy you intend to shoot.
A bolt from a compound crossbow simply absolutely will not.
Take your crossbow(if you actually have one) to a junk yard and shoot the back end of a good sized car with it.
I can almost guarantee the bolt goes through the trunk, through the seats and into some portion of the dashboard or out a window with enough zing to kill anything it hits.
It is not a police weapon and use thereof is terrorism.


Wanna know how a Chicom soldier is more likely to take out a sentry if not with a firearm or a blade?
With a spade.

Serously man, pull your head out.
Old 10-03-2008, 05:47 PM
arrexian arrexian is offline
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Originally Posted by Brother Buck View Post
Unfortunately your argument is plainly false.
I'm not talking about dayschool for over privileged British kids either.
When I say military experience I mean real paid professional military.
End of.
Well distinguish your language because my response was adequate in that it was _____ military experience. Everything I described clearly fits military experience. If you did you childhood through it you would think the same, no matter what came after. People talk about going on 10 day holiday tactical programs here, as military experience. I suppose each time it riles up someone who is either an exagerator of their "real paid" military experience or just angry there was no war film about their efforts which left them either physically messed up or psychologically unstable.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brother Buck View Post
See I read a post and responded, you are bent because I didn't howl in blind stupid agreement.
No I just responded with the same force you outright claimed the crossbow was nothing more than an armchair warrior's wet dream etc.. But you know darn well they are killer weapons. You can make poison in all kinds of ways btw, surely you aren't for real in denying that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brother Buck View Post
Well, last time I was in China I saw lots of things there like open sewers and poverty (yes the workers paradise has lots of poverty) so, though they are presenting themselves as a superpower and may very well be one in a numeric sense they are still a third world hole by and large.
Deal with it.
You seem to have serious issues with facts.
Just because you are a Socialist and admire tyranny doesn't polish the turd.
What is not liked and who is not liking it is all you babycakes.
Just do yourself a favour and check what you quoted, then swallow and realise you just chatted bollox. Again it's about distinguishing language so you are not misunderstood. I specifically said economically and militarily. Then you go on about social issues. I specifically did not mention the masses, who suffer socially at the rise of the dragon

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brother Buck View Post
Some one here not you said sentry removal.
I pointed out facts.
What facts? What _____ experience of killing someone with a crossbow do you have? You ignore the logic of compboy, a fellow archer and someone clearly with a perception of history. Crossbows were killer weapons for prolonged periods. And accurate on horseback.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Brother Buck View Post
Errrrr?
I said you implied a cultural aspect?
Where did I mention cultural aspects?
..

You say this is just propaganda. The last time I checked propaganda was a cultural product of any given State. And I'm the one that was saying crossbows were cultural to China clearly.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brother Buck View Post
Where, anywhere did I say a crossbow was a cultural thing

Pictoral illustrations of crossbows in military or police use is propaganda.
Crossbows are scary.
They are cruel in a civil or military context.

You didn't, "wtf" are you on about? I have been saying that they are to China. If this is "propaganda" then it's cultural and crossbow in nature you nut. You just find crossbows scary because they are a chinese invention and they stick to them. Simple. I expect Chinese would find a laser mounted NV scoped laser dotted x500 scope on a .50 to be more cruel.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brother Buck View Post
OK since you absolutely insist on interjecting a cultural argument here, yes, the Chinese have a history of crossbow use.
They also still think powdered bear gall bladder will make your penis hard.
Happy?
You got to introduce a cultural aspect.
Feel better?


