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Old 08-02-2012, 10:40 PM
4570 4570 is offline
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Okay, so....
we picked up a 20x40 "A" style metal quonset hut (meaning, it has vertical walls up to about 7 ft, and then it curves to the peak) off of craiglist for a few grand and are planning on building it as a garage/apartment on our BOL.

25ft of it will be living space, then the other 15ft will be garage...both separated by a wall obviously.

So, my first problem is insulation.
From what I understand, metal tends to condensate very easily when it is really hot outside/cold inside...or vice versa...you get the idea
So, if I use conventional fiberglass batt behind some drywall up against the metal, and it will get wet everytime it condensates...behind the wall no less which would suck.

So, I'm thinking closed cell foam spray, applied by a professional...right onto the inside of the metal.
I'm thinking this will prevent the inside of the metal from getting wet due to condesation? Or am I totally off my rocker?

Of course, this foam spray application is not cheap by any stretch...but it just may be our only and best choice?

It should be noted that we want a high R value on the living space. This is actually pretty darn important to us.

Okay, now the second question is we plan to build this on a concrete foundation, fiber reinforced along with rebar and WWM, 4 inch thick and the perimeter footer will be about 2ft down and 18" wide.

Now, on the sides, which is where the quonset hut will bolt too, we plan to build a 4ft high concrete block wall (with rebar and concrete inside).
Then, we will mount the quonset onto this wall.
This will give us an extra 4ft in height inside the hut, with which we plan to do a loft for more storage/living space.

Up on the loft we will have a bed/play area for the little one/and storage for our long term food...mostly 5 gal buckets...
We might have a thousand pounds of food stored up in the loft, so there will be some weight up there.
But otherwise, just a bed and some toys.
The area of the loft will be about 7ft wide by 25ft long.

So, the loft will be freestanding...in that it will not be bolted or supported in anyway by the exterior walls obviously, as they are thin galvanized metal in the case of our hut.
Soooo, I am just wondering if 4ft thick concrete pad is sufficient to support this loft?
I know the weight of the loft will be spread out, and not just concentrated in one spot of the concrete pad...
thoughts?

thanks for reading
Old 08-03-2012, 01:17 AM
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Okay, so....
we picked up a 20x40 "A" style metal quonset hut (meaning, it has vertical walls up to about 7 ft, and then it curves to the peak) off of craiglist for a few grand and are planning on building it as a garage/apartment on our BOL.

25ft of it will be living space, then the other 15ft will be garage...both separated by a wall obviously.

So, my first problem is insulation.
From what I understand, metal tends to condensate very easily when it is really hot outside/cold inside...or vice versa...you get the idea
So, if I use conventional fiberglass batt behind some drywall up against the metal, and it will get wet everytime it condensates...behind the wall no less which would suck.

So, I'm thinking closed cell foam spray, applied by a professional...right onto the inside of the metal.
I'm thinking this will prevent the inside of the metal from getting wet due to condesation? Or am I totally off my rocker?

Of course, this foam spray application is not cheap by any stretch...but it just may be our only and best choice?

It should be noted that we want a high R value on the living space. This is actually pretty darn important to us.

Okay, now the second question is we plan to build this on a concrete foundation, fiber reinforced along with rebar and WWM, 4 inch thick and the perimeter footer will be about 2ft down and 18" wide.

Now, on the sides, which is where the quonset hut will bolt too, we plan to build a 4ft high concrete block wall (with rebar and concrete inside).
Then, we will mount the quonset onto this wall.
This will give us an extra 4ft in height inside the hut, with which we plan to do a loft for more storage/living space.

Up on the loft we will have a bed/play area for the little one/and storage for our long term food...mostly 5 gal buckets...
We might have a thousand pounds of food stored up in the loft, so there will be some weight up there.
But otherwise, just a bed and some toys.
The area of the loft will be about 7ft wide by 25ft long.

So, the loft will be freestanding...in that it will not be bolted or supported in anyway by the exterior walls obviously, as they are thin galvanized metal in the case of our hut.
Soooo, I am just wondering if 4ft thick concrete pad is sufficient to support this loft?
I know the weight of the loft will be spread out, and not just concentrated in one spot of the concrete pad...
thoughts?

thanks for reading

Sounds like you it figured out. I like the block wall idea. As for the support of the loft. Really you should be OK. If you have doubt, plan on where the support post would be and in each location of them post base dig an 18" square hole 3" deeper than the rest of the base. This will give you a slab thickness of 4" everywhere but 7"+ where the support bases are located. Put a few extra pieces of rebar in the deeper support areas for added strength.

Also, make sure you put a moisture barrier on your base material and it is compacted well to minimize cracking.

Would it be a good idea to use an self applied roll on bed line to the outside of the hut sheet metal? May be a bit expensive but help with corrosion.

What is your heat source? Wood stove? Have you planned your exhaust for it?

All in all you have a neat idea planned. Nest of luck and keep us posted.
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Old 08-03-2012, 04:09 AM
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I like the idea of beefing up the load bearing places for the loft. TGI's would do the job free span endwall to garage.

When assembling the metal skin I'd use a bead of some good caulk.

Make sure the wall between house and garage is a good fire wall, same for that door.
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Old 08-03-2012, 08:49 AM
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Sounds like you it figured out. I like the block wall idea. As for the support of the loft. Really you should be OK. If you have doubt, plan on where the support post would be and in each location of them post base dig an 18" square hole 3" deeper than the rest of the base. This will give you a slab thickness of 4" everywhere but 7"+ where the support bases are located. Put a few extra pieces of rebar in the deeper support areas for added strength.

Also, make sure you put a moisture barrier on your base material and it is compacted well to minimize cracking.

Would it be a good idea to use an self applied roll on bed line to the outside of the hut sheet metal? May be a bit expensive but help with corrosion.

What is your heat source? Wood stove? Have you planned your exhaust for it?

All in all you have a neat idea planned. Nest of luck and keep us posted.

for the base under the pad we are using #57 stone, which is supposedly self compacting? Do you think we should then put poly over the gravel and then put down the rebar/WWM, and then pour?

I think the exterior of the building will be fine, as they are made to withstand the elements, and have a pretty good track record of that....
I will research that idea though.

We plan on a wood stove and the exhaust may be out of the top half of the living space endwall. We will build this endwall out of wood frame most likely, and it will be easy to accomodate any penetrations there.

However, we still need to have penetrations for the plumbing DWV...or at least one for that...and it might have to go out the top of the quonset.
Old 08-03-2012, 08:54 AM
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I like the idea of beefing up the load bearing places for the loft. TGI's would do the job free span endwall to garage.

When assembling the metal skin I'd use a bead of some good caulk.

Make sure the wall between house and garage is a good fire wall, same for that door.
thx
we arent going to free span the loft supports, but will be doing essentially load bearing walls.
This will separate the bedroom from the living room for instance.

So, there wont be a post loading a specific spot on the pad...which is why I thought I might be okay with no extra footers.

if I did do extra footers, then it would be a continuous footer running along the load bearing wall....7ft in from the perimeter of the building...and about 25 ft long.

I will try and post some plans I am making on google sketch it for you all to see

Yes, we will make sure of that it is a good firewall separating the two halves.

thx
Old 08-03-2012, 10:56 AM
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If you use the cell foam, make sure that there is nothing corrosive in it. Your idea about supporting the loft seems adequate. With the straight walls, you should be fine. With the ones with curved arches all the way to the floor [like mine], there is pressure, not only down, but outward also.

In some parts of the country, condensation is not really that much of a problem, and in some parts it is. Mine never sweats, I assume, because when it is cold it isn't humid here. They make little barbed looking things to screw onto the bolts holding the arches together that you just push the batt onto them and the barbs hold it on.

How much help do you have to put it up?
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Old 08-03-2012, 11:48 AM
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OK. If you are doing typical load nearing walls then the additional rooters are not necessary.

I am not familiar with #57 gravel. Generally, any small gravel or road base is what you would put down and then compact with a vibe plate (vibratory plate compactor cam be rented by the day at any rental store or HD rental outlets). Once the gravel is compacted you want tom put down approx 2-3 inches of sand and then compact that. Them your vapor barrier on top, then rebar and concrete. Don't put vapor barrier on top of gravel. It will puncture when walked on while installing rebar. At a minimum I'd use 10mil visqueen. Barrier can go up to 30mil but youmare not building to code most likely and would be expensive and overkill. I tend to always overbuild things so I'd probably do two layers of 10mil plastic.