Problem is I simply pointed out that crossbows are not a practical weapon.
Culture is irrelevant to that.
And throughout this thread I've given both views. Tried to demonstrate uses which gunpowder weapons aren't capable of and that's backed up by history and modern crime. I have said time and again I would not want to be the crossbow weilder in the 2nd picture. Okay you say it is not practical in today's world with what is available by comparison, that's fine. But it is deadly.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brother Buck View Post
Cyanide tips?
DUDE YOU HAVE PLAYED WAY TO MANY VIDEO GAMES!
Maybe in actual fact you are the video gamer. Maybe your whole thing is BS. Anyway check history. I have a degree in it and read of poison bolts and arrows a lot. But I didn't need a degree. It's common common knowledge since ancient times. Even the indian navy used cyanide tipped crossbows till the mid 1950s afaik.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brother Buck View Post
I too have a few crossbows, nice once made in your own country.
So now you own crossbowS. Not only that, and the rambo stories but you hunt with it. Strange, for a guy who earlier was of the opinion that crossbows were "really cool and super wicked looking but strictly armchair mall ninja wet dream material." Are you one of those, a mall ninja? What's the psychology about ranting about what you are again?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brother Buck View Post
Chav pistol?
Speed has little to do with it.
At those speeds really nothing at all as immobilization by ballistic projectile is acheived either through destruction of the central nervous system(brain and spine) or though systemic disruption by hydrostatic shock.
There is no hydrostatic shock at under 2000 feet per second.
Arrows not placed properly in the CNS rely on blood loss.
A chav pistol is the kind of story you are basing your views of crossbow killings/injuries upon. Small time gangster ones. Not what crossbows did across the globe through time. Immobilization before the super gunpowder era is about shot placement, not just munition. In any animal. And there are broadheads that lock shut on inner contact. With the continued force the bolt then head crumple and tear a mess back exiting. That increases the chances of immobilization, in terms of what modern tech has brought to an ancient one. And yeah it isn't all about speed. An air gun can fire at 500fps. But the munitions weigh a penny, not upto 500gr. Impact ft lbs is the issue to immobilization. It can be maximised with bolts as hollowpoints do.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brother Buck View Post
I can make head shots under no stress too.
Ohhhh yeah....one of them is even called a "Commando"! It breaks in half to cock. That makes me all sentry ready!
People have fired crossbows in battle under greater stress that you could fathom. It is about practice. Besides if the crossbow were employed only as a distant first covert shot, the shooter is under less stress. It is not a CQB weapon clearly, or a defence weapon. It is a starter.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brother Buck View Post
News: so does a ball peen hammer and a silenced MKII.
One day you can take your armchair commando butt out and draw down on a real person and then come on back and tell us how easy it was and how flawlessly you performed.
With a crossbow? This isn't about me, but real and paid trained Chinese military and police. Why don't you come back on and tell us how easy or hard it is after you do it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brother Buck View Post
I was not in any way speaking of some toy pistol.
I was talking about those Horton bows in the pictures.
If you hit someone other than in the head the bolt won't kill immediately no matter how you fantasize that it will.
It will sail right through whoever it hits and they will bleed and and scream and pull triggers and thrash............ noise will happen.
1) How do you know that shooting a man in the heart with a 500gr giant spike that's even bigger in circumference than the said heart and which will crunch and deform rather than pass through? Have you used or borrowed or even seen modern broadheads?
2) Cyanide tipped
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brother Buck View Post
That brings me to the traffic cop aspect.
Crossbows in an urban environment?
HOLY SH*T what professional civic irresponsibility!
A 9mm or .40 caliber bullet might stay within the body of the guy you intend to shoot.
A bolt from a compound crossbow simply absolutely will not.
Incorrect, it depends on the circumference and weight of the projectile and then the distance fired at.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brother Buck View Post
Take your crossbow(if you actually have one) to a junk yard and shoot the back end of a good sized car with it.
I can almost guarantee the bolt goes through the trunk, through the seats and into some portion of the dashboard or out a window with enough zing to kill anything it hits.
You clearly saw the video I posted of a guy in a junk yard shooting the back end of a good sized car with precisely the results you just described. I've done impact testing myself too, but not on a car. Anyway, I am the one saying crossbows can go through brick walls and cars, why are you telling me? What are you sniffing etc
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brother Buck View Post
Wanna know how a Chicom soldier is more likely to take out a sentry if not with a firearm or a blade?
With a spade.
Yeah.
1) A crossbow is a firearm. One of the first.
2) You aren't arguing from an embittered point of view about life at all Are you really suggesting that a person has a better chance of taking an AK armed soldier at a point of elevation and defence by charging and hitting with a spade? Over a crossbow, from upto 100 meters? Again it's the first shot, in this scenario. I think you need your uncle sam military jabs/pills topped up

I must say it took some time to quote this post. And the last. My views of both sides of the issue are on the table and I couldn't give a rats about yours whoever you are as you just want to read into some sort of socialist thing. Whatever. I said from the beginning this whole issue was "whack". I've said it was "bizarre". You just want to get all heroish about it in attempting to overdo your knowledge. But you slip my friend.
Old 10-03-2008, 06:29 PM
arrexian arrexian is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Brother Buck View Post
Cyanide tips?
DUDE YOU HAVE PLAYED WAY TO MANY VIDEO GAMES!


Quote:
A MARCOS operator armed with an MP-5, grenades and crossbow. The crossbow was used for sentry elimination and silent killing with cyanide tipped arrows
Indian marine website
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Old 10-03-2008, 07:42 PM
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OK guys,

It's been fun but I'm personally interested in WHY the CHICOM police special units might be issuing crossbows.

What I am not interested in is having to trawl through a couple of pages of a ****ing contest.

Although I have read with interest some great on-topic posts from both of you in the past (which I have learned from), you both need to show some professionalism in posting and take it to PM or email.
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Old 10-03-2008, 08:20 PM
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Apocalypse Now Apocalypse Now is offline
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Quote:
OK.
Fact time here.
Arrows are ineffective in most sentry removal situations.
They rely mostly on blood loss to do their thing and the last thing you want in a stealth situation is a bleeding sentry screaming his lungs out and triggering his weapon.
Sorry, crossbows are really cool and super wicked looking but strictly armchair mall ninja wet dream material.
Please don't let's talk about' but if you hit 'em in the head'.....
I would think that generally,the only visible part of a senrty in a guard tower or on the deck of a ship ,would be his head and upper torso(lungs and heart)and would be a fairly simple target for a weapons expert like a N. SEAL w/ a crossbow. I'm sure ,through out (special forces)history ,that this tactic has been used in certain covert missions. Just my opinion.
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