Again, this would bena great project to start a "build thread". Make a thread dedicated to your project like Fepony did with his off grid house. They are typically great reading and very informative.
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Old 08-03-2012, 01:38 PM
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Rather than build a 4ft wall to sit the quonset hut on why not just buy 4ft panels from the manufacturer, those steel buildings can be customised with different sized panels and attachments. I helped a friend put his together, we found the easiest way was to build 1 whole section and stand it up, we then had a rolling scaffold to stand on while we bolted it, you'd have to physically lift a section up 4ft to get it on top of the wall.
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Old 08-03-2012, 01:40 PM
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check with your foam installer .... but over a couple of inches thick you might need some kind of support tagged into the metal wall/roof ....
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Old 08-03-2012, 01:42 PM
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If you use the cell foam, make sure that there is nothing corrosive in it. Your idea about supporting the loft seems adequate. With the straight walls, you should be fine. With the ones with curved arches all the way to the floor [like mine], there is pressure, not only down, but outward also.

In some parts of the country, condensation is not really that much of a problem, and in some parts it is. Mine never sweats, I assume, because when it is cold it isn't humid here. They make little barbed looking things to screw onto the bolts holding the arches together that you just push the batt onto them and the barbs hold it on.

How much help do you have to put it up?

hey, with the concrete foundation there will be several guys, with a few of them experienced in concrete pours.
with the assembly of the metal building itself, there will be three men, and we will use scaffolding or a man lift and rope to pull them up into place.

This will be in western NC up in the mountains. It isnt horribly humid there, but there is SOME humidity.
I didnt know about the barbed attachments you mention, and I will look them up.
And very good point about the corrosiveness of the foam spray...
But, the company I'm going to use seems to use it on metal buildings all the time, so I'm guessing theirs must be okay.
http://www.foamapplicators.net/

I've yet to call for a quote, but plan to do this in a week or so...first we need to get the pad poured and the building installed

Do you have fiberglass batt insulating your hut?
You mentioned it never sweats, so is the interior air conditioned?

thx
Old 08-03-2012, 01:50 PM
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OK. If you are doing typical load nearing walls then the additional rooters are not necessary.

I am not familiar with #57 gravel. Generally, any small gravel or road base is what you would put down and then compact with a vibe plate (vibratory plate compactor cam be rented by the day at any rental store or HD rental outlets). Once the gravel is compacted you want tom put down approx 2-3 inches of sand and then compact that. Them your vapor barrier on top, then rebar and concrete. Don't put vapor barrier on top of gravel. It will puncture when walked on while installing rebar. At a minimum I'd use 10mil visqueen. Barrier can go up to 30mil but youmare not building to code most likely and would be expensive and overkill. I tend to always overbuild things so I'd probably do two layers of 10mil plastic.

Again, this would bena great project to start a "build thread". Make a thread dedicated to your project like Fepony did with his off grid house. They are typically great reading and very informative.

http://forums.finehomebuilding.com/b...shed-rock-fill
they talk a little about the gravel...

I've done a bit of reading on concrete pours, and I've read that you dont need to compact it.

Now, so far as the plastic sheeting goes, I wonder if that is a regional thing...meaning, only needed in cold climates?

Now, it does get down to the teens occasionally at my BOL...but that isnt common, and rarely gets colder....

I also hadnt seen anything about putting sand on top of the gravel...all the stuff I'd seen just had them put the rebar on top of the gravel and then pour the concrete?

I've still got more research to do, and will also talk with the concrete guys in my area for more info.

I would do a build thread, but it would be a pretty slow build thread

I think the concrete will be poured in a month or so, then a month or so after that we will do the metal building assembly, etc...
Old 08-03-2012, 01:53 PM
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Rather than build a 4ft wall to sit the quonset hut on why not just buy 4ft panels from the manufacturer, those steel buildings can be customised with different sized panels and attachments. I helped a friend put his together, we found the easiest way was to build 1 whole section and stand it up, we then had a rolling scaffold to stand on while we bolted it, you'd have to physically lift a section up 4ft to get it on top of the wall.
good points.
I will look into the cost of each.

One possible advantage of the 4ft concrete wall is that we will then put a stone facia outside of it, and it would be pretty bullet proof....whereas the metal building wont stop much of anything.

we were planning on assembling half of the arch, then erecting it, then bracing it in place with the man lift or other, then erecting the other half, and bolting them together at the top?
Old 08-03-2012, 03:04 PM
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http://forums.finehomebuilding.com/b...shed-rock-fill
they talk a little about the gravel...

I've done a bit of reading on concrete pours, and I've read that you dont need to compact it.

Now, so far as the plastic sheeting goes, I wonder if that is a regional thing...meaning, only needed in cold climates?

Now, it does get down to the teens occasionally at my BOL...but that isnt common, and rarely gets colder....

I also hadnt seen anything about putting sand on top of the gravel...all the stuff I'd seen just had them put the rebar on top of the gravel and then pour the concrete?

I've still got more research to do, and will also talk with the concrete guys in my area for more info.

I would do a build thread, but it would be a pretty slow build thread

I think the concrete will be poured in a month or so, then a month or so after that we will do the metal building assembly, etc...


Right. If #57 is just larger diameter gravel with no fines or sand type mixed in it can't really be compacted as well as a base type material where you have sand sized to 1/2" sized aggregate mixed in.

As for the plastic. Like I said I tend to over build. Homes where I live require it. For a cabin type project it may not be totally necessary. If you are in an area where you can get heavy rains occasionally or a lot of weather that snows/thaws/snows/thaws etc, etc and the ground can get saturated then I would advise it. You may not have this situation.
Old 08-03-2012, 05:50 PM
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Right. If #57 is just larger diameter gravel with no fines or sand type mixed in it can't really be compacted as well as a base type material where you have sand sized to 1/2" sized aggregate mixed in.

As for the plastic. Like I said I tend to over build. Homes where I live require it. For a cabin type project it may not be totally necessary. If you are in an area where you can get heavy rains occasionally or a lot of weather that snows/thaws/snows/thaws etc, etc and the ground can get saturated then I would advise it. You may not have this situation.
okay, well I will be sure to consult with the local concrete guys to see if they find it necessary in our area.
It may just be a good idea, like you said, and it sounds like it doesnt take a lot of time to do.

I will definitely get pics of the property up, along with pics of the foundation work. If this thread gets old by then...which it will...I will just dig it up and add to it as I go
Old 08-03-2012, 05:52 PM
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Post photos as you progress.
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Old 08-03-2012, 08:04 PM
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hey, with the concrete foundation there will be several guys, with a few of them experienced in concrete pours.
with the assembly of the metal building itself, there will be three men, and we will use scaffolding or a man lift and rope to pull them up into place.

This will be in western NC up in the mountains. It isnt horribly humid there, but there is SOME humidity.
I didnt know about the barbed attachments you mention, and I will look them up.
And very good point about the corrosiveness of the foam spray...
But, the company I'm going to use seems to use it on metal buildings all the time, so I'm guessing theirs must be okay.
http://www.foamapplicators.net/

I've yet to call for a quote, but plan to do this in a week or so...first we need to get the pad poured and the building installed

Do you have fiberglass batt insulating your hut?
You mentioned it never sweats, so is the interior air conditioned?

thx
I didn't insulate mine. I use it for storage/workshop. No it's not air conditioned and the outside of the steel or galvalume or whatever yours is, will get really, really, really hot when the sun is its most intense. I bought a bare bones kit, but there were all kinds of accessories, none of which I thought necessary for my application. Check with Steelmaster and see if they list the insulation attachments.

Is yours 40 wide or 40 long? How many panels are there in each arch? Are the standard size pieces about 10 feet long. Mine is 56x30. I was going to make it 30 by about 45 and taller but I was putting it up by myself and the extra length of the first arch made it like a noodle to work with.

All in all I really like mine.

Oh, did you get the "erection manual" with it?
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Old 08-03-2012, 08:53 PM
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I had sprayed urethane foam put on the inside of my steel building and I wouldn't trade it for anything. That stuff is tough, a great insulator and great sound deadening. I love it. I heat the entire shop with a wood stove in the winter here in Colorado and the building has 14" sidewalls and is 40' x 88' with 5 windows. That foam is good stuff but well worth the extra money to get it put on.
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Old 08-03-2012, 10:23 PM
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I like the dense foam better, not as good of R-value but makes a strong building. Use 2" of foam sprayed on the entire inside of the steel. It seals it tight and adds a lot of strength to the steel. I have seen steel buildings with larger screw holes in the metal from the expanding and contracting. The foam should eliminate that. It provides much better protection from hail damage. Wash the inside with a pressure washer and use a good degreaser before having foam sprayed.

Where you have you living quarters, go ahead and frame it up, install a suspended ceiling and insulate walls and ceiling. The foam against the steel should protect batt insulation from moisture.

I would use foil/bubble/foil insulation under the slab. I am sold on PEX for heating. I would highly recommend floor heat.

You could pour the foundation, then the slab with a expansion strip between them to make a thermal break between heated slab and colder foundation.

You might want to consider a floor drain if your vehicle has mud or snow. You could just hose out garage.

Make sure site is well elevated so there wouldn't be any possibility of flooding.

I would insulate the outside of the foundation and block stem wall before the outside siding is installed.

Will 2' deep foundation get you down to frost line? Go down to frost line and 8"-12" might be wide enough.

For your loft, you might want a load bearing wall on both sides. If back wall is attached directly to the steel building wall, it might not support the weight. I also would put a foundation under the load bearing walls.

While you are at it, put a commercial gutter for rain collection on the eaves with water storage inside.

If you run any lines in the slab, use sch 40 if PVC and a sch 40 sleeve where it comes above the surface.

Use epoxy paint on floor to seal it.

Hope your project goes well.
Old 08-04-2012, 05:04 PM
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I didn't insulate mine. I use it for storage/workshop. No it's not air conditioned and the outside of the steel or galvalume or whatever yours is, will get really, really, really hot when the sun is its most intense. I bought a bare bones kit, but there were all kinds of accessories, none of which I thought necessary for my application. Check with Steelmaster and see if they list the insulation attachments.

Is yours 40 wide or 40 long? How many panels are there in each arch? Are the standard size pieces about 10 feet long. Mine is 56x30. I was going to make it 30 by about 45 and taller but I was putting it up by myself and the extra length of the first arch made it like a noodle to work with.

All in all I really like mine.

Oh, did you get the "erection manual" with it?

Okay, I got the manual with it, and I know what you mean about the arches immitating noodles when erecting...I'm hoping to have enough help to deal with that, but I'm sure it will be a learning experience.

mine is 20 ft wide, by 40 ft long

now, the reason yours doesnt condensate is because you dont condition the air inside.
that is my big worry with the living space part of it.

I will call the manufacturer and see what the say...but I have time for this, as we still need to get the concrete down
Old 08-04-2012, 05:18 PM
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I like the dense foam better, not as good of R-value but makes a strong building. Use 2" of foam sprayed on the entire inside of the steel. It seals it tight and adds a lot of strength to the steel. I have seen steel buildings with larger screw holes in the metal from the expanding and contracting. The foam should eliminate that. It provides much better protection from hail damage. Wash the inside with a pressure washer and use a good degreaser before having foam sprayed.

that sounds like a good plan, and I think that is the way I'm leaning...then do the suspended ceiling and insulate the interior walls...this combination should give me a great R value

Where you have you living quarters, go ahead and frame it up, install a suspended ceiling and insulate walls and ceiling. The foam against the steel should protect batt insulation from moisture.

I would use foil/bubble/foil insulation under the slab. I am sold on PEX for heating. I would highly recommend floor heat.

I will look into floor heating for sure

You could pour the foundation, then the slab with a expansion strip between them to make a thermal break between heated slab and colder foundation.

You might want to consider a floor drain if your vehicle has mud or snow. You could just hose out garage.

floor drain is an excellent idea, thanks

Make sure site is well elevated so there wouldn't be any possibility of flooding.

The elevation is a slight concern for me. But I'm not sure how I can make it more elevated? I guess I could get fill dirt moved in, or brought from a separate part of my 10 acres, and then vibrate it down with some rented construction equipment? But, then I would dig into that for the footers?

I would insulate the outside of the foundation and block stem wall before the outside siding is installed.

The block stem wall will probably get a stone facia applied to it. I was planning on just mortaring the stone directly to the block?

Will 2' deep foundation get you down to frost line? Go down to frost line and 8"-12" might be wide enough.

Yes, I was told by the inspector that 24 inches was deep enough. NC code is then a 16 inch wide footer for homes

For your loft, you might want a load bearing wall on both sides. If back wall is attached directly to the steel building wall, it might not support the weight. I also would put a foundation under the load bearing walls.

Yes, we are doing a load bearing wall, framed from wood, on both sides of the loft. No loft loads will be introduced onto the metal building itself. So, you think a footer under the load bearing walls is a good idea then?

While you are at it, put a commercial gutter for rain collection on the eaves with water storage inside.

There wont be any eaves, as it is a corrugated metal building all the way down to the foundation...I cant see how I'm going to get gutters on there for rain collection, but after it is up, I might try to figure one out

If you run any lines in the slab, use sch 40 if PVC and a sch 40 sleeve where it comes above the surface.

will do

Use epoxy paint on floor to seal it.

Hope your project goes well.
thanks, you have been a big help.

I will post pics of the project as we go along for sure...as I'm sure I'll have more questions as we go.
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anybody build a quonset hut? 4570 DIY - Do It Yourself 13 06-28-2012 04:54 AM
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New panasonic insulation might be useful gaijin42 Disaster Preparedness General Discussion 1 01-21-2011 12:31 PM
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